Some problems at about Day 25 of Veg

[Guest]

Hi Guys, I have a bit of a health problem with the girls right now and need some advice. Here's a little background before I break out the pics.

Plants are at day 25 from sprouting, they are all from seed. There are 3 Female Seeds Skunk Specials, 4 Female Seed Ice and 2 SOL Adventure mix. Until this past weekend, plants were vegged under 240 watts of mixed 6500K and 3000K flouros. As of Saturday they were moved under a 600 watt Hortilux HPS because my annual furnace inspection (rental unit) is due and my veg rack is not stealth at all.

Initailly, around day 14 or so, I had what looked like a Mag deficiency, it affected the Ice the most, the Skunk's slightly and nothing really on the AVM. I watered with Cal Mag and everything seemed good. Now, since going under the HPS, I had some issues develop quite quickly. The last couple feedings have been in the 250~ PPM range, plants have been fed Liquid Karma, Hygrozyme, Thrivealive Red and Foxfarm Big Bloom. All nutes are fed at 1/2 strength at most, with some Cal Mag on it's own once a week. I use R/O water, PH at 6.3-6.5. I give them nutrients 1-2 times a week and then water them when the pots get light/dry. Usually 2-3 waterings a week, never over watered. I have almost no tip damage on any fan leaves. Here are some pics of what is happening, I do not have the worlds best Digi so I tried to take alot of photos and pick the ones that looked the best.


In this pic You can kind of see something I have noticed since they went under the HPS, my Fan leaves seem very dry, and on some plants look almost wrinkled. I mist them at least twice a day, current temps in the box they are in are ~80 degrees constant, 50-51% RH. The box has a 6" fan venting it through the scrubber, with a passive intake of about 9"x5". Box is 3.5 feet x 3.5 feet and 6.5 feet tall. Even though my leaves seem very dry my pots are still heavy and seem to be damp still. When I mist my plants, they dry out quite quickly. I have one fan blowing over the canopy, enough to make them 'dance' a little but nothing that seems to hard on them.



Another group shot, In some light, some of the new growth seems very almost lime green? I have quite a few closet grows under my belt but this is my first full out grow, I have grown with completely organic soil mixes in the past and only fed water so I am trying to not overdue my nutrients as they are something I am not too familiar with.



The Ice especially have a real yellow tinge on some of the fam leaves, almost kind of blotchy. Here is a good shot below of what I mean:











My adventure Mix's seem a little limp, and the new growth on one of them looks burnt almost (new since being under the HPS) I had my hood about 18-20' above the canopy but have since moved it up in fear that my plants were getting a little burnt. Here is a pic of the AVM:



Lastly I have one more pic of the Ice, this plant has dark, almost grey? type blothces on a couple fan leaves, I have no idea what these are but they are new and have developed quite quickly;




My Skunk Specials seem quite hardy and are in fairly good shape overall, although their fan leaves seem to be folding upwards slightly into V's along their central vein. The Fan leaves also seem dry on them but not to the same extent as the Ice.


My thoughts on possible issues are as follows:

-Do I have enough fresh air going into my cabinet? 440 CFM fan pulling through a can 50 scrubber, through my hood and out, passive 9x5 vent intake. One internal fan blowing across the canopy.

-My soil mix is about 50% Pro mix HP with myrocise, 30% worm castings, 20% perlite, I added 1 1/2 tblspoons of dolomite per gallon, plants are in 1 gallon pots and still about a week from transplant into 2's.

-Hood too close to my canopy? the canopy temps are never over 80 F, too many lumens perhaps? Plants are at 25 days, quite robust, about 6-7 inches tall and about 11-12" wide. Skunks and AVM are not topped and have about 8-9 nodes each, Ice are topped once at around 4-5 nodes, the new tops on the Ice were slow to take off but are coming along now, although some of the new tops and the secondary growth on the Ice are getting the same slight yellow blotchy look as the larger fan leaves.

-Over ferting? I am not sure, am I overdoing it? I try to use 50%, even 25% of what the recommended amounts are.

- PH? Honestly, until this grow, I have never checked it. I have a decent Hanna combo meter, I clean and calibrate it regularily, I always PH my nutrients to 6.3-6.8 as FF recommends. I will be doing a run off test tonight to see what my soil PH is at.

There you have it, if anyone has any input please let me know. I am going to suspend feeding any nutrients for the next little while, I am not sure if giving them all a healthy dose of r/o water will help or not? In the 2-3 years that I have been doing a plant or two at a time in my closet I have never had any health problems save the occasional heat issue or some over watering, which you may see as a good thing BUT I am severly stumped right now as I have never had to deal with anything like this before. Thanks Guys!

 

[Guest]

Ok, I ran a couple gallons of RO through one of the Ice, Ph'd to 6.4, and my runoff has a PH of about 6.1 and a PPM of ~1400!!? Wtf?! I guess I have overfed my plants heavily? I am quite puzzled, I have no fertilizing soil ammendments and have never fed them anything over 250 PPM (total of about 5-6 feeding over 25 days). There have been no signs of overferting at all, no burnt tips, nothing.

I am guessing my best course of action now would be to flush all plants well with clean water? How much is too much to run through them?

 

[Guest]

dont overwater.
feed less in early stage (my 2 cents)

 

[sproutco]

1400 ppm runoff is probably ok. Ph is good in runoff. There is magnesium in fox farm ferts + cal mag + dol. lime in the promix + you added quite a bit more dol. lime at planting = too much cal mag = zinc deficiency

Why are you using a bloom fert high in phosphorus in veg?

Reasons for zinc deficiency:

Obvious solution is the plants need fert with micros containing zinc

Other reasons:

>too wet

>too cold

>too much phosphorus

>too much alkaline earth metals especially magnesium; too much dol. lime or cal mag or both

>too much copper

>too much iron

>ph too high

>rootbound

Instead of feeding your plants by total ppms off the tds meter, you should be feeding by ppm of the individual elements like 150 ppm nitrogen, etc...Get net weight, total ml, % of each element like .6% magnesium, and ml used off the bottles of fert. Using the calculator below in my signature, enter these numbers. It will give you ppm results. Here is an example. I think this is grow big. Click on this to enlarge. When larger, move cursor to bottom right corner of the picture to make it even larger and clear.


Once you get the numbers, post them and we can sort out too much or too little.

 

[Guest]

I have read that with the pro mix, the amount of lime they add is not enough. With the combination of the dolomite, the Foxfarm ferts and what is in the pro mix, should I not use the cal mag supplement at all?

I am using the Big Bloom in veg as foxfarms feed chart and most of the grows I have seen here on IC seem to use it all the way through. Foxfarms feeding schedule suggests to use it even before you start on the Grow Big veg fert.

I am not too cold, too wet or root bound, we can definitly rule those out. I have enough space left in my pots for about a week and then I will have to go to 2 gals. PH seems good, my runoff PH on all plants last night was between 6.4 and 6.7.

I will do my best to get all the info off my nute bottles tonight and try to run them through your calculator, it's Halloween though and I have to take my little guy out trick or treating! It will be a little later tonight until I can get to it.

Thanks for your help so far Sproutco, I will get back to you ASAP. My lights just came on so I am going to get in my cab and see how things are going.

1400 ppm runoff is probably ok. Ph is good in runoff. There is magnesium in fox farm ferts + cal mag + dol. lime in the promix + you added quite a bit more dol. lime at planting = too much cal mag = zinc deficiency

Why are you using a bloom fert high in phosphorus in veg?

Reasons for zinc deficiency:

Obvious solution is the plants need fert with micros containing zinc

Other reasons:

>too wet

>too cold

>too much phosphorus

>too much alkaline earth metals especially magnesium; too much dol. lime or cal mag or both

>too much copper

>too much iron

>ph too high

>rootbound

Instead of feeding your plants by total ppms off the tds meter, you should be feeding by ppm of the individual elements like 150 ppm nitrogen, etc...Get net weight, total ml, % of each element like .6% magnesium, and ml used off the bottles of fert. Using the calculator below in my signature, enter these numbers. It will give you ppm results. Here is an example. I think this is grow big. Click on this to enlarge. When larger, move cursor to bottom right corner of the picture to make it even larger and clear.


Once you get the numbers, post them and we can sort out too much or too little.

 

[sproutco]

PH seems good, my runoff PH on all plants last night was between 6.4 and 6.7.

That would be a high ph for promix. Should be 5.6 to 6.2. Try ph 6 in your fert water. Over 6.5 is going to cause you some problems.

You might try the following veg formula I came up with:

Per gallon of water: (these numbers are approximate)
1/8 teaspoon potassium nitrate = 63 k 24n
1.5 teaspoons grow big 6-4-4 = 30 p 65 k 115 n 10 mg
1/4 teaspoon powdered gypsum 60 ca
1/8 teaspoon epsom salts 15 mg

This would give you about
140 n
30 p
135 k
60 ca
30 mg

2/3 strength for seedlings and you can raise this by 1.5 x for super fast growth in high light

Note: You should not use the epsom and gypsum if you added additional lime to the promix. Only use this with a low rate of lime.

In flower, you should use 100 n, 50+ p, 200 k and cal mag as needed.

You should not add cal mag to your soil. When you added the extra dol. lime, this should be plenty. In flower, you may want to add cal mag once every three ferts (or as needed) when the lime begins to run short. 60 ca and 30 mag.

Potassium nitrate you can get at a hardware store in the form of stump remover. Check the label. Dexol and green light are some brands. I dont think the grow big has enough k.

Powdered gypsum you can get at a garden shop. Epsom salts at the drug store. Neither of these add nitrogen so that would be good maybe to do in flower instead of cal mag. 1/4 teaspoon gypsum adds 60 ppm calcium and 1/4 teaspoon epsom adds 30 mag. Use the calc to see how much the bloom fert has in it and subtact from this. You might only need 1/8 teaspoon epsom if there is 15 already in the bloom fert.

4:2:1 potassium to calcium to magnesium. If you got 200 k then you want 100 ca and 50 mg. Of course this would be with little dol. lime in the soil.

 

[MynameStitch]

thsoe plants for 1400 ppm is seriously overfed, the dark color of the plant is a dead give away, they got to much nitrogen and they have purple petioles which is not normal, some purple is not 100%

there is an imbalance from to much flush your plants out

im sure the heavy nute load has put your ph out of wack as well

 

[sproutco]

thsoe plants for 1400 ppm is seriously overfed

Thats really still in the optimum range to be in so hes not using too much. Here is a chart I found for pour through. I think this is from ohio state or penn state. I cant remember.

Suggested values for pour-through or leachate test.

Rating EC reading micromhos
Low 0-422
Acceptable 423-1136
Optimum 1137-2018
High 2019-2984
Very High 2895 and above

 

[imnotcrazy]

But STITCH, he said they were doing fine until he put them under the HPS, could be more light more nutes???

 

[firsttimegrower]

how close are your lights my plants looked like that when my lights were too close 400watt hps i couldnt get mine closer than 12 inches without damage