Selfing: Advantages

[Tonygreen]

I would like to start this discussion by presenting this paper that concludes in part by saying that in a selfing scheme "Recessive alleles are more efficiently purged in self-fertilizing than in outcrossing populations and contribute less to polymorphism."

Genetics. 2007 Oct; 177(2): 905–916.
doi: 10.1534/genetics.107.073601

Mating Systems and the Efficacy of Selection at the Molecular Level
Sylvain Glémin

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2034653/

Yet another reason to ditch the Y?

 

[shishkaboy]

I wanna self a few of my keepers and I could not think of a better person to try and learn from.

 

[Tonygreen]

There is way better dude but any knowledge gained is a plus in my book.
Too bad Tom isn't here ha! I got some more things to share though.

I thought it was interesting read about purging deleterious recessives.
Something I never see anyone mention in the talks...

 

[IntelliGeneS]

There are reasons why domesticated plant species tend to be pushed toward self-fertilization, and one of the biggest is indeed that recessive alleles can be much easier to fix and somewhat easier to eliminate.

Interesting to see these two effects modeled mathematically. Definitely self-fertilization can result in greater genetic gain than sibling mating.

 

[KindSiever]

Sub'd


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNkQVoE1rC8

 

[mojave green]

Lurking

 

[Mate Dave]

If you 'self' or 'Reverse' be sure to test them plants under all known and available conditions to ensure they're female or..

I'm not aware of any plant species that requires large numbers to make a difference to a chemotype/
sporophyte ..

But I'm aware of a method that specifically recuces line fitness..

 

[VerdantGreen]

Allard talks about selfing quite a bit in his book.

as i understand it, if you take a clone and self it, then those selfed offspring (S1s) that exhibit a trait that you desire will be some 50% more likely to breed true for that trait than the original clone itself (this presumes the trait is caused by one allele pair)

obviously selfing has some potential disadvantages, and isnt necessarily the answer to everything, but it is an option that you should at least consider.

VG

 

[Mate Dave]

Only one advantage and that's female ofspring if the tech works, in every regard it diminishes health... If your looking for the homozygote to breed in S1 then your stock is inferiour.. If you sell S1 that's your propagative.. To use the Allard method but not have tested it in a outcross first using a top cross is just plain Stupid..

Recessive.. I like Heterozygote F1's... Proper uniform seed is it.. I want a pedigree heterozygote.. Not S1

To purge recessive genetics you first need to hybridize and F2 to see if they need purging..


See those seperate lines are probaly worth inbreeding using a proper breeding plan to harness the genetic potential so then you can make Certified seed from pre basic.


Do you not wan't polymorphism?

Bwahahahahah!!!

 

[rykus]

I agree the proper way is with testing the S1 using a conventional cross to prove out that the selfing did create a dominant or co dominant trait for what ever the breeder was focusing on.

that's the thing about these science papers being used as selfing promotion... yes selfing can be a tool to create or isolate dominance in desired traits, this can at the same time isolate other undesirable traits and make them dominant or co dominant as well...

that is the problem with people just making S1's and selling them un tested, they may lock down no good traits...

but t is as mis leading to say selfing diminishes anything because it does not do anything for sure... just working in a smaller gene pool will lock down traits faster, be them good bad or inbetween...

depression can occur in already inbred lines...


all IMO anyways..

 

[VerdantGreen]

dave im pretty sure Allard also says that selfing is the best way to purge recessives too.

if i was looking to make a seed line from an elite clone, or aquire it in seed form, the first thing i would look for is S1s... not always going to be the answer but to me that is where to start. the great thing about making your own seeds is that you get to choose how you do it.
im just a hobby breeder, or you might call me a pollen-chucker if it better suits your agenda to us a pejorative term

the point i was making above is that some people will dismiss S1s outright and never want anything to do with them, and i think those people are turning their backs on a valuable breeding tool and a very valid way to try and get clones in seed form. but again everyone gets to choose

VG

 

[Tonygreen]

Point me to all the homozygous seed lines for sale to make supreme f1s? The choices are rather limited. I guess everyone's parent stock is inferior? Testing progeny is equally important in standard male female schemes as it is in selfing schemes. Sadly it is not happening on a large scale. Loss of vigor can be observed in any inbreeding scheme. An outcross or cross to a parallel line handles that issue in selfing schemes and standard male female matings

 

[Mate Dave]

I'd just use it to get 10,000 seeds from a superior mother in a batch of F1's, alongside a dioecious mating inside and out the line. You can tell things from it. If the superiour plant was difficult to pair to a male for example from within line to go back to herself, I belive it's easy to find one from withing her female side to pair to achive a desired result. You step over all the nice ones with the stud Then you have a look..

It's abused and folks don't always have good intentions.. I wasn't suggesting you were abuseing it, I find it's PITA to do. I'm not keen. It's chemical seed production and I'd prefer to try the other route's to sell seeds to growers. Untill I have stable genetics. Then once you have some 'monohybrid' line you can could sell fem's or look for mothers in Fem's.... I've had bad experience from seeds until I found clones older than the mothers of the seeds I was growing..

I'd use the male to make the growth in the females uniform symetrical and less wild.

 

[oceangrownkush]

All I can speak on is my limited experience, growing GG4 and GG4 s1 seeds. Selfing doesn't result in an increased number of intersex plants, in my experience. Didn't find one over 20 s1 seeds. There were Chocolatey as fuck plants tastier than Glue, then there were Dieselish plants and Dubb type plants but neither would have good Dubby terps, the chocolatey plants were the best overall. I think a few selections of GG4 selfing could produce a grail seedline easily, if every plant had that stocky growth and chocolatey terps.. Tons of vigor.

 

[Bongstar420]

The intersex trait people are concerned about with these modern cuts is a stress response. They are confusing bannas induced by stress as a straight herm. Actual herm plants drop both sex organs every run. The stress trait has multiple modifier genes interacting with it as both intensity and variation of conditions. There are some plants that are devoid of the stress herm trait and that is what the common grower wants..this is because poor growers will typically see herms at least periodically due to their lack of skill. One thing that I have noticed is that herms due to root aphid are much more common than the other stressor factors. I have an 'ACDC' cut that does not herm under any conditions. So far, the trait appears to be recessive

All I can speak on is my limited experience, growing GG4 and GG4 s1 seeds. Selfing doesn't result in an increased number of intersex plants, in my experience. Didn't find one over 20 s1 seeds. There were Chocolatey as fuck plants tastier than Glue, then there were Dieselish plants and Dubb type plants but neither would have good Dubby terps, the chocolatey plants were the best overall. I think a few selections of GG4 selfing could produce a grail seedline easily, if every plant had that stocky growth and chocolatey terps.. Tons of vigor.