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HS-UK was among the 4 listed as being down
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Sad News on RC...PLEASE READ...
- Thread starter Gypsy Nirvana
- Start date
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Guest
Is there a way to donate to their legal expenses, if every member on here sent $5.00 that would come out to more then $40,000.00US
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Guest
here is a faq from Lothar that should calm some of the paranoia...
One more by Lothar. Faq 1375
Is Overgrow safe?
Added by: snoofer Viewed: 150 times Rated by 13 users: 9.14/10
Contributed by: Lothar
The following is a rough rant on Security and Overgrow.com. I need to get some more info from the feds and lawyers who deal specifically with Internet issues - this article will be much improved over time.
I have seen the same concern popping up again and again:
Is Overgrow safe? Can LEO get my IP?
Q: Is LEO actively trying to gather info on Overgrow members?
A: Probably. Does it much matter? Not really.
Be assured that the DEA, RCMP and various other agencies, have the time and money to hire some very intelligent people with almost infinite resources when it comes to hacking and Internet sleuthing in general. If they want your IP, with few exceptions, they will get it.
Q: "Does this put me at any kind of risk"
A: I will say that you are 99% safe, even if they find out your ip and track you.
How can this be?
1. Hacking is illegal.
Courts will not tolerate police doing illegal things to gain evidence to be used in a trial proper. The reason that you see cases thrown out of court for search violations is often due to defense lawyers attacking and quashing a warrant.
However, if a cop taps your phone, searches your house or goes through your banking records with no warrant at all, then that is an even more egregious and illegal violation of basic rights and the evidence gained (and all subsequent evidence flowing from that) will never see the inside of a courtroom.
2. A warrant would be required to gain access to a server's records, (to gain useful information for) an investigation or prosecution. (I've got a funny feeling that should that happen here, we might hear about it.)
Ok, let's say the cops get a warrant somehow, (The possible grounds for the police to get a warrant for Overgrow in the first place are a mystery to me) and take Overgrow's servers apart, finding all our IPs, then what?
The police now have an IP. Whose IP? Apparently someone, somewhere, who has access to that computer with that IP has been claiming that they grow marijuana.
Which person? Is that person, who has been using that computer under an alias, reliable? Maybe it's a lot of bullshit boasting. And what about those pictures? Who do they belong to? Is it really that mysterious person's house (what house? - the house with the IP / ISP registration or is the grow somewhere else?)
....See where I'm going here?
Imagine if you were the cop showing up with a blank warrant before a judge - To Search: "mystery person" at "mystery location" for "fourth party, unconfirmed anonymous tip"
3. The information on the Overgrow server is effectively an anonymous tip since the source of the information (an unknown entity behind a keyboard at a particular IP) cannot be established to be credible or even properly known.
It was explained by both myself and our American legalists that anonymous tips are not enough for a warrant because the origin of the tip could not be established to be credible.
Even if the police magically obtain a warrant for Overgrow, they still have to get another warrant for you. There is no real possibility that they will get a warrant for YOU since they have no clue who YOU are or where your grow is.
There are also cross-jurisdictional issues here since this server is somewhere in Canada.
4. Now here's what the cops can do. Once they have gathered enough legitimate evidence that you are growing (in the real world) (Smell, hydro bills, pictures of you carrying christmas tree sized plants out your door) then they will come in and, with a warrant, seize your computer and use whatever they find on it in your prosecution. But then so what? By that point your fun is over anyway.
Police do illegal things all the time, my point is that it will not get them very far. You will have to have screwed up in the real world first.
One more by Lothar. Faq 1375
Is Overgrow safe?
Added by: snoofer Viewed: 150 times Rated by 13 users: 9.14/10
Contributed by: Lothar
The following is a rough rant on Security and Overgrow.com. I need to get some more info from the feds and lawyers who deal specifically with Internet issues - this article will be much improved over time.
I have seen the same concern popping up again and again:
Is Overgrow safe? Can LEO get my IP?
Q: Is LEO actively trying to gather info on Overgrow members?
A: Probably. Does it much matter? Not really.
Be assured that the DEA, RCMP and various other agencies, have the time and money to hire some very intelligent people with almost infinite resources when it comes to hacking and Internet sleuthing in general. If they want your IP, with few exceptions, they will get it.
Q: "Does this put me at any kind of risk"
A: I will say that you are 99% safe, even if they find out your ip and track you.
How can this be?
1. Hacking is illegal.
Courts will not tolerate police doing illegal things to gain evidence to be used in a trial proper. The reason that you see cases thrown out of court for search violations is often due to defense lawyers attacking and quashing a warrant.
However, if a cop taps your phone, searches your house or goes through your banking records with no warrant at all, then that is an even more egregious and illegal violation of basic rights and the evidence gained (and all subsequent evidence flowing from that) will never see the inside of a courtroom.
2. A warrant would be required to gain access to a server's records, (to gain useful information for) an investigation or prosecution. (I've got a funny feeling that should that happen here, we might hear about it.)
Ok, let's say the cops get a warrant somehow, (The possible grounds for the police to get a warrant for Overgrow in the first place are a mystery to me) and take Overgrow's servers apart, finding all our IPs, then what?
The police now have an IP. Whose IP? Apparently someone, somewhere, who has access to that computer with that IP has been claiming that they grow marijuana.
Which person? Is that person, who has been using that computer under an alias, reliable? Maybe it's a lot of bullshit boasting. And what about those pictures? Who do they belong to? Is it really that mysterious person's house (what house? - the house with the IP / ISP registration or is the grow somewhere else?)
....See where I'm going here?
Imagine if you were the cop showing up with a blank warrant before a judge - To Search: "mystery person" at "mystery location" for "fourth party, unconfirmed anonymous tip"
3. The information on the Overgrow server is effectively an anonymous tip since the source of the information (an unknown entity behind a keyboard at a particular IP) cannot be established to be credible or even properly known.
It was explained by both myself and our American legalists that anonymous tips are not enough for a warrant because the origin of the tip could not be established to be credible.
Even if the police magically obtain a warrant for Overgrow, they still have to get another warrant for you. There is no real possibility that they will get a warrant for YOU since they have no clue who YOU are or where your grow is.
There are also cross-jurisdictional issues here since this server is somewhere in Canada.
4. Now here's what the cops can do. Once they have gathered enough legitimate evidence that you are growing (in the real world) (Smell, hydro bills, pictures of you carrying christmas tree sized plants out your door) then they will come in and, with a warrant, seize your computer and use whatever they find on it in your prosecution. But then so what? By that point your fun is over anyway.
Police do illegal things all the time, my point is that it will not get them very far. You will have to have screwed up in the real world first.
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Dube Nukem
New member
Chuck Liddell said:
The bottom line is this...If your Canadian and you posted pictures of an indoor grow and the P.C. from which you posted pictures from is at the address or your ISP is registered to the address at which your indoor grow is at, you are in deep shit.
Once the server and or the site forum files have been confiscated by authorities it immediately grants LEO agencies the right to obtain search warrents based on probable cause.
For those who are not PC savy, the cable that connects your PC to the internet is connected to a network card and or an integrated network chip on the mainboard of your PC. The IC's on the network card or integrated chip contain a unique address called a "MAC Address".
Your MAC address, is assigned an Internet Protocol Address or I.P. address by your internet service provider. Every single time a post is made whether you attach images or not, your IP remains in the file system of the discussion forums, the only way a site can flush the IP addresses is to delete any and all posts on that site...basically delete the whole forum installation then re-install it and go fresh from there.
Your IP address will be traced to your ISP (Internet Service Provider) and ultimately the provider will have no choice but to cooperate with authorities and divulge the associated information of the account user to which the MAC address was assigned the IP by the ISP...follow me?....the proof for LEO is undeniable.
Again if your like me who took pictures last summer of an outdoor plant or two...no big deal, you probably burned it all up by now like I have.
If you were brave enough to post indoor pics of your grow and had a rather large one...you make the call.
For you American folk....your as good as toast because of the patriot act...they can waltz right into your local without a search warrant and your busted...as simple as that.
All they have to do is examine the posts, determine whose images will provide the biggest possibilities of a successful bust and they will go for it.
Discussing Marajuana online isn't a crime....demonstrating that you are partaking in an illegal act suchas growing it, especially demonstrating that you can do it in large quantaties for distribution will provide more than enough justification to warrant a search and seizure of the premises associated to your IP /MAC/ISP information.
Like I said...for those who posted indoor pics....it's your judgment call to make.
Peace & Good Luck.
Dube Nukem.
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Guest
Dube Nukem....Are you a lawyer??? Because if not your speaking out of ignorance. From what your saying that LEO can barge into anyones home that posted pics of an inside grow...sounds like more lawsuits then busts to me considering only a very small percentage of growers use the net from there grow site. I mean why is Emery's site still up after he was taken down?? Because there after the seed sellers not the growers....What LEO wants is for everyone to get alarmed and tear down there grows so there work is done for them. So let them come smash Aunty Jones' door in after little Johnny posted some pics of his grow from her computer..
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Country Mon
Active member
Facts vs. Paranoid Speculation
Facts vs. Paranoid Speculation
Everyone needs to SLOW DOWN a bit with the paranoia. Where the hell is NORML, to provide some rational and sane advice to people based upon facts? Pretty lame of them. They need to provide some basic leadership here. Otherwise what the hell are they good for?
I'd like to suggest to Gypsy that a main sticky thread be created a.s.a.p. that is titled something like "FACTUAL INFORMATION", which contains only that, and also hopefully some sound legal advice for both Canadians and those in the US. A FAQ with regular updates on the current situation. Anyone who has factual info can then submit it to Gypsy for consideration for that FAQ thread.
This whole event has far-reaching implications for the entire cannabis-friendly world, and it will continue to unfold over the coming weeks and months. What we need right now is a single place (FAQ) where we can pop in and pick up any new important facts on a daily basis, minus all the "oh, shit!" posts.
Canadians, you know your laws more than I do. But as for the people freaking out in the US, nobody seems to be considering the jurisdictional nightmare that it would be to try to go after each member of CW and OG in the States. There are federal laws, state laws, and city and county policies in place about who to target in the drug war. The Feds can't just bust anyone they please; they have to follow established legal protocol. State rights are not so easily trampled upon. Yet.
The Patriot Act won't help them in this case, I don't think. Especially with marginal evidence like just an IP address and some loose discussion on a BB about their grow. Tying a posted pic to an IP address and then tying that to a person in any concrete fashion - who is then busted for it - would be extremely difficult. Has this EVER been accomplished? I don't think so.
If the DEA wanted to go after anyone in any given state in the US, they would have to first have proof that the grow was "qualified" for federal enforcement action, rather than just falling into the category of just a state law infraction. That means they would need direct evidence that more than 100 plants were grown, or that a border was crossed with product, etcetera.
For medical MJ states this "jurisdictional nightmare" is even more complicated. Note that even in CA the feds still only go after those producing more than 100 plants in their eradication pogroms. Anything less is considered a state issue - one that requires state LEO enforcement. Yes, even if the basic fed law says that -any- medical MJ is federally illegal, the state has to move on it first unless the Feds have proof of more than 100 plants etcetera. And to make things more complicated, the feds would then need the full cooperation of local/city/county police to actually participate in the raids. To what end?
States don't have the money for this bullshit, and I really don't think that the political will is there to do this. Most cops think that wasting funds on small-scale cannabis busts is a complete waste of resources.
So my point is this. I find it highly unlikely that the DEA is going to try to force various state city/county LEOs to move on people due to some posted pics and some logged IP addresses. It would be a witch hunt that would have an enormous political backlash in public opinion. It would completely backfire in their faces.
They can accomplish far more by simply taking out those at the top; all of the seed breeders and sellers and distributors. This explains the news blackout: they are still after those people. Another main objective is putting the clamp on information by shutting down the web sites that provide people with factual information. Without information about exactly what the hell is up, most growers will just crap their pants and break down their grows. I wouldn't be surprised if they come after Gypsy and this site, but that may be more complicated due to his location.
First and foremost, we need to stop panicking. We need more valid information, specifically from a qualified lawyer, NORML representative or those directly connected to RC and his situation. The info coming in from internet-savvy folks is good stuff, and it needs to be consolidated. If firewalls can be back-doored without the user knowing, and if there is an effective firewall we need to know about it, and soon. We also need to know which anon proxy service is best to use.
For now, people who are continuing to come here need to take steps to use a safe IP address. Go to an internet cafe if you can.
Whew. Not what I was hoping to write for my first post.
CM
Facts vs. Paranoid Speculation
Everyone needs to SLOW DOWN a bit with the paranoia. Where the hell is NORML, to provide some rational and sane advice to people based upon facts? Pretty lame of them. They need to provide some basic leadership here. Otherwise what the hell are they good for?
I'd like to suggest to Gypsy that a main sticky thread be created a.s.a.p. that is titled something like "FACTUAL INFORMATION", which contains only that, and also hopefully some sound legal advice for both Canadians and those in the US. A FAQ with regular updates on the current situation. Anyone who has factual info can then submit it to Gypsy for consideration for that FAQ thread.
This whole event has far-reaching implications for the entire cannabis-friendly world, and it will continue to unfold over the coming weeks and months. What we need right now is a single place (FAQ) where we can pop in and pick up any new important facts on a daily basis, minus all the "oh, shit!" posts.
Canadians, you know your laws more than I do. But as for the people freaking out in the US, nobody seems to be considering the jurisdictional nightmare that it would be to try to go after each member of CW and OG in the States. There are federal laws, state laws, and city and county policies in place about who to target in the drug war. The Feds can't just bust anyone they please; they have to follow established legal protocol. State rights are not so easily trampled upon. Yet.
The Patriot Act won't help them in this case, I don't think. Especially with marginal evidence like just an IP address and some loose discussion on a BB about their grow. Tying a posted pic to an IP address and then tying that to a person in any concrete fashion - who is then busted for it - would be extremely difficult. Has this EVER been accomplished? I don't think so.
If the DEA wanted to go after anyone in any given state in the US, they would have to first have proof that the grow was "qualified" for federal enforcement action, rather than just falling into the category of just a state law infraction. That means they would need direct evidence that more than 100 plants were grown, or that a border was crossed with product, etcetera.
For medical MJ states this "jurisdictional nightmare" is even more complicated. Note that even in CA the feds still only go after those producing more than 100 plants in their eradication pogroms. Anything less is considered a state issue - one that requires state LEO enforcement. Yes, even if the basic fed law says that -any- medical MJ is federally illegal, the state has to move on it first unless the Feds have proof of more than 100 plants etcetera. And to make things more complicated, the feds would then need the full cooperation of local/city/county police to actually participate in the raids. To what end?
States don't have the money for this bullshit, and I really don't think that the political will is there to do this. Most cops think that wasting funds on small-scale cannabis busts is a complete waste of resources.
So my point is this. I find it highly unlikely that the DEA is going to try to force various state city/county LEOs to move on people due to some posted pics and some logged IP addresses. It would be a witch hunt that would have an enormous political backlash in public opinion. It would completely backfire in their faces.
They can accomplish far more by simply taking out those at the top; all of the seed breeders and sellers and distributors. This explains the news blackout: they are still after those people. Another main objective is putting the clamp on information by shutting down the web sites that provide people with factual information. Without information about exactly what the hell is up, most growers will just crap their pants and break down their grows. I wouldn't be surprised if they come after Gypsy and this site, but that may be more complicated due to his location.
First and foremost, we need to stop panicking. We need more valid information, specifically from a qualified lawyer, NORML representative or those directly connected to RC and his situation. The info coming in from internet-savvy folks is good stuff, and it needs to be consolidated. If firewalls can be back-doored without the user knowing, and if there is an effective firewall we need to know about it, and soon. We also need to know which anon proxy service is best to use.
For now, people who are continuing to come here need to take steps to use a safe IP address. Go to an internet cafe if you can.
Whew. Not what I was hoping to write for my first post.
CM
Dube Nukem
New member
No I'm not and clearly you don't know what the hell you are talking about...I just gave out some very sound advice and all you can come up with is "Your talking out your Ass!"?Chuck Liddell said:
For those who do have any common sense...you will get the message.
Remember, a Lawyers job is to untie LEO's knots, they can't prevent a search & seizure.
Peace.
D.N.
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Guest
Dube Nukem said:
EXACTLY!!
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Guest
ME262 said:
Riiight! Funny, in 25 years I spent working in the telecoms industry...military, corporate, telephone and broadband cable companies...starting "back in the 1970's"...I never came across this capability. But let me guess...its so super-secret that you're the only one who knows about it, right? To bad they couldn't get on to those 9/11 guys. I guess all of the resources were tied up on OG surveillance.
Yawn...an old story, circulates endlessly. Global conspiracy and all of that.
I heard about this like 10 years ago on TLC, yes The Learning Channel!!
They were speaking of a big underground facility that housed massive servers that could monitor all international calls, any calls that said certain keywords had their calls stored and checked on, the rest of the calls were eventually erased...
I heard they sent a missile or something after some conspirator or something (I forget what they said he was, been 10 years after all) the missile was locked on to him via his cell, he was using it......
Believe it or not, and no this is not Ripley's
The Gov has technology we will not know of for 20 or more years, some say 50....
I am sure only half of us can fathom the possibilities of their capabilities!!
Poof I'm Gone
Member
LoL..I'm not in a panic mode but Dube is right on and Country Mon, hell yes The Patriot Act can fall into play and be used as a tool for the DEA. They have already proved drugs finance terrorism and since you are manufactoring drugs there for you must be a terrosist supporter which gives them the right to come on in.
Don't underestimate the DEA and how much time and money they will piss away going after someone little. Trust me I know...been there.
And lets not forget they don't always play by the rules either.
Two things are true in America:
1. Justice is for the rich.
2. You are gulity untill you can afford to prove you are innocent.
Follow your instincs folks it's your freedom not anyone elses.
Don't underestimate the DEA and how much time and money they will piss away going after someone little. Trust me I know...been there.
And lets not forget they don't always play by the rules either.
Two things are true in America:
1. Justice is for the rich.
2. You are gulity untill you can afford to prove you are innocent.
Follow your instincs folks it's your freedom not anyone elses.
G
Guest
Poof I'm Gone said:
spiritual said:
You yourself, have alot to learn kid. This is a pretty ignorant post for the most part people, spreading more fear then facts. Most of it, untrue. While some proxy servers can be comprimised, the use of international proxy's are almost a must. Keep on protecting yourself and ignore the fear spreaders. Arm yourself with facts.
potheadpixie
Member
"I'd like to suggest to Gypsy that a main sticky thread be created a.s.a.p. that is titled something like "FACTUAL INFORMATION", which contains only that, and also hopefully some sound legal advice for both Canadians and those in the US. A FAQ with regular updates on the current situation. Anyone who has factual info can then submit it to Gypsy for consideration for that FAQ thread.'
Sounds like a good idea.
Sounds like a good idea.
sirstonealot
Active member
Some good info here, I agree with country mon (country mon did you do STS/SOG cannabis world ?) gypsy should make that sticky.
PEACE S.S
PEACE S.S
Poof I'm Gone
Member
What does that matter? You still go to jail that day...have to bond out ($$$$)
Get a lawyer ($$$$) loose all your grow equipment ($$$$) ect ect.
You got money to be pissing away? I don't.
G
Guest
JustLetThemGrow said:I heard about this like 10 years ago on TLC, yes The Learning Channel!!
They were speaking of a big underground facility that housed massive servers that could monitor all international calls, any calls that said certain keywords had their calls stored and checked on, the rest of the calls were eventually erased...
I heard they sent a missile or something after some conspirator or something (I forget what they said he was, been 10 years after all) the missile was locked on to him via his cell, he was using it......
Believe it or not, and no this is not Ripley's
The Gov has technology we will not know of for 20 or more years, some say 50....
I am sure only half of us can fathom the possibilities of their capabilities!!
Its called Echelon and Carnavore.There may be others, dont know.
G
Guest
Poof - if you don't have a muslim last name I wouldnt worry about the patriot act to much...lol
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Guest
Im in Canada and posted threads and pics on OG, I know the Po aren't going to roll to my crib for 5 - 8 MJ Plants. How they hell do they know im just not some 16 y/o kid talking out my ass using pics he found on the web. Small time growers take a chill pill... You think they're really going to start kicking grandma's door off just to chop a few trees down? PLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEASE Give a brutha break.
Now if I was growing a big cash crop and was posting pics from my home/grow then yeah I might consider taking it down now.
I have a feeling this will all blow over soon.
Just my two cents.
Now if I was growing a big cash crop and was posting pics from my home/grow then yeah I might consider taking it down now.
I have a feeling this will all blow over soon.
Just my two cents.
G
Guest
....
....Why would anyone grow where they live?
That,I don't....get.
. . . .
....Why would anyone grow where they live?
That,I don't....get.
. . . .
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