Salinity bill drake

[Bio boy]

So I borrowed a bill drake book from 1969 as it had some articles I wanted to read and on the soil it says even if you don’t add ferts it will salt up and need to be changed ….
notill and the living soil are keeping it soil after soil though ? Reusing and remineralising ?
by till 5 coot I got na levels beyond my chips and fish and that’s salty
so I revised my anendments to salt free,,,this guide says all that efforts is feeble and pointless as ya need to change it every grow ?

 

[Dr.Mantis]

So I borrowed a bill drake book from 1969 as it had some articles I wanted to read and on the soil it says even if you don’t add ferts it will salt up and need to be changed ….
notill and the living soil are keeping it soil after soil though ? Reusing and remineralising ?
by till 5 coot I got na levels beyond my chips and fish and that’s salty
so I revised my anendments to salt free,,,this guide says all that efforts is feeble and pointless as ya need to change it every grow ?
View attachment 18819618

My opinion is that salt accumulation in any soil is a possibility, especially if you are using salt based fertilizers ( makes sense). However, even organic soils will get salty as the microbes mineralize the organic inputs. One way to minimize this is to only add what your plants need, and keep in mind the fate of the counter ions used. For example, if your water has a fair amount of alkalinity and your are using a tbsp of epsom salt every time you water (random example) you are probably going to accumulate quite a bit of insoluble carbonates and kinda soluble sulfates over time. If you were to instead use lower ppm water, and say use only the necessary ppm of Mg with a soluble counter ion like citrate, this problem would be mitigated. You can also flush your medium with acidified distilled water a few times if it gets really salty.

Btw I’m a huge organics fan, but you need to watch out. A lot of the stuff pedaled is salty overpriced crap.

 

[Dime]

I wonder if he was referring to taking backyard soil and using it as he mentions UV sterilization.Leaching acidifies the soil outdoors by rainfall and buildup of decaying plant material,animal and insect excretions and bacterial actions,the extent of it depends on the ph of rain and the decaying material etc.If the soil gets a lot of rain it can become acidic and pools.Nitrogen is the biggest modifier and phosphorous is small in comparison but does do it,nitrogen can quickly lower the Ph depending on what form of nitrogen is used,this is true for phosphorous as well.Amonia based like urea would have most potential and nitrate based are least to acidify.Plant uptake,confined roots can cause ph shift,uneven drainage, and also combinations of everything,Potassium has little to no effect .In those days wells were common so that would add a lot of minerals and increase top layer salt build up. Reusing soil is counter productive as you don't know what is in there so you don't know what is and is not needed when you fertilize so it's safer to start new and is affordable. It sounds like he grows and adds nothing until it is depleted.For indoor grows unless you want to be really close to organic you are much better off using a neutral medium like promix , ammending it for better drainage and using a good brand name fertilizer meant for it. Good luck.

 

[Bio boy]

My opinion is that salt accumulation in any soil is a possibility, especially if you are using salt based fertilizers ( makes sense). However, even organic soils will get salty as the microbes mineralize the organic inputs. One way to minimize this is to only add what your plants need, and keep in mind the fate of the counter ions used. For example, if your water has a fair amount of alkalinity and your are using a tbsp of epsom salt every time you water (random example) you are probably going to accumulate quite a bit of insoluble carbonates and kinda soluble sulfates over time. If you were to instead use lower ppm water, and say use only the necessary ppm of Mg with a soluble counter ion like citrate, this problem would be mitigated. You can also flush your medium with acidified distilled water a few times if it gets really salty.

Btw I’m a huge organics fan, but you need to watch out. A lot of the stuff pedaled is salty overpriced crap.

Yeah I amend my mediums bitumen I didn’t add crab I did gypsum and limestone
mg killed my soil il never add that again lol
kelp I’ve not added this round like they say at 1/2 a cube I added 1/10 instead and added alfalfa bran my own made fish etc lol

 

[Dr.Mantis]

Yeah I amend my mediums bitumen I didn’t add crab I did gypsum and limestone
mg killed my soil il never add that again lol
kelp I’ve not added this round like they say at 1/2 a cube I added 1/10 instead and added alfalfa bran my own made fish etc lol

Lol yeah I’ve added some dumb stuff to my soils before, because I saw it some “pro” YouTube video. Many ruminant manures, for example, are salty as shut! Most tap water has loads of calcium and a fair amount of Mg. Another point on saltiness. As long as you have some run off and don’t let the medium soak in the rub off, that will help manage the saltiness too.
Alfalfa is great imo, so are fish and seaweed and kelp. Just watch out for Na conc in fish and seaweed/kelp. I’ve fond that most reputable companies have data sheets for non npk constituents if there stuff. Those can be really helpful for understanding saltiness.

One finally thing to mention, the non soluble fraction of your soil can really help alleviate the saltiness of your soil. Materials with high cation exchange capacity are awesome for soil. This includes things like peat moss and leonardite.

 

[Nannymouse]

The word 'salt' really baffles me. As far as i know, Epsom Salts has no SALT(sodium chloride type) in it. I thought that the reason they call it 'salt' is that it is crystaline, like table salt.

Also, i laugh a little at people paying big bucks for magnesium 'oil'. The way that it is made: adding water to epsom salts just short of dissolving all the crystals, then straining off the water. Hubby and a neighbor both fell for the marketing hype on that. It just 'feels' oily/slick. So, the markets are charging LOTS more $ for adding water(and advertising).

Our well water was huge on sodium, but not sodium chloride. Even after taking college inorganic chemistry, this stuff is confusing.

 

[Dr.Mantis]

The word 'salt' really baffles me. As far as i know, Epsom Salts has no SALT(sodium chloride type) in it. I thought that the reason they call it 'salt' is that it is crystaline, like table salt.

Also, i laugh a little at people paying big bucks for magnesium 'oil'. The way that it is made: adding water to epsom salts just short of dissolving all the crystals, then straining off the water. Hubby and a neighbor both fell for the marketing hype on that. It just 'feels' oily/slick. So, the markets are charging LOTS more $ for adding water(and advertising).

Our well water was huge on sodium, but not sodium chloride. Even after taking college inorganic chemistry, this stuff is confusing.

Yeah I agree on the confusing terminology. In chemistry “salts” refer to ionic compounds composed of a charged ion(s) and a corresponding negatively charged cation(s). So, Epsom salt is indeed a salt. However, in terms of soil biochemistry, not all salts are equivalent.

If you’ve ever seen terms like “saline” or “sodic” these terms refer to specific types of salts. Saline is usually referring to soils with lots of table salt, and sodic refers to soils with lots of sodium. So, your well for example, would be sodic water but not saline. Lol I agree it’s confusing, I think the problem is the weird overlap of academic terms and colloquial terms.

 

[Bio boy]

True it’s not a salt but causes compactation and upsets the balance of p k and then you have a soil the grabs the na rapidly which compacts soil also and then ya screwed slow and others say if you add mg to soil your waiting to fail
kis did a doc on it too

 

[Dime]

The word 'salt' really baffles me. As far as i know, Epsom Salts has no SALT(sodium chloride type) in it. I thought that the reason they call it 'salt' is that it is crystaline, like table salt.

Also, i laugh a little at people paying big bucks for magnesium 'oil'. The way that it is made: adding water to epsom salts just short of dissolving all the crystals, then straining off the water. Hubby and a neighbor both fell for the marketing hype on that. It just 'feels' oily/slick. So, the markets are charging LOTS more $ for adding water(and advertising).

Our well water was huge on sodium, but not sodium chloride. Even after taking college inorganic chemistry, this stuff is confusing.

I think if it is formed by an acid base reaction ex replacing hydrogen in an acid by metal, chemist consider it a salt

 

[Bio boy]

I think if it is formed by an acid base reaction ex replacing hydrogen in an acid by metal, chemist consider it a salt

Sodium​

Sodium (Na) is an essential mineral required by all animals in a wide range of physiological functions. Certain root crops – e.g. sugar beet, carrots and parsnips – are responsive to sodium fertilisers, some of which can be used to replace potassium inputs. In grass, sodium improves forage palatability and reduces the risk of metabolic disorders such as hypomagnesemia (grassland staggers) in livestock.​

keep a crop on and should be fine eh ?

 

[Bio boy]

therengood root crops that airate the soil with long tubular paths without tilling
so the salts kept in the tops then would you discard the tops or mulch them as salt has to have been used up at some point eh bothing Stays the same 50 in 50 out kinda shit

so the carrots n parsnips I eat lol , the tops I can throw at the chickens and fertilize soil with chicken shit again and keep a cover crop going that will remove the salt n keep soil covered to stop erosion etc lol

also grasses so my alfalfa and rye grass will do good too the alfalfa I brew and the rye dry and mulch or move ferilise and plant new feed grass to chickens haha

 

[Dime]

I think most plants only need it in trace amounts and it helps with co2 use or something. When I started I got an old book by an author who grew hydroponically in the desert for the army and it was thorough and I made my own nutrient mix with salts that I bought in bulk and just used the Hoagland formula from the 1930's which is all you really get when you buy premixed anyway at a fraction of the price minus the fancy labels and claims,you could also buy it as an "A" and "B" mixed for you at Homegrown Hydroponics stores( I think they called it the "Dutch Formula " to make it more attractive)and just buy the macro including chelated iron in powder.