Soil Vs. Soilless mediums

[LilMan72003]

A trend I have noticed in this forum is that most of the organic growers around here using amended soilless coco/peat mediums.

Anyone grow in amended topsoil/mineral soil. Or combine soil with soilless mediums?

People who know what they are doing seem to get good results using Pro-Mix, FFOF, Roots Organic, etc as a medium.

My concern with soilless mediums is that without any type of soil texture (no silt, clay, or loam), the medium lacks the ability to hold water, though a mulch would help somewhat. Having to water frequently increases the chances of the plant experiencing drought stress (from a late or missed watering). Plus its more of a hassle.

Another concern I have with soilless mediums is the theoretical depletion of cation-exchange-capacity (CEC) which is another way of measuring nutrient retention capacity, due to the lack of electrostatically charged clay particles and humus, which hold the charged ions. I suppose soil drenching/foliar sprays with humic acids could help, but I am still suspect.

I'm not trying to put down anyone's methods or start any arguments, because obviously people in this forum have done well with soilless mediums. Just raising some questions for you smartees out there.

-Lilman

 

[xmobotx]

refer to capt cheeze's "thinking of using local soil" sticky here in organic soil

 

[h.h.]

Compost my brother, compost and ewc and I'm trying to improve drainage.
Diversity. Lots of activity. Hot microbial bodies rubbing up against the cool fungus, nitrogen being cycled back and forth. Gets my electrons flowing just thinking about it. Throw in some form of cal/mag to mix in with the minerals from the compost and it's zip, zap, zip. Electro boogie.

 

[supermanlives]

i add compost ,some local soil and ewc to my sunshine 4.

 

[LilMan72003]

refer to capt cheeze's "thinking of using local soil" sticky here in organic soil

exactly what I was lookin for. thanks.

 

[SeaMaiden]

A trend I have noticed in this forum is that most of the organic growers around here using amended soilless coco/peat mediums.

Anyone grow in amended topsoil/mineral soil. Or combine soil with soilless mediums?

People who know what they are doing seem to get good results using Pro-Mix, FFOF, Roots Organic, etc as a medium.

I've been under the impression that FFOF and RO are both soils.

My concern with soilless mediums is that without any type of soil texture (no silt, clay, or loam), the medium lacks the ability to hold water, though a mulch would help somewhat. Having to water frequently increases the chances of the plant experiencing drought stress (from a late or missed watering). Plus its more of a hassle.

Another concern I have with soilless mediums is the theoretical depletion of cation-exchange-capacity (CEC) which is another way of measuring nutrient retention capacity, due to the lack of electrostatically charged clay particles and humus, which hold the charged ions. I suppose soil drenching/foliar sprays with humic acids could help, but I am still suspect.

Coco coir has excellent CEC, pretty good porosity and water holding capability. Its issues lie in its propensity to lock onto Ca and Mg, IMO/IME, and the fact that it does lack minerals, which means when I'm growing with coco I must provide that which it lacks. But the CEC issue isn't a concern with coir.

I'm not trying to put down anyone's methods or start any arguments, because obviously people in this forum have done well with soilless mediums. Just raising some questions for you smartees out there.

-Lilman

When I do go back to growing indoors I'll likely be using coir for a few reasons. One, it's much lighter, which makes it physically less demanding for me to use. For another thing, yield is stellar, not to mention that things happen fast--whether a problem or a great growth burst--they happen really fast with coir. Yet another good thing about it is that it's not only renewable, it provides a source of revenue for some of the poorest nations on earth, many, if not most of which tend to be circumtropical in geography.

I haven't grown using Pro-Mix, RO, won't pay for FFOF when I have Gardener & Bloom's good soils, which I've again moved away from in favor of good quality top-soil, but this is 100% for my outdoor growing. Due to an injury earlier this year I have nothing going at all right now indoors and don't plan to for quite some time. I've even lost all my cuts (not planned, MAJOR bummer, but it is what it is) that I've been running for several years.

 

[h.h.]

http://sunlandgarden.com/retail-detail.php?id=3&keywords=Natural_&_Organic_Potting_Soil
http://sunlandgarden.com/retail.php
http://sunlandgarden.com/dealers.php

 

[LilMan72003]

I've been under the impression that FFOF and RO are both soils.

Fox Farm Ingredients: Composted forest humus, sphagnum peat moss, Pacific Northwest sea-going fish, crab meal, shrimp meal, earthworm castings, vermicultural compost (bedding material and livestock manure), sandy loam, perlite, fossilized bat guano, granite dust, Norwegian kelp meal and oyster shell (for pH adjustment).

Roots Organic Ingredients:Coco fiber, peat moss, perlite, pumice, premium worm castings, bat guano, kelp, fish bone meal, soy bean meal, feather meal, greensand, leonardite and alfalfa meal.

I guess FF mix is technically a soil mix because it contains "sandy loam". I would imagine it is a rather small quantity of such.

Roots organic's 2 main ingredients are coco and peat. This is a soilless mix. Most potting mixes are coco/peat based products.

Coco coir has excellent CEC, pretty good porosity and water holding capability. Its issues lie in its propensity to lock onto Ca and Mg, IMO/IME, and the fact that it does lack minerals, which means when I'm growing with coco I must provide that which it lacks. But the CEC issue isn't a concern with coir.

Great info. In your experience, what is the key to preventing the Ca/Mg lockout? Proper ph? Frequent waterings?

When I do go back to growing indoors I'll likely be using coir for a few reasons. One, it's much lighter, which makes it physically less demanding for me to use. For another thing, yield is stellar, not to mention that things happen fast--whether a problem or a great growth burst--they happen really fast with coir. Yet another good thing about it is that it's not only renewable, it provides a source of revenue for some of the poorest nations on earth, many, if not most of which tend to be circumtropical in geography.

Coco is sustainable. Peat moss is the exact opposite. Harvesting of the peat bogs destroys habitat and ecosystem services.

I understand the rapidity of response you are talking about. Similar to hydro. It all happens quick. Growing in soil is a much "slower" experience. From showing response to nutrients/problems, to taking the time to continually amend, cook, etc.

I haven't grown using Pro-Mix, RO, won't pay for FFOF when I have Gardener & Bloom's good soils, which I've again moved away from in favor of good quality top-soil, but this is 100% for my outdoor growing. Due to an injury earlier this year I have nothing going at all right now indoors and don't plan to for quite some time. I've even lost all my cuts (not planned, MAJOR bummer, but it is what it is) that I've been running for several years.

I'm a big advocate of the Gardener & Bloome products. Sorry to hear about the losses of your health and the cuts. These things happen. Hope you have enough bud to tie you over until the next outdoor season.

Thanks for the excellent response.

-Lilman

 

[GDSBurns]

Coco is a great soil less for veg. The rapid growth is great to start in. Once in bloom you could switch to a great soil for a better tasting and smelling product.

I havent grown in soil in a couple of years but am going back soon. This is the route im gonna be taking. Speedy veg in coco then a transfer to a really good soil for bloom. I miss that great taste and aroma of a good organic product. Also in hydro i dont get that fade and awesome colors i use to in soil.

 

[mad librettist]

I use at least 20% soil in all my mixes. without a soil component, a mix is essentially disposable. You cannot keep using it forever, as the fluffy peat/coco eventually breaks down, resulting in very low air porosity. For durability I also replace perlite with calcined DE or calcined clay. That gives me lots of durable components while keeping air porosity up a bit.

The process with real soil is the reverse if you play your cards right. Rather than losing volume, properly maintained soil will grow a bit. Aggregates are formed that help it retain a shape. Walk around in the woods some time, and you can feel with your feet where soil life has made lots of micro-aggregates. You'll know you have hit such a spot because the ground will turn suddenly soft and springy.

re: peat harvesting - this has also come a long way, and in canada there is now relatively sustainable peat harvesting going on.

 

[mad librettist]

Oh, I meant to add - its a good idea to add some clay to any mix, @ 2-5% by volume is a start. Check out the link in my sig on media physical properties. There are other videos there and one is about clay in potting mixes.

Clay = cec and water holding, and not in the same ballpark as coco. Luckily, they are not exclusive and clay works great in any mix.

My ususal top dress also includes a handful of clay.

 

[SeaMaiden]

For years I have habitually put a handful of our native clay (it's posing as dirt/earth, but I won't be fooled, it's CLAY) into each pot. I always told myself, "It's just for good measure." Knowing what I do now, I know that it's more than just 'good measure' and that it actually provides elements, perhaps microbes, and additional CEC to the mix I'm using, whatever it may be.

I only reuse my coir for a few runs, and then I like to put it into my soil beds.

Fox Farm Ingredients: Composted forest humus, sphagnum peat moss, Pacific Northwest sea-going fish, crab meal, shrimp meal, earthworm castings, vermicultural compost (bedding material and livestock manure), sandy loam, perlite, fossilized bat guano, granite dust, Norwegian kelp meal and oyster shell (for pH adjustment).

Roots Organic Ingredients:Coco fiber, peat moss, perlite, pumice, premium worm castings, bat guano, kelp, fish bone meal, soy bean meal, feather meal, greensand, leonardite and alfalfa meal.

I guess FF mix is technically a soil mix because it contains "sandy loam". I would imagine it is a rather small quantity of such.

Roots organic's 2 main ingredients are coco and peat. This is a soilless mix. Most potting mixes are coco/peat based products.

I would agree with you there, if it contains rock dusts or sand, it begins to head into soil territory.

Great info. In your experience, what is the key to preventing the Ca/Mg lockout? Proper ph? Frequent waterings?

Proper charging of the coir is #1, get all those sites that want to latch onto it full of molecules and it's less likely to rob the plant when they're fed. Frequency of waterings doesn't seem to make much difference in that regard, especially when frequency is also a function of pot size (root mass) and age of the plant (again, root mass). What I have found to be most useful is to get RID of the Cal-Mag combinations and separate out Ca and Mg. I find I need to feed more Ca than Mg at the beginning, and if Ca is given in sufficient quantities and a Mg - occurs, then it's too easy to add in a wee bit of MgSO4 via root feed or foliar application.

Proper pH is also of high importance, but that's with regard to proper utilization of all available nutrients. I tend to have more P & K issues than Ca & Mg issues (reddened petioles, if it's let go then leaf tips become necrotic and die back, classic P issue signals). Just as important, though, is allowing or forcing pH to range.

Coco is sustainable. Peat moss is the exact opposite. Harvesting of the peat bogs destroys habitat and ecosystem services.

That's what I thought about peat, but then a few years ago on another site someone posted some stuff put out by the Canadian government that basically states that their peat harvesting is sustainable. However, Canada is a relatively rich nation, unlike, say... Samoa, Indonesia, the Philippines, etc.

I understand the rapidity of response you are talking about. Similar to hydro. It all happens quick. Growing in soil is a much "slower" experience. From showing response to nutrients/problems, to taking the time to continually amend, cook, etc.

Yeah, I'm not entirely clear on the why of it, I do know that I observe it. It was that rapid response that got me intrigued, because electricity is expensive and it makes no sense to me to waste it when I don't have to.

I'm a big advocate of the Gardener & Bloome products. Sorry to hear about the losses of your health and the cuts. These things happen. Hope you have enough bud to tie you over until the next outdoor season.

Thanks for the excellent response.

-Lilman

I definitely have enough bud to last me all the way through next year's season, thank you. But I am still bummed to lose some of those cuts. Maybe not so much to lose The White, she's a pain in the ass all the way around. But Mother of Thor and pre-98 Bubba Kush, I'm definitely bummed to lose those two cuts. Fortunately, I have contacts who I think will be able to help me out when the new season is upon us.