2015 is all about improving my growing knowledge and skills. I grow in soil and needed some advice on soil that has been proven to get good results and soil that is available locally (home depot, lowes, walmart, Kmart , or nursery.) Thanks IC
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Soil recommendations?
- Thread starter there goes edro
- Start date
What you find at big box stores is going to vary largely based on what region you are in...but don't forget about looking at places like Ace Hardware, Tractor Supply and also local feed/grain stores.
Here's a link to get you thinking though:
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=258168
dank.Frank
Here's a link to get you thinking though:
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=258168
dank.Frank
Vos - FFOF is NOT going to be found at big box stores and for that matter neither is perlite except for the garbage dust that Miracle Grow packages and contaminates with chemical N. I know where I live, the closest hydro store is 3 hours away. Makes things like, oh, just get some pro-mix and FFOF and kelp meal...much more of a chore than most people realize.
That is exactly why MANY people choose to look for methods of producing their own soil mixes - which in the end are far superior to anything you could buy in a bag.
That aside, FFOF - IS NOT going to get you to harvest. The plant will be good for a few weeks - but after that, then what? Bottle feed? Might as well keep growing hydro.
dank.Frank
That is exactly why MANY people choose to look for methods of producing their own soil mixes - which in the end are far superior to anything you could buy in a bag.
That aside, FFOF - IS NOT going to get you to harvest. The plant will be good for a few weeks - but after that, then what? Bottle feed? Might as well keep growing hydro.
dank.Frank
There's a nursery and gardening supply store down the road. Just trying to get something good without asking too many questions. Thanks for the info. The more I'm learning the less I know. This year I want to find what works best in my current situation. So many variables!!!
Tho I prefer to buy my soil locally, from the hippy guys down at the riverside,
I have in the past bought some FFOF online, as they were on holidays, I do prefer local soils, but FFOF does well in a pinch, just google.
There is no way.. will my soil making efforts, make it to the standard on a national soil supply chain ,
norr will I risk my expensive seeds to my soil making efforts, at least for now.
If in doubt buy in what the young noobies buy in,(FFOF)
but I agree ..see it as a temporary thing, until you find a local supplier.
http://www.amazon.com/Fox-Farm-12QT...479896&sr=8-13&keywords=fox+farm+ocean+forest
http://www.amazon.com/Espoma-PR8-8-...479896&sr=8-14&keywords=fox+farm+ocean+forest
I have in the past bought some FFOF online, as they were on holidays, I do prefer local soils, but FFOF does well in a pinch, just google.
There is no way.. will my soil making efforts, make it to the standard on a national soil supply chain ,
norr will I risk my expensive seeds to my soil making efforts, at least for now.
If in doubt buy in what the young noobies buy in,(FFOF)
but I agree ..see it as a temporary thing, until you find a local supplier.
http://www.amazon.com/Fox-Farm-12QT...479896&sr=8-13&keywords=fox+farm+ocean+forest
http://www.amazon.com/Espoma-PR8-8-...479896&sr=8-14&keywords=fox+farm+ocean+forest
I know what FFOF is - I've used it many times as a part of a mix:
Phillthy's base mix:
1/2 - bale Pro Mix Bx
1 - bag FFOF (or equivalent)
1/2 - 30# bag EWC
5 gal additional chunky perlite
It is ABSOLUTELY possible for ANYONE to make a soil that is just as good and even better than FFOF...
But ordering soil pretty much specific to growing cannabis off the internet to your front door - BWWWWAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHA. Not this grower. And I'm certainly not going to spend $35 (after shipping) on a product that isn't going take the plant all the way to harvest.
There are many threads dedicated to such things in the Organic Soil sub-forum, so if you are a beginner, there is zero reason to jump in blindly...as there are people who have taken all the guess work out of the equation and shared that information...just as in the link I posted in my first post, which also contains the link to BurnOnes' "Organics For Beginners" thread - which is even more simplistic/basic than my own recipes...
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All of that aside - suggesting the Edro goes and buys FFOF off the internet - completely ignores the premise of his question. He asked for local, big box store products...
Of which I choose not to suggest specific products, due to regional differences, what products one suggests can be very telling of your location.
dank.Frank
Phillthy's base mix:
1/2 - bale Pro Mix Bx
1 - bag FFOF (or equivalent)
1/2 - 30# bag EWC
5 gal additional chunky perlite
It is ABSOLUTELY possible for ANYONE to make a soil that is just as good and even better than FFOF...
But ordering soil pretty much specific to growing cannabis off the internet to your front door - BWWWWAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHA. Not this grower. And I'm certainly not going to spend $35 (after shipping) on a product that isn't going take the plant all the way to harvest.
There are many threads dedicated to such things in the Organic Soil sub-forum, so if you are a beginner, there is zero reason to jump in blindly...as there are people who have taken all the guess work out of the equation and shared that information...just as in the link I posted in my first post, which also contains the link to BurnOnes' "Organics For Beginners" thread - which is even more simplistic/basic than my own recipes...
-----------
All of that aside - suggesting the Edro goes and buys FFOF off the internet - completely ignores the premise of his question. He asked for local, big box store products...
Of which I choose not to suggest specific products, due to regional differences, what products one suggests can be very telling of your location.
dank.Frank
So just to be clear, you are looking for pre-bagged soil that will sustain you throughout both cycles of growing? That is also sold at big retailers like Lowes, Wal-Mart or Home Depot?
I don't know of any that past the quality test from the retailers you mentioned. There are some soil mixes popping up that seem to be effective, but they are not available at those stores. Not yet, at least.
Home Depot/Lowes/ACE does, however, sell Premier peat moss which is very high quality and can be an excellent base for your soil should you choose to mix up your own, which I strongly recommend. That way you know what is in your mix to a T, know the quality of the amendments used and it's cheaper to produce. The math has been broken down in numerous threads so don't take my word for it. Check the Organic forum and you'll see what I mean.
Can you source any sort of compost locally? Preferably non-dairy compost which is usually very high in K. Worst case scenario, the Wiggle Worm EWC from most hydro stores will suffice. It's not ideal and compared to high quality EWC it is lacking but it's not as bad as people think just because it is sold at hydro stores. Microbe activity is surprisingly high and the nutritional content is fair to good. I wouldn't be surprised if you did a little digging that there is a local supplier of EWC. Local, of course, can mean an hour away relative to buying it from on-line or some company in another state. I found a high quality EWC source about 45 minutes from me and it's well worth the trip.
You're two thirds of the way through to making a very good base mix to amend, if you can find some compost and pick up some Premier at your local big box store. So now you could use some rocks, rice hulls or perlite. If you can find some loamy compost at a local supplier you might even be able to skip this step, it depends. If the compost and peat mixed together can clump fairly easily and break up with little pressure you could likely get away without using a proper aeration amendment. I've done it before to great success, I think often times the aeration amendment can actually be counterproductive.
Anyhow, it is fairly easy to source; lava rock/pumice/pea stone can be found at local nurseries, landscape suppliers or garden centers. Perlite is kinda shit but it's often the easiest thing for people to find because the local hydro store will sell the chunky stuff. Rice hulls can be found at the local brewery supply store. Any craft brewers nearby? Then you can likely find rice hulls.
Now mix that up... some do 50/25/25, some do 60/20/20 and some do 33/33/33. Take your pick. I'm preferential to the first two but that's mainly because I've never bothered with the latter. They all can do the job, though.
For amendments... your local nursery likely sells crab shell meal. Might be a little costly but it works well. Any feed stores nearby? Oyster shell and kelp meal is a phone call away, if so. There almost assuredly a local supplier of rock dust as well. Google your area and basalt rock dust. You might be surprised.
A base mix of peat/rock/EWC amended with crab shell, kelp meal, oyster shell powder and basalt rock dust is a solid start. This spring plant some comfrey or nettles on your property, if you can, and you'll be on your way to self-sufficiency by growing your own fertilizer. If you can't do that, might be worth taking a trip to a nearby forest or wooded area to see what mother nature provides as alternatives in your area. Even dandelions can be used as fertilizer. Get creative and you won't be limited to hydro or big box stores.
If you're looking for something readymade that has all that, locally at a retailer... good luck. If you find it, let me know. I've seen some stuff pop up locally but it's no different than what I described. It's just already bagged and mixed for you which can be convenient but not necessarily good. It varies wildly. So take your pick and let us know how it goes.
Whatever you do... don't buy FFOF. I can't believe that even came up as a suggestion in 2015.
Certainly would be naive of me to assume I could just go to a store and find a bag of something that has it all. Needed input on something that comes close and some advice of how much of what I can add. Not against of supplementing with bottle nutes. Got some FF grow big and Bonicare Pure Blend grow and flower. Thanks for all the great input! Quality of final product is good but my yield just sucks so lm just rethinking my whole appoarch. Realizing that I'm not getting the best out of my plants by just buying potting soil mixing some perlite and adding nutes. You guys have provided plenty of info but as I clearly have no problem stating that lm no expert. Simple with proven results is what my goal is. Any more advice you more experienced growers can share with me is greatly appreciated IC!
What exactly is your medium right now? What do you mix into your potting soil and perlite as far as nutrients? Do you let your soil sit mixed for a period of time prior to planting?
Also what size containers are you typically using? That PBP might come in handy as a supplement of sorts if you are flowering in containers <5 gallons, depending on what amendments you're using and how you're preparing the mix.
Yield is dependent on many factors. Genetics, environment, grower skill and importantly, if you're growing in soil, allowing for a decomposition cycle to occur prior to planting. Otherwise you have, for example, raw alfalfa or guano that is largely insoluble and needs to decompose to become plant available nutrition.
The lack of a decomposition cycle, and microbes for that matter, is the reason why 99% of organic soil growers experience low yields. They mix up some soil and then plant immediately into it while most of the fertilizer is still in raw form.
This is why microbe extrapolations (compost teas, for example) are crucial, especially with a new mix because the benefits of adding a diversity of microbes in great numbers will directly affect the decomposition rate and nutrient cycling capabilities of your soil.
Here is a simple and proven soil mix.
Peat (60%)
EWC (20%)
Aeration amendment (20%)
1-2 cups per cu ft (approx. 7.5 gallons of the base mix)
Kelp meal
Crab shell meal
Basalt rock dust
Oyster shell powder
Mix this up, moisten it with a compost tea (ideally) and let it sit for 2-3 weeks, at least. Turn the pile every few days and maintain a consistent level of moisture, it should be moist enough that you can readily clump some in your hand and break it apart with little to no pressure. Clump some up and then toss it up slightly like you might a baseball and just let it fall back onto your hand, it should break apart very easily upon contact.
That's it. You will grow high quality cannabis using this mix. If your environment is rock solid and you have some high yielding genetics you'll get the results you are looking for. Reuse the soil and it will get better.
Also what size containers are you typically using? That PBP might come in handy as a supplement of sorts if you are flowering in containers <5 gallons, depending on what amendments you're using and how you're preparing the mix.
Yield is dependent on many factors. Genetics, environment, grower skill and importantly, if you're growing in soil, allowing for a decomposition cycle to occur prior to planting. Otherwise you have, for example, raw alfalfa or guano that is largely insoluble and needs to decompose to become plant available nutrition.
The lack of a decomposition cycle, and microbes for that matter, is the reason why 99% of organic soil growers experience low yields. They mix up some soil and then plant immediately into it while most of the fertilizer is still in raw form.
This is why microbe extrapolations (compost teas, for example) are crucial, especially with a new mix because the benefits of adding a diversity of microbes in great numbers will directly affect the decomposition rate and nutrient cycling capabilities of your soil.
Here is a simple and proven soil mix.
Peat (60%)
EWC (20%)
Aeration amendment (20%)
1-2 cups per cu ft (approx. 7.5 gallons of the base mix)
Kelp meal
Crab shell meal
Basalt rock dust
Oyster shell powder
Mix this up, moisten it with a compost tea (ideally) and let it sit for 2-3 weeks, at least. Turn the pile every few days and maintain a consistent level of moisture, it should be moist enough that you can readily clump some in your hand and break it apart with little to no pressure. Clump some up and then toss it up slightly like you might a baseball and just let it fall back onto your hand, it should break apart very easily upon contact.
That's it. You will grow high quality cannabis using this mix. If your environment is rock solid and you have some high yielding genetics you'll get the results you are looking for. Reuse the soil and it will get better.
^^TRUTH^^
If you have ever grown vegetables or flowers in a garden,,
it's easy to learn how to improve your own soil to be suited more specifically for marijuana....
Plus, it beats the heck out of spending "big bucks" for something someone else made, when you can learn how to do a better job of it yourself, for a lot less money...
After reading what you are currently doing - I am 1000% certain that following the advice of the peeps on IC will get you to a much happier place in your garden!!! You are at the right place!
Now I'm excited for you - wait until you get it figured out and you finally see the potential locked away in your plants! You'll be nothing short of amazed.
dank.Frank
Now I'm excited for you - wait until you get it figured out and you finally see the potential locked away in your plants! You'll be nothing short of amazed.
dank.Frank
List of goodies I am in the process of acquiring for my next grow
Alfalfa Meal
Dry Molasses
Kelp Meal
Blood Meal
Azomite
Powdered Dolomite Lime
Gypsum
Oyster Shell Flour
Promix or Sunshine#4
Earthworm Casings
Chunky Perlite
Bag of premium organic potting soil
Liquid Karma
Mycorrhizal Fungi
Still doing lots of reading and studying. If there's anything obvious I have forgotten please don't hesitate to chime in.
Alfalfa Meal
Dry Molasses
Kelp Meal
Blood Meal
Azomite
Powdered Dolomite Lime
Gypsum
Oyster Shell Flour
Promix or Sunshine#4
Earthworm Casings
Chunky Perlite
Bag of premium organic potting soil
Liquid Karma
Mycorrhizal Fungi
Still doing lots of reading and studying. If there's anything obvious I have forgotten please don't hesitate to chime in.
For your EWC look for Worm Power, AgroWinn, or Vital Earth...in that particular order. Pretty much the best quality I've personally used available via commercial suppliers.
Don't forget the Sul-Po-Mag ie K-Mag ie Lagbeinite. It's a great addition and is one of those things I consider to be essential. One of the more notable benefits is the "pH down" effect that sulfur has on a soil. It gives a soil the tools it needs to self balance - outside of the nutritional benefits it provides...
You are lacking a primary source for phosphorous in that list. Look into a high P guano, bone meal, fish bone meal, soft rock, etc...
For the dry molasses - I prefer Stockade Brand Kandy Kid - the molasses used is derived from cane sugar where lower quality products use molasses derived from beet sugar.
IF you plan to recycle this soil mix and use repeatedly - you may want to look into a aeration amendment that doesn't crush or break into smaller pieces or float to the top of the medium when watering like perlite does. Look into Permatill or lava rocks...such products have a much longer life span.
dank.Frank
Don't forget the Sul-Po-Mag ie K-Mag ie Lagbeinite. It's a great addition and is one of those things I consider to be essential. One of the more notable benefits is the "pH down" effect that sulfur has on a soil. It gives a soil the tools it needs to self balance - outside of the nutritional benefits it provides...
You are lacking a primary source for phosphorous in that list. Look into a high P guano, bone meal, fish bone meal, soft rock, etc...
For the dry molasses - I prefer Stockade Brand Kandy Kid - the molasses used is derived from cane sugar where lower quality products use molasses derived from beet sugar.
IF you plan to recycle this soil mix and use repeatedly - you may want to look into a aeration amendment that doesn't crush or break into smaller pieces or float to the top of the medium when watering like perlite does. Look into Permatill or lava rocks...such products have a much longer life span.
dank.Frank
I just buy vegy compost. The sort for growing your own food is safe to grow your own smoke with. I get it from our version of your Walmart. Yes it can be made complex, yes you can spend silly time and money growing your own stash. For me things need to satisfy 2 conditions though. Is it cheaper doing this than buying it, and is that still true if I factor time in. The second the answer is no, you've gone too far with it.
Most people seem to miss one important thing when looking at soil, if it doesn't have enough to last in it, rather than adding stuff to your soil, you can add more soil to your root zone.
Most people seem to miss one important thing when looking at soil, if it doesn't have enough to last in it, rather than adding stuff to your soil, you can add more soil to your root zone.
Thanks DF! Forgot the Bone Meal.
I've got some dolomite lime but it's in pellets and not powdered. Can I still use this or powdered only?
Well, in reality...take few pellets and drop them in water and see what happens...
Then take a cup of your base soil and toss in a tbsp of the pellets...pour some water through it and see what happens...
You'll notice they actually crumble fairly quickly...although, not immediately. You'll find they act like little clay balls that slowly "melt" when in the medium. They are by design intended to be a slower "release" product.
The BIGGEST difference...is even distribution through out the medium.
I've used both before - and while the pelletized does work - I don't think it works as well. I've also used combos of pellet and powdered...pellet and oyster, etc...
Since it seems you are planning on using the 1/3 dolo, 1/3 gypsum, 2/3 oyster shell - I think you'll get buy just fine...albeit not particularly what one would call "ideal".
However - part of the reason I like the above is because dolomite acts very quickly to bring pH into balance at least more so than oyster shell. I look at it as a fast/immediate and a steady/long term combo. IN some ways, having that dolo in pellets acts against this premise.
But again, I think you'll be okay in the grand scheme of things...
dank.Frank
Then take a cup of your base soil and toss in a tbsp of the pellets...pour some water through it and see what happens...
You'll notice they actually crumble fairly quickly...although, not immediately. You'll find they act like little clay balls that slowly "melt" when in the medium. They are by design intended to be a slower "release" product.
The BIGGEST difference...is even distribution through out the medium.
I've used both before - and while the pelletized does work - I don't think it works as well. I've also used combos of pellet and powdered...pellet and oyster, etc...
Since it seems you are planning on using the 1/3 dolo, 1/3 gypsum, 2/3 oyster shell - I think you'll get buy just fine...albeit not particularly what one would call "ideal".
However - part of the reason I like the above is because dolomite acts very quickly to bring pH into balance at least more so than oyster shell. I look at it as a fast/immediate and a steady/long term combo. IN some ways, having that dolo in pellets acts against this premise.
But again, I think you'll be okay in the grand scheme of things...
dank.Frank
Can I reuse soil that was feted with Chem nutes. Got some old soil that I cleaned the old root matter out. I need to make a decision within the next couple of days. Plants were flushed for two weeks before chop so I was wondering could I amend the soil with some organic goodies and reuse or just dump it and start fresh. Any advice appreciated.
