seasoned grower bashfully admits tech noobocity (electrical and ballast info needed)

[iqcommando]

Hi Everyone,
allow me to introduce myself. I am IQ, and i've been growing for AWHILE. while i have grown both outside and in, and would consider myself to be more knowledgeable in cultivation know-how than most, i have historically only dealt with small crops. for example, when growing indoors i have never run more than 1200 watts (2X 600) at once.

My situation: i am now set on expanding my grow to 4 600s. along with this decision comes a number of questions which will expose the gaping hole in my knowledge base- i am hoping that some of the more kind hearted tech heads will take the time to drop in and lend some answers. i have done research, but most of the forums i find assume much more knowledge on the behalf of the reader than i have, and i can't glean much for the jargon. my questions are as follows:

1)-how many watts/lights can one generally run before making electrical modifications becomes a necessity? i've seen some plenty of medium-large size grows on the boards with home-made electrical panels, flip-flop switches, etc., and have read through some pretty mind boggling electrical mcgyvering, and understand why it is necessary- i just don't understand what wattages demand that kind of attention. at 2400 watts, would i have to worry about this yet? if not, when? im sure to answer this question i would need to find out some info on how my house is wired... but i don't even know where to look or who to ask.
2)- come to think of it, what the hell IS a flip flop switch anyway?
3)- when i expand, i will be purchasing 4 new ballasts and light assemblies. i have been researching for quite some time now, and have decided i would like to go with lumatek 600s, as the company claims it's ballasts can easily run both metal halide and HPS bulbs. however, i have stumbled across a couple forums in which people report that this is only partially true, that some bulbs do not work well with the lumatek, most specifically metal halides. this is a major selling point for me, so i would like to have a more solid idea of the situation before i make my purchase.

thanks in advance to anyone who can answer my beginner questions and get this thing off the ground. all help will be returned in kind, with future correspondence and support, although on the more biological side of the hobby (contrary to the impression these questions might give, i have over 10+ years experience with plant physiology and cultivation experiments, specifically in the area of artificial environment cultivation system design.)

thanks all

-IQ

 

[MostHigh]

Lumatek overdrives the lamp. That leads to immediate bulb failure for many bulbs, the ones that don't fail on the spot have a drastically reduced operating life.
Rare are digital ballasts that out live their warranty. See, being as they are not UL listed, they do not bother attending to a standard.
As well...unless a fan is kept aimed at them, the claims of higher efficiency are total bunk. Heat kills electrical efficiency...and with each passing hour of an individual photoperiod, a digital ballast's performance drops off substantially. ie...during the first hour, a 600 watt ballast draws 600+ watts while delivering 575 watts to the lamp, by hour 12, the ballast is still drawing 600+ watts, but only delivering 475 to the lamp.
Personally, other than that they are not as heavy, and operate with less buzzing, I've yet to realize any advantage to digis over core and coil. FTR, I have three core and coil ballasts, & two digitals.
FYI...several brands of 600 watt digital ballasts are fan cooled. Shy away from those for sake the fan is little more than a moving part set to slow bake its way to eventual failure. Gel filled models dissipate heat better, and without any moving parts, are much quieter than fan cooled models. Though, the gel does add a couple pounds of bulk.
Either still requires a fan be directed at them to assure maximum efficiency and long operating life.

 

[hedpi]

Hey IQ, check out this post http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=77609 for the wattage question #1.

#2 flip flops, we use them to double our equipment.. hehe let me explain better with an example, let's say you have 2 ballasts, but 4 lights, you have 2 separate grows, one that works from midnight to 12, and another from 12 to midnight, so what happens is that the ballasts connect to the flip flops, which gives the power to the first grow, and when it turns "off" gives the power to the other grow. It's like an on-off switch, but you use it just to switch from crop A to crop B.
********************************************
**********|------------| <-------> lamp#1 (grow A)****
ballast#1->*| The Flipper | <-------> lamp#2 (grow A)****
ballast#2->*|------------|*************************
************î î*****************************
************| |*****************************
************| |*****************************
*********Lamps #2 and #3**********************
*************(grow B)*************************

#3 is pretty much answered by mosthigh!

good luck

 

[iqcommando]

thank you gentlemen for your concise replies.

Most High- your arguments sound perfectly logical. thanks for providing me with specific pros and cons, these issues will allow me to ask the right questions/use the right search parameters in the future. allow me to respond-

overdriving the light is indeed something worth taking issue with. as for the heat killing efficiency, it sounds like this would not be a problem for me, as my ballasts have always been racked in a cool, extremely well ventilated space.

and another thing i forgot to mention- another reason the digitals appealed to me is because i have heard that non-digital ballasts can sometimes draw much more power than they are rated for, i.e. a 600 could be sucking 750 watts of juice or more. multiplied by 4, this could send my power consumption way above what i'm comfortable dealing with. is there any truth to this? if so what causes it?

so in the end, after a little research, these ballasts might still prove to be a good choice for me, as a shortened bulb life could be worth it if the ballast was quiet enough (i'm big on stealth) and also kept to it's 600 w limit of power draw. however, i m very interested to know what ballast you suggest i buy. i have a couple months to research, and i intend on following all leads to find my perfect rig. keep in mind that my primary concern is power efficiency an consistency, and that i have means of dealing with heat. stealth (no buzzing) would be a secondary bonus.

Hedpi- thank you very much for your simple answer. i had thought that's what a flip flop was, but wasn't sure. question- would a flip-flop help to eliminate the signature power spike associated with light ballasts as seen by electrical companies? i have read a few articles reporting that detecting power draw patterns and power-up spikes is a number one way for cops to bust us these days, so this would be a plus, yes?

-IQ

 

[hedpi]

Well i don't know about that, but probably not, unless you're using some special relays on the flipflop, because lamps have a relatively fast transitional period, it's like a car engine going from 0-100 in like half a second.. and either you modulate the power entry on the bulb, or it's going to be 0-600w pretty fast..but im pretty sure a vacuum cleaner also produces the same spikes, or a space heater.. i don't know specificaly what they look for, but there are people more informed on that field in the forum than me, altough i have to say that it's easier to look for "scheduled" 18/6 12/12 huge power increases, specially in small houses it can be suspicious, unless you have AC or something lol. anyway hope someone helps you more with being stealth regarding the cops, i don't worry too much as i just use "a couple" of CFLs

 

[MostHigh]

iq...one noteworthy bit about digis is the goof proof switch from MH to HPS. So, for a thing like flipping, that's peace of mind handiness.
I have a Galaxy 400 & a Lumenace 600. I like both. Galaxy has no RF issues, and run super super quiet. They're gel filled. The Lumenace has been good to me, I'm putting it on Craigslist sometime soon though since I've switched to PSMH & CMH. (if you've not yet laid down any loot, and yummy wholesome quality means more to ya than perceived quantity...look into ceramic metal halides... http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=72215
There's heaps of electronic ballasts available. When you scratch beneath the names that have managed decent marketing in N. America, suddenly digi ballasts aren't such a speciality item after all. Lumatek is liked, I think because of the color of things! Seriously, with page after page of bad experiences (that Lumatek always blames on the bulb) that's a crap shoot I'd hope rolled my way.
Look for longer warranties...most offer 2, I look for a 3 year minimum, some offer 5. I've no idea if a longer warranty suggests confidence in the hardware, so long as it's offered, and by a company that's already been around a good while, its good knowing a replacement ballast is just a ride to the shop or a phone call away.
I rencently stumbled into a lamp fixture quite beyond my expectations of quality when I ordered from Venture lighting. A whomping top shelf assembly and parts, 400 watt PSMH fixture, came to my door, with lamp, for $125...$125 and the thing has enough hardware on it to house a seperate ballast kit. I stripped much of it away for sake of remoting the ballast away from the lamp. The lamp is crazy over my head quality too. I've used and or checked out many many lamps, the contruction of their 950 series lamp is akin to a ship in a bottle. Big shroud too. Which greatly aids in keeping the canopy in a cooler, happier place. (there's a much greater volume of nitrogen in between the arc and the glass) I'm telling you this so you hopefully shop around...and not in grow shop corners either. I'm not pushing Venture here...but ffs, delivered to the door, an industrial commercial grade fixture, AND lamp, for $125. http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=76089&page=3
So yea...shop around.

 

[iqcommando]

The Lumenace has been good to me, I'm putting it on Craigslist sometime soon though since I've switched to PSMH & CMH. (if you've not yet laid down any loot, and yummy wholesome quality means more to ya than perceived quantity...look into ceramic metal halides...

Most High- are you saying that you're trading in your lumenace because it won't run the cyramic metal halide bulbs? if so, is that an electronic ballast issue or specifically a lumenace ballast issue? and the part about wholesale quality vs. perceived quantity, can you elaborate on this? are you suggesting that growing under the ceramic metal halide will yield less, but give better quality? or are you speaking about bulb shopping?
it's funny you brought up the CMH, my research was just starting to head in that direction. i'll look into it further.

also, what is your opinion on my electricity question? i'd like to know how many watts you think is safe to run (in terms of heat from LEO)

 

[MostHigh]

My departure from the 600 is mainly due to switching to 400 watt CMH & PSMH, that and, perhaps my eyes were a bit bigger than the grow space is. 600 watt HPS presents me more heat than I care to deal with. It requires the space be exhausted and cooled, where the 400 watt CMH and PSMH only require being exhausted. There is an electronic ballast available to the PSMH, CMH though, is very particular about being spraked by 60 Hz, digital ballasts operate in the ballpark of 20k Hz. that makes the arc go ~p-o-o-f~
Quality...I'm a personal grower, I'm far more concerned about yielding top notch best it can be dankity-dank-dank nug-nug out of the grow than I am about yielding weight. Grams per watt has little influence in my knook of growdum.
Here's the deal, I'd rather have 8 zips of hyper-resinated buds than 10 zips of that same strain grown under HPS that I'd have to take more hits on to equal the dose of what was grown under CMH. I'm after more resin glands per cm2. Not more flowers requiring more energy to produce less glands.

I can't much begin to guess what sort of alarms set off LEO in your area...a 3000 watt grow though, seems a thing likely to remain under radar. Don't take my word for it though eh.