Seed "parthenogenesis" - Why? How to prevent it?

[mriko]

Greetings and Love everyone!

Alright, I'm kinda pissed here... I have a beautifull ACE's Haze x Kali China in full bloom right now an having a closer look at the maturing buds I just found out that some of the branches are packed with developping seeds, without any pollen source around (and no male flowers on the plant, no hermaphroditism).

It's not the first time it happens, last year (curiously around the same time of year I think, gotta check this) I had a Shirin Gol filled with seed aborts and some years ago, 3 Uzbek did the same on me (again, around sam time of the year if memory serves me...).


I just don't understand what the freaking f*ck is going on. Interestingly (worryingly?) I have a younger Killer A5 Haze with just 4 seeds (so far?) developping in the lower branches which makes me wonder if it has to do something with phyto-hormones and maybe plant communication ?
But what kind of information could they exchange that lead to plants producing seeds on their own?

And what about the first one? Is it something in the air ? Could it have to do with plants natural cycle in nature ? Something released in the air around early springtime?

Ugh,but last year, the Shirin Gol was growing with about a dozen plants around (3 other SHirin Gol), but only one turned seedfreak...

Has anyone witnessed this phenomenon?

That is one darn mystery to me, can't find any explanation so any insight will be greatly appreciated.

Irie!

 

[q3corn]

Ugh,but last year, the Shirin Gol was growing with about a dozen plants around (3 other SHirin Gol), but only one turned seedfreak...

That's interesting... Following

 

[aridbud]

From questions posed to Ed Rosenthal "Ask Ed" Cannabis Culture:

Question: I have some plants growing indoors in a controlled environment with filtered air. For no apparent reason my plants are going entirely to seed. There are no known males anywhere. The plants were started as cuttings from a known variety. The seed is abundant in every part of the plant and they all are infertile. This has happened several times with several different varieties. The plants are extremely healthy and vigorous and have not been stressed. There are no insects in the room and the plants have been grown in pots using coco fiber. I have over twenty years experience and have never come across anything like this before. Do you have any suggestions that may help?

R&&&&&&&&, Sydney, Australia

Ed Rosenthal: Parthenogenesis, the development of embryos without pollination, does not occur in cannabis. The seeds are the result of the flowers being fertilized. There are two ways this could occur: the first is that the plants produce male flowers. You say this is unlikely since you inspected the plants carefully; and another indication that this didn’t occur is that seed production occurred in several different crops using different varieties.

If pollen does not originate in the garden, then it must originate outside and be carried to the garden in the airstream. Somewhere within 150 meters of your garden someone may be growing male cannabis plants and this pollen is affecting your garden.

Frankly, of the two scenarios, I’d guess that the first, rather than the second, is most likely, since it is highly unlikely that someone is growing a male garden. The male flowers in your garden have been eluding you, but they are there.

The reason the seeds are infertile is that the buds were picked before the seeds matured.

 

[I wood]

I have had this with several varieties over the years in a sealed room with filtered intake.
Ed is wrong in my opinion. One particular variety did it off and on over a twenty year period, always in a room full of unaffected plants. No one ever complained and i noticed no extra harshness when smoking buds.
The only way i notice it at all is when making water hash or extracting with ethanol, hundreds of tiny beige seeds floating.
The stray pollen theory doesn’t work when it is only one plant in a room of ten to twenty unaffected plants.
I have accepted that i may never know why.

 

[Mr. J]

Jesus seeds. Truly a miracle.

 

[mriko]

Thanks for posting this aridbud.


Well, at least I'm not alone and not that crazy after all!

Well, I for one wouldn't think a second to doubt or disparage Ed Rosenthal knowledge and experience about cannabis, but with humility and much respect to the man I can say, affirm, certify, garantee without the slightest hesitation that he is wrong on this one, or at least that under certain conditions it is possible for cannabis to produce seeds without any visibl or detectable pollen production.

Ed Rosenthal: Parthenogenesis, the development of embryos without pollination, does not occur in cannabis. The seeds are the result of the flowers being fertilized. There are two ways this could occur: the first is that the plants produce male flowers. You say this is unlikely since you inspected the plants carefully; and another indication that this didn’t occur is that seed production occurred in several different crops using different varieties.

There is no visible or detectable pollen production and no release of a single speck since plants around are unaffected.

If pollen does not originate in the garden, then it must originate outside and be carried to the garden in the airstream. Somewhere within 150 meters of your garden someone may be growing male cannabis plants and this pollen is affecting your garden.

Plants are grown indoor, inside a growtent and there is no cannabis pollen in the air in March/April.

Frankly, of the two scenarios, I’d guess that the first, rather than the second, is most likely, since it is highly unlikely that someone is growing a male garden. The male flowers in your garden have been eluding you, but they are there

No, regular pollen coming from a couple of male flowers don't do that.

The reason the seeds are infertile is that the buds were picked before the seeds matured.

No, the seeds are infertile because they are aborts, tiny empty shells. One per flower, each and every individual calyx containing an abort for the very most part. The Freak Shirin Gol has produced mature, viable-looking seeds, but very few, like 00,1% if not less.



Been thinking about possible changes in growing condition recently, most notable was an abrupt change in night temps, going from 15-16°C to 20-22°C. This year, and last year too...

I've got the feeling that it's a reaction to some stimulus, the plant doesn't start as but turns seedfreak at some point. Could that imply a mutation?

Oooooooh... wait a second, something came up, I happen to live in a old, crumbly & MOLDY house, f*cking Stachybotrys eating up the walls and what not. This darn crap happens to be mutagenic and teratogenic and it is a mycotoxin that can actually affect the reproduction of crop plant!!
How exactly I don't know, will have to dig that up, but it doesn't seem far fetched to me!

Irie!

 

[mriko]

I have had this with several varieties over the years in a sealed room with filtered intake.

Aaawww, here goes my mycotoxin theory...

Wail wail wail!

Irie!

 

[Stinkhorn123]

I’m not sure if what I experienced is similar but this past outdoor I season I had a single plant in a patch of 12 that had several branches that were quite heavily pollinated. Id never noticed any male parts or even a single flower but assumed there must have been some. These seeds were large, dark, and fully formed but were hollow and had no embryos. I’d never experienced or heard of this happening before so I private messaged the breeder to see if he maybe knew what was up. His reply was an insect had eaten the embryos or the seeds hadn’t fully matured. Could this possibly be parthenogenesis?

 

[aridbud]

Aaawww, here goes my mycotoxin theory...

Wail wail wail!

Irie!

Take Ed however you want to.....I never had trouble with what you described.

 

[hellfire]

I find that people that swear 100% they don't have hermies 100% of the time missed a banana or two...or 5.

 

[mriko]

m not sure if what I experienced is similar but this past outdoor I season I had a single plant in a patch of 12 that had several branches that were quite heavily pollinated. Id never noticed any male parts or even a single flower but assumed there must have been some. These seeds were large, dark, and fully formed but were hollow and had no embryos. I’d never experienced or heard of this happening before so I private messaged the breeder to see if he maybe knew what was up. His reply was an insect had eaten the embryos or the seeds hadn’t fully matured. Could this possibly be parthenogenesis?

Hard to tell, with outdoor grow op there is always the possibility of unwanted pollinization from a patch somewhere (pollen can travel thousands of kilometers), but your case doesn't seem to imply an outer source and this "shell-only" thing is quite odd indeed. I have no idea to explain that.

Take Ed however you want to.....I never had trouble with what you described

Obviously very few people seem to have experienced this phenomenon, your post is the first time I read about someone else's experience. In 20+ years of growing I have seen this only thrice (if the latest case is one indeed).

I find that people that swear 100% they don't have hermies 100% of the time missed a banana or two...or 5.

This has nothing to do with hermaphroditism as we know it and no, bananas play no part in that (usually those are without consequence, never ever had a single seed produced from babanas).

Irie!

 

[hellfire]

This has nothing to do with hermaphroditism as we know it and no, bananas play no part in that (usually those are without consequence, never ever had a single seed produced from babanas).

Irie!

You need a male gamete to produce seeds in cannabis. If you don't have any males it came from a hermie or female pushing male flowers delivering the pollen. You need pollen to make seeds - shells would not form without it. Parthenogenesis is rare in plants already and to our best knowledge doesn't occur in cannabis.

 

[shaggyballs]

So what is apogamy?

Apogamy is commonly regarded as being rare.

Simplified, it is when a seed is formed on a female flower without the presence of pollen.

Due to the lack of males the plant engages in Apogamy.

This results in an entire copy of the DNA and cromosome structures that then gets implanted into the ovual.

I can hear you all grumbling already...LOL

But shag the pollen came in on your clothes or your dog or just through the air.

Well, yes that could really happen and that usually is the case when you find a stray seed.

But if you have searched well and are very sure you have/had no hermaphrodite presence it may have been caused by Apogamy.



How to tell:

When Apogamy happens the only way to verify that it did happen is to have the mother as well as the offspring*genetically tested, you will need a full DNA profile.

If the offspring looks identical to the parent there is a good chance it was caused by Apogamy, but if the plants look even a little bit different it is probably a safe bet saying it was a pollination issue.

 

[AgentPothead]

The problem with Ed's statement is you can't prove a negative. It's impossible to prove that NEVER happens in marijuana without testing literally every plant. What he means is, in his experience. And I trust that and appreciate it, but at the same time tons of plants are known to reproduce asexually, even if sexual reproduction is par for the course. Now that it's legal in a lot of places, maybe we can get some actual, controlled science to answer some of the questions we have.

 

[Douglas.Curtis]

Greetings and Love everyone!

Alright, I'm kinda pissed here... I have a beautifull ACE's Haze x Kali China in full bloom right now an having a closer look at the maturing buds I just found out that some of the branches are packed with developping seeds, without any pollen source around (and no male flowers on the plant, no hermaphroditism).

Can you easily 'feel' cannabis pollen on your fingers/skin? I can.

Have you ever felt pollen all over your hands after touching a plant you see absolutely zero male flowers on? I have.

Unless you've scoped those flowers and find zero micro male flowers (and I mean Suuuuper tiny), your assessment of it not being hermie is probably inaccurate.

 

[mriko]

Haaaaaaaaa! Thank you shaggyballs!

Can you easily 'feel' cannabis pollen on your fingers/skin? I can.

Yup, veeery smooth feeling to the touch,kinda reminds me of some real super fine silk.

Unless you've scoped those flowers and find zero micro male flowers (and I mean Suuuuper tiny), your assessment of it not being hermie is probably inaccurate

This is why I wrote "as we know it" in a later post. It might be a form of hermaphroditism indeed, maybe deep down inside the calyx is a super tiny male flower, that I don't know. But one think I'm certain of is that there is not the sightest release of any quantity of pollen, at all. Otherwise the other plants nearby would be affected while they are not.

One odd thing, although mostly aborts, sometimes a few mature-looking seeds are produced, and on those the pistils remain stuck while they usually fall of after playing their part.
So it seems that there is actually NO POLLEN involved in the phenomenon indeed.

Irie!

 

[chilliwilli]

I noticed after switch to organic soil mix some buds got a lot of tiny black dots after grinding. Always thought thats unfertilised seed precursor.
Whats your opinion?

 

[mriko]

usually aborts are more of a pale creamy grey colour in my experience, with one darker spot though.

Irie!

 

[Deleted user 97766655]

This is the process of apomixis, very interesting.

 

[Hammerhead]

This is an old thread but if those seeds did not ripen I would say there hard ovules. I have seen some genetics that has hard ovules that look like seeds but they never develop into seeds. This is what they look like. These are not seeds.