Self Pollination vs Cubing Process???? why cube?

[darwinsbulldog]

hey all, just wondering why a breeder would use the cubing process to produce an IBL vs Selfing??

if the idea at the end of the Cubing process is to produce progeny with 99.99% your chosen mum's genes, then why would anyone bother with going through 6-7 generations to get to the 99.99% when you can just self the plant and get 100% of mum's genes in the progeny? isn't the result at the end of the day almost if not exactly the same thing though Cubing will take a number of years and selfing is a one life cycle process? anyway just wondering... please educate me if i'm wrong. cheers

darwin

 

[big ballin 88]

Its all about stability and consistency...

 

[darwinsbulldog]

yeah, i'm guessing the main differences are the selection you can do while cubing, ie selecting the traits you like best in the males you use. doing this 6-7 times would reduce variation a great deal in resulting progeny, but could / do breeders do cubing and self females they produce in the progeny to do the BC's with? this would result in 100% genes in all progeny and still be able to use the BC process to stabilize?

also, is there a way of doing this selfing/cubing process where one can select for 100% female girls, ie. if you put all the progeny you grow up, the F1 for example, through CS/STS treatment and then only use girls that don't produce male flowers, ie. 100% females, to cross with each other and then cube in order to produce an IBL that is 100% female sex genes with no chance of "hermies" in progeny?? let me know if i'm getting confusing lol i know what i mean whether or not i've worded it clearly here

darwin

 

[Honkytonk]

hey all, just wondering why a breeder would use the cubing process to produce an IBL vs Selfing??

if the idea at the end of the Cubing process is to produce progeny with 99.99% your chosen mum's genes, then why would anyone bother with going through 6-7 generations to get to the 99.99% when you can just self the plant and get 100% of mum's genes in the progeny? isn't the result at the end of the day almost if not exactly the same thing though Cubing will take a number of years and selfing is a one life cycle process? anyway just wondering... please educate me if i'm wrong. cheers

darwin

There's no way cubing will produce plants with 99.99% of the 'mum's genes'. The idea that cubing 'adds' a certain percentage of 'mum's genes' each cubing round is only relevant for dominant/recessive monogenic traits. The idea is mainly spread by people who barely understand the punnett square and don't understand inheritance patterns at all.

Why would one bother? Because one doesn't understand genetics! It does produce regular seeds which selfing doesn't, though.

 

[slackx]

Science vs nature friend. Heterozygous vs homozygous beans

 

[darwinsbulldog]

yeah i see where you're coming from when you actually think of it that way. it's definitely not as simple as adding the reverse half life to 50% of mum's genes each cubing round. but if the person is using the technique to get progeny much like the mother as possible, why not just self the plant? or cross pollinate progeny from the same parent etc? when both of these techniques can result in as healthy seeds as with M/F matings when done properly

 

[love?]

Well maybe if you wanna get better yields or whatever, bring in some pollen from a plant like that and then try to work it to be like the clone but with better yields. But then again why get stuck with the "cubing process" instead of working into f2 f3 f4 etc in addition to backcrosses? Or I dunno how to do it best, whatever, my point is that following a "plan" like cubing might just be limiting yourself for no good reason.

So why cube? If you need a simple plan to follow I guess... But it doesn't really "guarantee" the result it's meant to do, so why follow the plan? Well, "for fun" is always a good reason and this time it's the only one I can come up with.

 

[englishrick]

Darwin bro,,,i cant believe your using the word "Hermi",,,,,,,,,,,im sure we have talked about cannabis being sub-dioecious,,, what newbis call "Hermi`s" are in fact monotonous plants in sub- dioecious populations,,,,,none of the biotypes are hemaphrodite

selfing and feminization is by far the best way to ensure presevation of novel and supirior genotypes,,,imo

 

[Mr. Greengenes]

Both cubing and selfing are a way of reducing variation. Selfing makes much more uniform seedlings, basically clones in seed form. The success of cubing depends on how the plant being cubed was itself bred. Some plants will never throw a plant with all, or even most traits like it, no matter what you cross into them. But, all this depends on what your goal is. If your goal is to produce seeds that have as little variation as possible, selfing is the best way. If your goal is to find plants that exceed that best plant, you don't really want to reduce variation so much as you want to increase sameness within the theme, so to speak.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

I have always felt that the selfing is where you can see a loss of hybrid vigor. I have always felt lack of material brings this on...maybe I'm off base with that..?
Now, if you you have another fem that resembles your target mum, you could force pollinate the mum, then select for three more successive feminizings, you would have numbers in the 90% range and possibly not lost any hybrid vigor.

 

[englishrick]

Selfing is the most rapid method for succsessing genotypes,,,,the loss of heterosis is not sutch a big issue if you can bring it back with final breeding

 

[xmobotx]

i m certain that selfing would only produce strictly homozygous offspring if the self'd plant were homozygous

at the zygote level you are talking about hereditary traits w/ a heterozygous plant carrying genes for more than 1 trait and not necessarily visual or manifest traits

*oh i misread, heterosis meaning diversity basically and not heterozygous

 

[Tom Hill]

A lot of folks will backcross 3 times successively (cube) only to realize that the recurrent parent is highly heterozygous. That's a waste of time/resources imo, they could have found that out with a single round of selfing. If the plant/line selfs well (produces a high percentage of plants like the parent/s), then it will act accordingly as a recurrent parent in a backcrossing scheme as well.

There are many ways to get around the inbreeding depression (deficit of heterozygous plants) that more intensive breeding strategies will likely bring with them. Outcrossing has been mentioned - another is to retain enough parental genotypes for further breeding work thereby reducing the probability of random fixation. In other words, begin with a shitload, end up with many - not just one. -T

 

[englishrick]

some genotypes are dificult to capture,,,,polygeneric traits and hetero issues are ticky,,,

 

[darwinsbulldog]

Darwin bro,,,i cant believe your using the word "Hermi",,,,,,,,,,,im sure we have talked about cannabis being sub-dioecious,,, what newbis call "Hermi`s" are in fact monotonous plants in sub- dioecious populations,,,,,none of the biotypes are hemaphrodite

selfing and feminization is by far the best way to ensure presevation of novel and supirior genotypes,,,imo

that's why i put it in " "s haha i just cbf'ed explaining that if people didn't understand for now.

 

[xmobotx]

this sub-dioecious idea intrigues me as many strains tend to throw nanners late in flower if not seeded

 

[darwinsbulldog]

yeah see at the end of the day, i'm just curious about the best methods for conserving the traits of one or more parents you really like and doing it in the quickest and best breeding manner. i'm also really interested in a method in which one can create 100% female plants and remove all chance of nanners and intersex plants.

i'm thinking the quickest way to do so would be to choose parents who show reduced tendencies to produce male flowers, and then self or cross pollinate them, produce progeny and select again those with the most reduced tendency to produce male flowers and either cross or back cross etc until eventually you end up with an individual or even a population of pure bred female plants. is there a better way of doing this???

darwin

 

[englishrick]

fair enough,,,,,,i didnt see the " ",,,,...............i know this "hermikid" thing can be a ball ache at the best of times,,,,its gona get on everyones nerves


i personly dont like the idea of breeding towards sterile females,,,but thats just me

 

[darwinsbulldog]

nah i'm not after sterile females, that would suggest they weren't able to reproduce. i'm just after producing at some point, some females who won't produce nanners/male flowers... who are always going to produce perfect sinsemilla bud for growers even if they stress it accidently etc. so many people complain about "hermies" (lol " ") i'd love to be able to deliver a product in the future that was void of that possibility, though that's not to say i'd remove it from all lines i'd want to work, as it definitely has it's place with being able to self/cross pollinate etc.

 

[darwinsbulldog]

this sub-dioecious idea intrigues me as many strains tend to throw nanners late in flower if not seeded

do we know of any strains, or lines, etc that are well known for tendencies to NOT throw nanners? are there any strains out there from whatever breeders that are pure female? or is this a pretty coveted thing and thus isn't readily shared among simple growers and the like?