selecting males for early maturation

[sunset limited]

first off, apologies if this is posted in the wrong forum.

i'm a novice pollen chucker. here's my question. is a male that throws pollen quickly indicative of a tendency to pass the trait of quick maturation on to its female offspring?

here's why i ask. i wasn't even selecting for quicker finish time. i was looking to make the adub a little less leggy and was also digging for some decent haze pollen to dust my og's and see what we got. in the process, i stumbled across an sssdh male that might be something special. boys showing sex in a week isn't uncommon. boys that show sex and pop half their pollen sacs in 5 days is pretty damn unusual though, is it not?

if early pollen production ISN'T a good risk to produce girls that finish quicker, then what is?

 

[sunset limited]

bump.
maybe the redeye set will have an answer.

 

[therevverend]

Growing outdoors I've had a few strains that showed male preflowers and threw pollen extremely early. Their sisters were done in midAugust when everything else was late Sept. These males were on the verge of being auto flower plants, not quite. Their offspring were also quite early. However the potency was hit and miss so I'd be wary about putting all your eggs in that basket. If youre able to be selective I would experiment further with this trait. You might be able to nail down an early variety you can cross with a later flowering more potent plant.

 

[sunset limited]

thx. even as a rookie breeder, i know better than to hedge all my bets on one cross. looks like it's definitely worth a shot though.

no auto tendencies to any of these seed starts either. due to a tech issue, i had to leave these vegging for almost 4 months, just pruning them back.

visions of 7 week valley and cookies dancing in my mind.
<fingers crossed>

 

[hush]

I've never once chucked any pollen, so I am far from being an expert, but I have been reading about it lately, and one thing I've learned is that you never want to breed with the first plants of either sex that show their gender. Not sure why breeders say this, but several of the big names have made this claim.

FWIW.

 

[sunset limited]

wonder why that is.
hmmm...

 

[hush]

I don't know but I hope someone else does.

 

[Tonygreen]

I read several people referencing early bloomers used to reduce flower time, the sweet tooth expressions in Blue satellite for example which are known to flower early.

 

[Elmer Bud]

G`day Sunset limited

While there is a good possibility of snagging earlier plants .
Till those helices combine all we have is speculation and dreams .
Could be the early plant is sub dominant and make no change to your flower times . Might be very dominant and shorten flower time right up . Gotta suck it and see bro .

EB .

 

[hush]

I found a few of the articles I was referencing... I've highlighted the pertinent parts in bold.

Subcool:

Breeding Better Cannabis Part 1
Creating Better Cannabis
Many people collect things as a hobby, we are no different except we collect “Elite strains of Cannabis” usually in clone-only format. In the last 25 years I have collected and grown-out hundreds of strains. I have traveled to Holland and attended the Cannabis Cup, 7 times. I’ve also lived in Amsterdam. One thing I believe is that the best Cannabis in the world is still in North America, in some unknown garden and belongs to someone without internet access. We have been lucky enough to collect some amazing examples. Some of my all time favorites are Genius and Apollo-13 by Brothers Grimm, also Killer Queen and Space Queen by Vic High. Our most potent strain is Jack’s Cleaner, a Pluton X LambsBread X Purple Haze freak, which can literally make a non-grower puke if they’re not used to her brutal raw potency. We call it the “they’re coming to take me away” stone. Now, MzJill and I continue this tradition working as a team. She has some of her own favorites as well. The Black Russian strain that gives all of our Sputnik crosses their insane purple coloring came from MzJill via Nebu. Over the past 5 years we have worked with these crosses to create new and interesting varieties. MzJill comes up with her own crosses using her favorites and even helps me pollinate when the males are ready. We grow in 100% organic soil mix I prepare myself using potting soil, bat guano, worm castings, and other natural soil builders. We feel the biosynthesis that takes place in soil adds something that cannot be measured. We use 10 gallon containers so the roots have lots of room. We would like to share with you a little of what goes into breeding a new strain.
Breeding has many complexities that I won’t begin to try and explain here today. But I think our main goal was very simple, to combine an extremely potent “Sativa hybrid” with a “heavy yielding, ultra purple strain”. The results would be a purple strain with the potency added from that parent. What gets tricky is many strains like G-13 are extremely dominant and can take over a cross. When you cross BlueBerry and G-13, usually you just make a nasty tasting, watered down version of both. This doesn’t mean that there are not good Blueberry G-13 crosses; its just breeding is not as easy as 2+2=4. There is also a big difference between “breeders” and “seed makers”. Anyone can take a male and pollinate a female. This is not breeding; it is making copies with large variations. Again if they’re sold cheap, a winner can still be found if enough seeds are grown out. The difference is the selection process of the parent strains.
The Momma’s and The Poppa’s
Selection of the mother plant (or P1) was easy, Apollo-13 is in the top 3 of my favorite strains and I think it may be the most unique strain we have. Blending potency and a bizarre putrid-rotting-fruit smell, that make it a one of a kind. Selection of a male Black Russian was not as easy. The first mistake people make in selecting a male is by choosing the most vigorous. Remember those complexities I mentioned earlier? Well, the recessive drug traits we seek are stashed away in non-vigorous males. Think about the plant in the wild, the natural progression of Cannabis is back to Hemp. The drugs strains we have today are a direct result of human intervention. Robert Clark says it better “In the wild, the early males always win the breeding contest. Without proper selection, these early males cause "acclimatization" of the variety, and a decrease in drug quality. This is the "dominant" state of Cannabis. If it were otherwise, why would we need breeders? All you would have to do is let the plants do their own thing and they would become more potent over time, but they don't. The only way drug varieties ever get better is through human intervention in the natural order.”
So, in order to find these recessive traits we choose males based loosely on the following. At time of germination are there any capitate trichomes on the cotyledon leaves? The number and frequency of non-glandular trichomes; this can be a great indicator of future glandular production. The earliest males to show sex get tossed, no ifs ands or buts. Dominant males are useless for drug (misuse of this rule has caused more hermaphrodite strains than the world deserves) Cannabis. If these basics are followed during each male selection process, then this gives us a much better chance of finding the genes we want. This is not meant to be a guide for anyone, just a basic explanation of what a “Cannabis Breeder” looks for when selecting strains to work with and/or improve upon.
Sometimes taste is the desired goal or maybe potency. I have taken cherry flavored Ortega and crossed it with Killer Queen to create a cherry phenotype called Danny Boy. Danny Boy is done in 48 days and the taste is like cherry candy. The famed Jack’s Cleaner was crossed with a BlueBerry to create Batgirl and then JCB males from that cross have created entire seed companies. Our JCB male has blue pollen sacs and drips with resin.
Also in the works is an Orange Velvet X Space Queen that will be our first Pineapple-Orange offering. This is MzJill’s creation so we have named it JillyBean. Orange Velvet is a PNW strain obtained from “some Hippies” as the story goes. Our goal is to create bad ass strains that we want to grow out and smoke ourselves. Once breeding pairs are selected then they are sent to BadBoy to replicate successful crosses or create insane new things BadBoy’s Astro Boy (Apollo-13 X Ortega C99).

DJ Short:

Selecting males
I prefer to remove all of the males from the grow-room to a separate, isolated space shortly after they declare their sex and well before they begin to shed pollen. A small space lit with simple fluorescent light will suffice for the males for the next few weeks. During this time the female buds will fatten with more flowers while your collection of males is selected down.
I generally employ a simple process of elimination while selecting males. First, any auto-flowering or very early-declared males are eliminated. (Auto-flowering means that male flowers form regardless of light cycle timing.) This is mainly to insure against hermaphroditism or unwanted flowering traits, but also as a means to insure quality. The very early declared males have a tendency to be less desirable in terms of their contributions to the quality of the finished product. (If you are trying to specifically create an early-flowering strain, then your priorities may be different.)
Next, any male plant that grows too tall or too fast is usually eliminated. The reason for this is that most plants which dedicate so much energy to fiber production generally are best for making fiber. The exception to this rule is when an over-productive plant also exhibits a number of the desirable characteristics mentioned later.
The next criteria for elimination is borrowed from Michael Starks' book, Marijuana Potency, and involves stem structure. Large, hollow main stems are sought while pith-filled stems are eliminated. Backed by years of observation, I agree that hollow stems do seem to facilitate THC production.
Another consideration is the type of floral clusters that develop. Even on males, clusters which are tight, compact and yet very productive are desired over an airy, loose structure. These observations are most notable in the indoor environment. Outdoors, the differences in stem and floral structures are more difficult to discern.
The next and perhaps most important characteristic to examine is that of odor, flavor and trichome development. Again, the females will prove themselves by their finished product, but the males are a bit trickier.
I usually begin with a Sativa female and an Indica male. It has been my observation that the females primarily contribute the type of flavor and aroma and the males contribute the amount of flavor and odor. The "Sativa/Indica" aspects of this formula are mainly apparent in the P1 or very early filial crosses (to about f3). Beyond the f3 generation the apparent "Sativa/Indica" ratio in a given individual is less important than the odor/flavor and trichome development aspects it exhibits. Therefore, one of the main aspects to consider when selecting a male is the depth of its aroma and flavor. (If you are seeking to develop a low-odor indoor strain you might wish to begin with a low-odor Sativa male and an Indica female.)
With the remaining males I usually employ an odor/flavor test. Using males at least two or three weeks into the flowering cycle (and preferably beyond if a separate, isolated space is being used), a sort of "scratch-and-sniff" technique is first employed. With clean, odor-free fingers, gently rub one plant at a time, on the stem where it is well developed and pliable, above the woody part and below the developing top (approximately at the spot where a clone would be cut). The newer leaves at their halfway point of development may also be rubbed and sniffed.
These are the places that the earliest chemical signatures of a developing plant present themselves, and it is our intent to gently disturb these chemicals and inspire an odor/flavor reaction on the fingers and on the plant. By examining these various aromas in this way one may be able to determine certain desirable (and also undesirable) characteristics. After clearing one's palate and refreshing one's fingers, another plant may be tested.
The finalists are best compared for at least a week and at different times of day, to determine who performs best over a period of time.
A few of the "good" aromas which I have found to be associated with both male and female high quality cannabis are: sweet, floral, fruity, berry, wine/brandy, other savory spirits, skunky and spearmint. Some of the "bad" aromas associated with both male and female cannabis are: grassy, chlorophyll (green), celery, parsley, carrots, cinnamon, pepper-mint or wintergreen, gear-oil and gasoline. Some of the aromas that are considered "good" from females but not necessarily from males are: woody, cedar, pine, citrus, tropical fruit, chocolate, vanilla, coffee, garlic and astringent.

I'll try to find others. I just came across a few references to other people saying that such and such breeder does this or that, but I want to find actual articles by the actual breeder. Those are the only two I could find at the moment. From what I understand, the earliest ones to show sex tend to be better suited to fiber production, and the later ones (which can still finish fast, don't forget!) to show their sex tend to be the ones with the better cannabinoids, and the better recessive traits. Apparently, it has a LOT to do with recessive traits, and that the males' desirable features are recessive, so their value lies in their progeny rather than in themselves.

I'm still learning though.

 

[Rumblefish]

and one thing I've learned is that you never want to breed with the first plants of either sex that show their gender. Not sure why breeders say this, but several of the big names have made this claim.

FWIW.

I recall reading this in an article that Shantibaba wrote on the selection of males ,I think he said that from his experience that the first male to present itself was never the one, I have had a look for it in the MNS forum here but I'm unable to locate it.Maybe I saw it at Shanti's forums.there was this old thread on the subject though
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=17890&highlight=good+male I'm sure plenty off peep here will have good advise on the subject
Also i just searched " selecting males" in the Breeders Laboratory and there's a gold mine of info re male selection including this one
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=238363&highlight=selecting+males
Use the search feature it easy

 

[Tonygreen]

I found a few of the articles I was referencing... I've highlighted the pertinent parts in bold.

Subcool:



DJ Short:

Selecting males
I prefer to remove all of the males from the grow-room to a separate, isolated space shortly after they declare their sex and well before they begin to shed pollen. A small space lit with simple fluorescent light will suffice for the males for the next few weeks. During this time the female buds will fatten with more flowers while your collection of males is selected down.
I generally employ a simple process of elimination while selecting males. First, any auto-flowering or very early-declared males are eliminated. (Auto-flowering means that male flowers form regardless of light cycle timing.) This is mainly to insure against hermaphroditism or unwanted flowering traits, but also as a means to insure quality. The very early declared males have a tendency to be less desirable in terms of their contributions to the quality of the finished product. (If you are trying to specifically create an early-flowering strain, then your priorities may be different.)
Next, any male plant that grows too tall or too fast is usually eliminated. The reason for this is that most plants which dedicate so much energy to fiber production generally are best for making fiber. The exception to this rule is when an over-productive plant also exhibits a number of the desirable characteristics mentioned later.
The next criteria for elimination is borrowed from Michael Starks' book, Marijuana Potency, and involves stem structure. Large, hollow main stems are sought while pith-filled stems are eliminated. Backed by years of observation, I agree that hollow stems do seem to facilitate THC production.
Another consideration is the type of floral clusters that develop. Even on males, clusters which are tight, compact and yet very productive are desired over an airy, loose structure. These observations are most notable in the indoor environment. Outdoors, the differences in stem and floral structures are more difficult to discern.
The next and perhaps most important characteristic to examine is that of odor, flavor and trichome development. Again, the females will prove themselves by their finished product, but the males are a bit trickier.
I usually begin with a Sativa female and an Indica male. It has been my observation that the females primarily contribute the type of flavor and aroma and the males contribute the amount of flavor and odor. The "Sativa/Indica" aspects of this formula are mainly apparent in the P1 or very early filial crosses (to about f3). Beyond the f3 generation the apparent "Sativa/Indica" ratio in a given individual is less important than the odor/flavor and trichome development aspects it exhibits. Therefore, one of the main aspects to consider when selecting a male is the depth of its aroma and flavor. (If you are seeking to develop a low-odor indoor strain you might wish to begin with a low-odor Sativa male and an Indica female.)
With the remaining males I usually employ an odor/flavor test. Using males at least two or three weeks into the flowering cycle (and preferably beyond if a separate, isolated space is being used), a sort of "scratch-and-sniff" technique is first employed. With clean, odor-free fingers, gently rub one plant at a time, on the stem where it is well developed and pliable, above the woody part and below the developing top (approximately at the spot where a clone would be cut). The newer leaves at their halfway point of development may also be rubbed and sniffed.
These are the places that the earliest chemical signatures of a developing plant present themselves, and it is our intent to gently disturb these chemicals and inspire an odor/flavor reaction on the fingers and on the plant. By examining these various aromas in this way one may be able to determine certain desirable (and also undesirable) characteristics. After clearing one's palate and refreshing one's fingers, another plant may be tested.
The finalists are best compared for at least a week and at different times of day, to determine who performs best over a period of time.
A few of the "good" aromas which I have found to be associated with both male and female high quality cannabis are: sweet, floral, fruity, berry, wine/brandy, other savory spirits, skunky and spearmint. Some of the "bad" aromas associated with both male and female cannabis are: grassy, chlorophyll (green), celery, parsley, carrots, cinnamon, pepper-mint or wintergreen, gear-oil and gasoline. Some of the aromas that are considered "good" from females but not necessarily from males are: woody, cedar, pine, citrus, tropical fruit, chocolate, vanilla, coffee, garlic and astringent.

I was looking for that article!

 

[Granger2]

Hush, also Rumblefish.
Thanks for the research and info. -granger