Salt/cristaline wall secretions... how to paint/handle this?

[bigbadbiddy]

Howdy folks,

discovered that old paint in basement room peels off walls.

Further inspection shows dry, white, fuzzy looking substance coming out of the wall and pressing the paint out.

Stuff has no noticeable smell, if anything I would say "minerally"?
Like calcium or whatever the hell...
It crumbles to the touch.
Seems to be salt secretions from the wall/earth.
The walls are a little wet at spots (feel damp to the touch in certain spots, but no water drip or anything).
The "white fuzz" also comes out in other, dry spots in the basement, sporadically, fuckin up the paint, causin no other harm, not really getting larger (I was told).


Now...
Completely drying up the walls of the basement might be possible but costly in time and money.
And...
It might not be possible. I was told that basements used to be built these ways to conserve stored goods, food, etc. (it's an old house).
Might have been a butcher's or bakery at some point. A creek was nearby but since dried out. Was told basements are like this everywhere here.
Humidity is slightly high but not "wet". About 72% relative humidity in winter, if I remember correctly (did measure, it was "normal" for a basement).
The air is clear and nothing moldy going on.
"White Fuzz" no mold smell or anything either.

I can confirm I have seen hella old furniture as well as foods (rice, canned stuff, drinks, fruits, etc.) and other stuff stored there by previous tennant.

Nothing seemed moldy. Some of the stuff seemed a bit old but who knows how long the lady kept them taters and onions down there
The furniture looked good n she said it was down there 30 years, same on some metal stuff, tools, etc. electrical sockets all looked good and solid, actually remarkably well preserved.

Overall I feel there is no "dampness" or issue at all with the place but...

I want to put my main flowering room into one of the corners affected the worst by damp walls and "white fuzz".
Let's not get into the why and wha?

So I was told this special "mortar" or "caulk" or what you call it wherever you are, should work.
It is used in bathroom installations and such as well as in similar situations to mine.
It basically allows the wall to "breathe" and transport the moisture out. So it doesn't get stuck in the wall and grows no mold/whatever.

Issue with that stuff is afaik you can't paint over it because that would seal the area, prohibiting it from breathing --> same issue as before.
The mortar/caulk is white but surely no par+ whatever reflection xD

Was hoping to get away with using that special mortar/caulk and hanging panda film on top..

Will that leave me with mold/pest colonies behind the panda film?
Or should I be good? It really just seems like salt secretion and has been constantly like that for at least the 50 years the previous lady was there. Most of the basement is only slightly affected. If it would spread it should have fucked it all up years ago. They haven't renoved in 30 or 40 years either.

Can I just paint over it regularly and live with the paint falling off?
That doesn't seem right ..

Really no way to paint the wall but keep it "breathable" along with the special mortar/caulk?
I figure if so, i could first see how much "white fuzz" i encounter after application and how the "special paint" deals with it.
If it isn't that much, I just vacuum it off when I encounter and should be good?

Can just ignore?

God I hope this doesn't ruin my plans xD

Could have all been so easy...
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=197980

 

[The Revolution]

I think what you're describing is efflorescence. It's exactly what you said; salt. The water carrying salt pushes through the pourius surface of the mortar and block, vaporized away it leaves the salt residue behind. It harmless to you and your plants. Nothing to worry about.

 

[Muleskinner]

IMO 72% humidity is a problem for the basement. basements become moldy at around 55-60 and up. 72% humidity and some nice fat buds will lead to mold inside the buds as well. I would get a de-humidifier and set it at 50-60% before you start.

 

[Easy7]

Paint with kilz

 

[bigbadbiddy]

Have a dehumidifier at the ready if necessary.

Thanks guys!

Calms me down

 

[I wood]

Paint with kilz

Kilz II has a mildew preventing additive in it and works well on cement.
If you don't remove or treat the efflorescence somehow it will build up behind paint/kilz and cause big blisters to start forming in a few years.
I have always scraped and painted without treating, redoing the blisters periodically.
To fix the efflorescence permanently the exterior needs to be sealed stopping water from wicking through the wall.

 

[MJPassion]

^^^what they said^^^

The exterior of the foundation needs treated in order to stop the flow of water to the inside of the basement.

 

[queequeg152]

its normal for most slabs... foundation walls less so, but its still common.

like someone above me said, its just carbonate and perhaps some other precipitating out of the concrete.

its more common with slabs mixed poorly or slabs that are slicked down before they are ready to be finished.
when you slick or trowel down a slab thats still got that visible water sheen on its surface... you just bring more water to the surface and create this layer of very fine aggregate on the surface thats prone to flaking and efflorescence.

you are not really supposed to paint the foundation walls unless they are already water proofed from the outside, or unless you have exceptionally dry soil on these walls.

you are just trapping the moisture inside the foundation wall with nowhere for it to go.

like mjpassion said, ideally the foundation is waterproofed from the outside, but its not always cost effective... most builders dont offer these systems because of the cost of proper fill material and arguably they are not that much better than an interior solution.

you can also waterproof from the inside with a perimeter drain and drainage plain... but this all costs much much more than a few coats of paint.

 

[bigbadbiddy]

That would be a rather big undertaking though.

I feel safe, knowing it isn't harmful.

Read up some more on the topic and seems like the special caulk/cement/mortar I plan to use is the right way to go.
Renew that every bunch of years (like 4-7) and it should be fine.
It will create a layer for the salts to "efflorescen" (?) into and thus not disturb anything painted/layered on top for quite a while.

The question remains what to paint on top.
If I plan to renew it every bunch of years, there are probably quite a few options.

Will consult my options.
Sorry there is no Kilz here.
But I am sure many good options. Will see if I can get "breathable" painting.
Problem is, it won't be washable then ... But that should be alright.

Upgrading the insulation from the outside will be a large project, will do that some time later.
Just wanted to know if I'm good to grow with those salts possibly coming out of the wall or if that will ruin my crops.

Lookin good

 

[queequeg152]

That would be a rather big undertaking though.

I feel safe, knowing it isn't harmful.

Read up some more on the topic and seems like the special caulk/cement/mortar I plan to use is the right way to go.
Renew that every bunch of years (like 4-7) and it should be fine.
It will create a layer for the salts to "efflorescen" (?) into and thus not disturb anything painted/layered on top for quite a while.

The question remains what to paint on top.
If I plan to renew it every bunch of years, there are probably quite a few options.

Will consult my options.
Sorry there is no Kilz here.
But I am sure many good options. Will see if I can get "breathable" painting.
Problem is, it won't be washable then ... But that should be alright.

Upgrading the insulation from the outside will be a large project, will do that some time later.
Just wanted to know if I'm good to grow with those salts possibly coming out of the wall or if that will ruin my crops.

Lookin good

i take it you have a CMU/cinderblock foundation wall?

im curious about this mortar/caulk you speak of. ive never heard of it... you mind linking to it?

yes waterproofing the basement for real would be a huge expensive undertaking. i dont reccomend it unless you have some serious know how and access to demo hammers and shit.

on the otherhand if you are planning on converting this to a LIVABLE or finished basement at some point it might be worth while... a finished basement is usually a decent investment... not a great one, but a decent return on your investment with regard to your houses value-if done properly.

have you ever lived in this place through a serious storm? lots of rain for days on end?

edit:

instead of "breathable" try searching for high perm paints or vapor permeable paints. these are more industry specific terms rather than breathable.

 

[mojave green]

Why not just frame the walls with 2x4s, insulate and Cover with Sheetrock?

 

[queequeg152]

it depends on how wet your basement is.
if this is in very dry soil you could get away with that construction, but its not appropriate in most conditions.

in a more damp basement, once you start cooling the basement, the vapor would be trapped within that wall assembly just like it is with the paint.

you need a drainage plane that allows the water to condense outside the wall and run into something like a perimeter drain & sump.
the drainage plane can be anything... even just an airgap & tar paper... or some thing like the fancy plastic sheeting with bumps or corrugations, its up to you.
even with spray foam-arguably the most air tight you can get, they usually still include a drainage plane in the form of a fabric wicking material extending up into the foam to wall interface. the wick material usually drains to a sump somewhere.

the drainage plane is the issue. its the work involved in jacking out the slab for a retrofit perimeter drain and sump... and then patching it back together.

if your slab has no vapor barrier and appropriate stone underneath you might have to remove the whole damned thing to get satisfactory results.

 

[311devon]

Here's my :

Fur the walls out a bit and cover with panda/orca/your choice grow film. Hang the film just short of the floor and ceiling so there is an air gap along top and bottom of the film along the length of the wall letting it breathe. A tiny bit of negative pressure in your room will pull air through the gaps at top and bottom of the film and cycle air between the film wall and the concrete wall.

 

[queequeg152]

Here's my :

Fur the walls out a bit and cover with panda/orca/your choice grow film. Hang the film just short of the floor and ceiling so there is an air gap along top and bottom of the film along the length of the wall letting it breathe. A tiny bit of negative pressure in your room will pull air through the gaps at top and bottom of the film and cycle air between the film wall and the concrete wall.

where is the air going to come from???

you wound need to punch holes in the rim joist or exterior sheathing then somehow direct the air from the hole down the wall, then out into the space... considering joists are spaced 16 or 24" o.c. this is a stupid amount of work and a bad idea in general what with moisture being able to get inside your home... wind driven rain, splashing etc.
even if you installed louvers or some such device to prevent the above, you still run the risk of drawing in hotter moist air and condensing it onto your foundation walls...as obiviously they are gong to be cooler than air temps during much of the summer time.

it would be so much easier to just use a fucking dehumidifier. probably cheaper to.

regardless its not the day to day water vapor migration that you are most concerned with, its the days when it rains on end and water actually starts moving up through the slab, or through your walls and collecting in your basement. thats what these sump and perimiter drains are designed and sized to handle. else why put 2500 bucks of flooring in your 800 sq.ft. basement when its just going to flood eveyr 5 years or what ever.

hes far better off doing nothing and just getting a good dehuy than punching holes in shit. far better off.

 

[311devon]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]discovered that old paint in basement room peels off walls.

Further inspection shows dry, white, fuzzy looking substance coming out of the wall and pressing the paint out.

[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I want to put my main flowering room into one of the corners affected the worst by damp walls and "white fuzz".
Let's not get into the why and wha?

So I was told this special "mortar" or "caulk" or what you call it wherever you are, should work.
It is used in bathroom installations and such as well as in similar situations to mine.
It basically allows the wall to "breathe" and transport the moisture out. So it doesn't get stuck in the wall and grows no mold/whatever.

Issue with that stuff is afaik you can't paint over it because that would seal the area, prohibiting it from breathing --> same issue as before.
The mortar/caulk is white but surely no par+ whatever reflection xD

Was hoping to get away with using that special mortar/caulk and hanging panda film on top..

Will that leave me with mold/pest colonies behind the panda film?
Or should I be good? It really just seems like salt secretion and has been constantly like that for at least the 50 years the previous lady was there. Most of the basement is only slightly affected. If it would spread it should have fucked it all up years ago. They haven't renoved in 30 or 40 years either.
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]

where is the air going to come from???

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]you wound need to punch holes in the rim joist or exterior sheathing then somehow direct the air from the hole down the wall, then out into the space... considering joists are spaced 16 or 24" o.c. this is a stupid amount of work and a bad idea in general what with moisture being able to get inside your home... wind driven rain, splashing etc.
even if you installed louvers or some such device to prevent the above, you still run the risk of drawing in hotter moist air and condensing it onto your foundation walls...as obiviously they are gong to be cooler than air temps during much of the summer time.

it would be so much easier to just use a fucking dehumidifier. probably cheaper to.

regardless its not the day to day water vapor migration that you are most concerned with, its the days when it rains on end and water actually starts moving up through the slab, or through your walls and collecting in your basement. thats what these sump and perimiter drains are designed and sized to handle. else why put 2500 bucks of flooring in your 800 sq.ft. basement when its just going to flood eveyr 5 years or what ever.

hes far better off doing nothing and just getting a good dehuy than punching holes in shit. far better off. [/FONT]

As I understood the OP, we are talking about a basement thats at 72% during the winter. Any grower with any experience will know immediately some form of dehuey is needed here.

The OP states he desires to cover the walls in a flower room with panda film and two of the walls are damp outside walls.

The simple solution is to use the rest of the basement or the framed room that the smaller flower room is built into as a lung room. Climate control the air space outside of the flower room and duct this cooled and dehumidfied air into it. Size a passive intake into the flower room so an exhaust fan blowing back into the climate controlled airspace develops a small amount of negative pressure in the flower room. Hang the film short of the floor and ceiling as I described previously, using vertical furring strips with horizontal "cleats" to tack the film to. The thickness of the "cleats" will create a gap allowing the neg pressure generated by the exhaust fan to pull air past the wall mitigating any dampness that might generate mold/mildew/funk. To fully exchange the air behind the film one might need to essentially panel over a large portion of the furring strips with two "cleat" panels leaving a horizontal channel through the center of the height of the wall, creating plenums running between the vertical strips that flow from the center to the upper and lower end and out past the short film.

This solution will not work if the flower room is taking up the entire basement and 4 damp walls need to be dealt with. At least one wall has to be facing into a larger airspace. 3 damp walls in a growspace could be handled this way, but it would take a bit of tuning the "plenums" to get air to flow behind the back wall properly.

 

[queequeg152]

As I understood the OP, we are talking about a basement thats at 72% during the winter. Any grower with any experience will know immediately some form of dehuey is needed here.

The OP states he desires to cover the walls in a flower room with panda film and two of the walls are damp outside walls.

The simple solution is to use the rest of the basement or the framed room that the smaller flower room is built into as a lung room. Climate control the air space outside of the flower room and duct this cooled and dehumidfied air into it. Size a passive intake into the flower room so an exhaust fan blowing back into the climate controlled airspace develops a small amount of negative pressure in the flower room. Hang the film short of the floor and ceiling as I described previously, using vertical furring strips with horizontal "cleats" to tack the film to. The thickness of the "cleats" will create a gap allowing the neg pressure generated by the exhaust fan to pull air past the wall mitigating any dampness that might generate mold/mildew/funk. To fully exchange the air behind the film one might need to essentially panel over a large portion of the furring strips with two "cleat" panels leaving a horizontal channel through the center of the height of the wall, creating plenums running between the vertical strips that flow from the center to the upper and lower end and out past the short film.

This solution will not work if the flower room is taking up the entire basement and 4 damp walls need to be dealt with. At least one wall has to be facing into a larger airspace. 3 damp walls in a growspace could be handled this way, but it would take a bit of tuning the "plenums" to get air to flow behind the back wall properly.

i cant visualize what you are proposing.

but mylar on walls? dont you guys ever worry about fire? mylar is metallized polyethylene... its very flamable unless some huge change has been made to the mylar industry.
im sure what ever you are proposing could be done with lightweight 1/2" drywall instead.

your whole proposal seems to revolve around moving air across these walls. i dont get this to be honest here. why not just leave the walls exposed and simply dehuy the air like crazy? you are going to have the same moisture draw into the space regardless, unless you can keep the walls warmer and more humid than the interior space.

 

[311devon]

i cant visualize what you are proposing.

but mylar on walls? dont you guys ever worry about fire? mylar is metallized polyethylene... its very flamable unless some huge change has been made to the mylar industry.
im sure what ever you are proposing could be done with lightweight 1/2" drywall instead.

You are correct. Any surface desired could be used. For the record I am not a fan of mylar. I use ORCA these days. As for fire, the room should be built where it is impossible to heat up the mylar that much. I would hazard to guess that if you have enough light to hotspot mylar into combustion, you are gonna have crispy brown leaves beforehand......

your whole proposal seems to revolve around moving air across these walls. i dont get this to be honest here. why not just leave the walls exposed and simply dehuy the air like crazy? you are going to have the same moisture draw into the space regardless, unless you can keep the walls warmer and more humid than the interior space.

The OP wants to cover the wall with something more releflective. Doing so in the traditional ways applied directly to the wall will create imbalance in the wall as you suggested....One could do the same thing by just framing in a flower room all four sides and leaving a gap between the room and the outside walls. The other method is more complicated but allows the room to be tucked into the corner tighter. Another less permanent solution would be a grow tent.

 

[queequeg152]

You are correct. Any surface desired could be used. For the record I am not a fan of mylar. I use ORCA these days. As for fire, the room should be built where it is impossible to heat up the mylar that much. I would hazard to guess that if you have enough light to hotspot mylar into combustion, you are gonna have crispy brown leaves beforehand......



The OP wants to cover the wall with something more releflective. Doing so in the traditional ways applied directly to the wall will create imbalance in the wall as you suggested....One could do the same thing by just framing in a flower room all four sides and leaving a gap between the room and the outside walls. The other method is more complicated but allows the room to be tucked into the corner tighter. Another less permanent solution would be a grow tent.

about fires. heres the thing. preventing a fire from starting is only like 50% of it. the other 50% is preventing fires from spreading after it starts.

LDPE or mylar plastic sheeting will not self extinguish so it should not be used in these huge insane quantities. paint + drywall is probably only a bit more expensive. maby less idk.

idk what orca film is, but i doubt its much different. i could be wrong though.

far as reflectivity is concerned... i doubt its worth the effort and cost personally, but you could probably find a fire resistant material thats suitable.

yea drywall would work but i have a hard time imagining hanging it JUST for reflectivity?

 

[311devon]

LDPE or mylar plastic sheeting will not self extinguish so it should not be used in these huge insane quantities.

Huge, insane quantity? Arent we talking about a typicaly sized flower room built into the corner of a basement? IE a "normal" amount of sheeting......???

As for Orca....love this stuff... http://www.orcagrowfilm.com/article-a/149.htm

 

[MIway]

Why do u need the paint to be breathable? To suck more moisture inside to then dry it w either normal air circ or a deuy? Why?

If u clean all the buildup thoroughly, then seal the inside walls w moisture resistant primer/top coat, that should end ur problem. No more water coming through the wall, less humidity, no salt build up. Peeps that put in a livining area in a damp basement seal the walls this way all the time, then just frame and drywall.

U wont be digging out 2-3' all the way around your foundation from the outside and then do a proper sealing anyway, so sealing the inside wall is the next best thing. I think u r overthinking it.

Id seal it w a good primer like the kilz, or something like it. Maybe even look into a marine paint/primer, assuming it will bond well w cement. Ez as painting and venting... And prepping the wall before.