RRS - Improved Breeding for Closet Hacks

[McSnappler]

I've just been reading about Vic High's closet RRS breeding method, and was curious to know if any ICers are applying it, or have thoughts on it? I did have a little search around the forums and couldn't find much about it, other than a few posts by Bass Ackwards', one of which was the reason I was searching Google for this info in the first place.

I won't steal/quote the whole lot as I'm not sure what the etiquette is there (I think the webspace it's on is provided by another ganja forum), but here's the link to the full article. http://www.cannabase.com/cl/bcga/breeding/rrs/rrs.html

The introductory paragraph from Vic High..

Here is a simple model that can help explain how someone with as little as a 400watt garden and a flo clone bench could pull off an improved breeding project utilizing a derivitive of the RRS concept. This is not a strict blueprint, but just a general model that can be scaled up or down depending on the realities of the seed maker. In this case, I will assume that the clone bench is limited to 30 clones and the flower room limited to 20 flowering plants. Purists will find flaws in the model and and their insight is welcome as it can only add depth. However, I request that any that are not interested in the concept of improved breeding techniques to simple limit their participation to read only status. By all means questions about clarification are welcome, but ignorant attempts to discredit are not. As the starter of this thread, I ask the breeder mod to respect this wish and delete any extra "noise". If this isn't possible because of site policy, I will just remove this post and take it to a more selfish location

Hope this enlightens some to the possibilities.

As I learn more about cannabis biology and genetics, I realise I don't want to just throw pollen about willy nilly, so I'm currently on a quest to learn about different techniques and systems for creating stable lines and hybrids.

From reading Vic High's methodology, this looks like a great way for the small grower to improve the way they breed, and ultimately the quality of the hybrids they release, whilst taking into account the space and plant count constraints of a personal sized grow. I'm going to explore the net and see if I can find any more info about RRS. Vic's writings have definately helped me visualise a practical, scaleable method of creating a high quality, stable F1 hybrid.

I'd love to hear about peoples efforts using these or similar methods. I also really want to understand more about how you'd carry on applying this method going forward, to improve the cross? Also how you would use it to ultimately create a stable IBL rather than an F1 hybrid? I also understand you can rapidly speed up this system by flowering out more seeds at once, so I'm also taking that into account looking forward.

Any and all knowledge welcomed. If I've made a blunder with anything I've said feel free to pull me up, I'm only a scholar here.

 

[dreadvik]

Very interesting read! I've saved this one as I imagine it will be what I follow in future

For my current experiment I'm treating both my strains as IBL even tho technically one is a landrace(to me they seem the same as it happens in nature and I trust nature over humans) We could easily create something weak like kids of today but nature generally doesn't or the creation dies out I just wish I got to select my male, and see if I could improve the landrace or attempt to.

What got me thinking in this doc tho is step 3 the open pollination, interested in a breeding pros views of the pros and cons of this at this stage

 

[sackoweed]

I will tag this real quick as i am on my way out the door.. bbl peace..

sack

 

[BENJI]

Nice read Mc snappler some very good tips in that...

 

[Mr. Greengenes]

Sorry, but I can't make any sense of that writing. What does this mean???

"2) If you ever actually decided to open a book and study genetics, you would learn that one does not breed for polygenic low heritable traits such as yield and potency by using the individual plant test cross method. The breeder must select for families of superior plants to ensure a chance of maintaining all the genes that went into making the superior yield, potency, adaptability, or basically overall fitness."

That is the most incomprehensible thing I've ever read. Does this make any sense to anyone?

 

[love?]

I think it says "according to books more plants are better than less".

 

[Mr. Greengenes]

Well then, wouldn't "to avoid detrimentally decreasing the genetic diversity being maintained within a population of plants, seeds should be saved from the greatest number of plants that meet the selection criteria" be a better way to say it?

 

[Farmer John]

Great read, thanks for the link!!!!

 

[tommyboi_420]

Mc snappler, thanks for the link..got it saved on my favs

 

[McSnappler]

Sorry, but I can't make any sense of that writing. What does this mean???

It's true, at times Vic's rantings can be a little, erm, "wordy" in getting to the point. Still found it a very interesting read.

I've had a couple of chats and PM conversations about this thread with more experienced heads, a couple of whom said this technique seems like a waste of time/effort. 3.5 years to achieve a hybrid which would still need further working. Keen to hear more opinion, especially from experienced breeders.

I feel in general there is a severe lack of specific information out there for newcomers to breeding, who would like to go about things the right way. Don't get me wrong, there is lots and lots to be learnt from threads and posts here, for example, using information here I know how to collect pollen, store it, apply it etc - MJ Botany, texts about Mendellian principles etc, have helped me understand genetics, dominant/recessive traits, how traits are passed and so on - but what I don't really have as much comprehension of is the specific 'roadmaps' that breeders might use when working a new line/lines from scratch. I guess that's why I've found Vic Highs method so interesting, because, hey, at least that's what it is, an actual step by step path to achieving something that could be considered a stable hybrid.

 

[Tom Hill]

Is Vic still around? I sure do miss his posts.

Mr.G,

That is Vic's little intro to quantitative genetic theory (biometrical genetics), the thorn in the side of breeders everywhere. Basically he is making the point that many traits of biological and economic importance are very complexly inherited as apposed to under the control of so-called major genes. He is stating that it is rare for complex genotypes to consistently transmit their phenotypic value to their progeny, so best to lay down as many bets as possible or create many families towards the same goal. In the end perhaps one of these families might be successful. That's how I'm reading it anyway. -T

 

[Owl Mirror]

I tried following along in that linked conversation and got lost.

Who can really say what traits any particular plant carries will get translated to it's seeds?
Isn't 'BEST' really dependant upon the individuals POV ?
Another point I have struggled with is, even if a strain is stable for the breeder. Once these seeds get in the hands of another, possibly novice grower. It doesn't mean the environmental factors will be replicated and cause the plant to hold true to it's genetic nature.

 

[Tom Hill]

Hi OM,

Progeny testing reveals which traits are passed on. Yes, "best" is dependent on the individuals point of view. Your third point "adaptability" (also mentioned by Vic above) is a good one and true, but to varying degrees in different lines is the point. A line with high adaptability is one that expresses its desired phenotypes in a wide range of environments.-T

 

[DocLeaf]

RRS ? wtf does that mean?

Please explain these abbreviations before using them Mac buddy!


It all sounds hairy-fairy and a bit long winded to us. What's the actual aim in layman's (growers) terms please? anything new? I n I looking to catch up

Peace n flowers

 

[BENJI]

RRS ? wtf does that mean?

Please explain these abbreviations before using them Mac buddy!


It all sounds hairy-fairy and a bit long winded to us. What's the actual aim in layman's (growers) terms please? anything new? I n I looking to catch up

Peace n flowers

Thats what the link is for Doc but it doesnt explain what RRS stands for in there so who knows...?
http://www.cannabase.com/cl/bcga/breeding/rrs/rrs.html

 

[DocLeaf]

Yo karma crew

ditto: wtf is RRS ,,when it's at home ...?

Is Vic still around? I sure do miss his posts.

Mr.G,

That is Vic's little intro to quantitative genetic theory (biometrical genetics), the thorn in the side of breeders everywhere. Basically he is making the point that many traits of biological and economic importance are very complexly inherited as apposed to under the control of so-called major genes. He is stating that it is rare for complex genotypes to consistently transmit their phenotypic value to their progeny, so best to lay down as many bets as possible or create many families towards the same goal. In the end perhaps one of these families might be successful. That's how I'm reading it anyway. -T

In which case dem need to step up the challenge on dem areas in dem gardens maintaining,,, and step up to the game.

every one's got a theory,, few place it into practise

Yo can all cuzz breeders till ya go blue,, or put out a descent product yourselves,, be a bedroom breeder or pro-grow with first rate stuff.. we nah give a diddle.. just do ya stuff

You read it clearer n sooner than I Tom my man smart cookie peace bless

Word up!

 

[Tom Hill]

reciprocal recurrent selection..

Two populations (say A and B). Selections for A are carried out and driven by its breeding value when using B as a tester, and vice versa. -T

 

[BENJI]

Thanks Tom...

 

[DocLeaf]

reciprocal recurrent selection..

Two populations (say A and B). Selections for A are carried out and driven by it's breeding value when using B as a tester, and vice versa. -T

Sounds heavy for a stoner to remember,, maybe they got str8 folk working on it.. lol

Btw,, wtf does RRS stand for (Please),, i'm lost already ..lol

We thought it was a new type of Road Kill Skunk or something.. hehe

 

[kopite]

Btw,, wtf does RRS stand for (Please),, i'm lost already ..lol

it assumes overdominance

http://www.genetics.org/cgi/content/abstract/84/1/95


here is vic on it

Vic High January 24, 2002 12:44 PM



Here is a simple model that can help explain how someone with as little as a 400watt garden and a flo clone bench could pull off an improved breeding project utilizing a derivative of the RRS concept. This is not a strict blueprint, but just a general model that can be scaled up or down depending on the realities of the seed maker. In this case, I will assume that the clone bench is limited to 30 clones and the flower room limited to 20 flowering plants. Purists will find flaws in the model and and their insight is welcome as it can only add depth. However, I request that any that are not interested in the concept of improved breeding techniques to simple limit their participation to read only status. By all means questions about clarification are welcome, but ignorant attempts to discredit are not. As the starter of this thread, I ask the breeder mod to respect this wish and delete any extra "noise". If this isn't possible because of site policy, I will just remove this post and take it to a more selfish location.

Hope this enlightens some to the possibilities.

*********************************************

Starting with two unrelated inbred lines, A and B.

1) Grow out the A line and select the top 5 males (Am1-5) and top 5 females (Af1-5) to use later:
a) plant a little over twice the seeds your flower room can handle
b) veg seedlings
c) sex the seedlings
d) select females for flower room and repot into final pots
e) take 4 clones of each of these females
f) flower males and females, may be cramped with the males to start, don't worry
g) just before the males explode, remove, grade, select 5 best.
h) prune these 5 males to remove all flowers and return to veg area
i)harvest females, grade, and identify the top 5
j) keep the best two clones that represents each of the 5 selected females, discard the rest

What you finish with is 15 clones and some sinse to enjoy personally or sell if that is your game. Whatever the route, this step has not cost the grower anything but a bit of space in the flo bench.

2) Grow out the B line and select the top 5 males (Bm) and top 5 females (Bf) to use later: Follow the procedure used in step 1 above.

The net result should be another sinse crop and the flow bench contain 30 clones now.

5 Am clones labeled Am1 - Am5
2 sets of 5-Af clones labeled Af1-Af5
5 Bm clones labeled Bm1 - Bm5
2 sets of 5-Bf clones labeled Bf1-Bf5

3) Making the A and the BA seedlines Take the 5 Am and 1 copy of each of the Bf and Af clones and flower them out (15 total) allowing random pollination. You should end up with 10 seedlots divided into two groups of 5, the A group labeled A1-A5 and the BA group labeled BA1-BA5. See figure 1.


4) Making the B and the AB seedlines Take the 5 Bm and 1 copy of each of the Bf and Af clones and flower them out (15 total) allowing random pollination. You should end up with 10 seedlots divided into two groups of 5, the B group labeled B1-B5 and the AB group labeled AB1-AB5. See figure 1.

Be sure to make sure that the end numbers correspond to the same initial female clones. For instance, be sure that AB1 and A1 seedlines are from the same A1 mother. And that the BA1 and B1 seedlines came from the same B1 mother.

The clone bench should be empty now and the breeder should have 5 packs of A seedline, 5 packs of the B seedline, 5 packs of AB seedline and 5 packs of the BA seedline making 20 packs of seed.

5) Grow out and rate the 5 packs of AB seedline. One could do them all at ounce, or divide it up over 6 sinse crops. Nothing wrong with a few sinse crops is there? For this model I will divide the task into the 6 sinse crops.

5a) Grow out as many of the AB1 seeds as your flower room can handle. This usually means planting a little over more than double the number of plants your room can handle and then just selecting the best females for flowering. Make backup clones of each female to be flowered and store them on the flo bench. Now take the number of plants your flowering room can hold (say 20 in this model) and divide this number by 5 and this is the number of keeper plants you want to identify from this crop (say 4). Use a standard score sheet system to score this crop and make notes for future reference if necessary. Identify and select the clones representing these 4 plants and toss the rest. Be sure to label them AB1.

5b-5e) repeat the 5a process for each of the seedlots labeled AB2 to AB5. You have now enjoyed 7 sinse crops and should end up with 20 clones on your clone bench if your flower room can hold 20 plants. There should be 4 of each group, be sure each group is properly labeled from AB1 - AB5.

5f) This is your eighth sinse crop and is where you grow the best of the best of the AB seedline. Randomly arrange these plants in your grow room and then flower them out. Score each plant and use the totals of each group of 4 to score each of the 5 groups. Rank the AB seedlines from best to worst. You can help your decision by referring to the data you also collected in the previous 5 grows. The point is to determine which of the 5 seedlots provided the best OVERALL results, not the best individuals

Your clone bench should be empty again.

6a-6f) repeat the entire process from 5) above, but using the BA1 - BA5 seedlines instead.


7) with reference to steps 5a-5f, use the data data collected to determine your two top A seedlines, lets say that A5 ranked first and A3 ranked second. This means that you can discard seedlots A1, A2 and lot A4. See figure 2.

7a) Grow out as many plants of the A5 seedbatch as you can and select your top 3 males and top 3 females. Maintain clones of these 6 plants on your clone bench, clearly labeled as Af1-Af3 and Am1-Am3.

7b) Grow out as many plants of the A3 seedline and select the best 2 males and best 2 females, clearly labeling them Af4-Af5 and Am4-Am5.

Now be sure to have two copies of each Af clone for a total of 15 clones on the clone bench. Sound familiar?

8) Now repeat the processes in step 7 but with using the data collected in step6 to choose the top two B seedlines.

Now you should have 30 clones on your clone bench representing:

5 Am clones labeled Am1 - Am5
2 sets of 5-Af clones labeled Af1-Af5
5 Bm clones labeled Bm1 - Bm5
2 sets of 5-Bf clones labeled Bf1-Bf5


Repeat the process in steps 3) and 4) so that you once again have seedlines labeled at A, B, AB, and BA.

You have finished the first cycle of the breeding program and ready to start a second. It hasn't been quick but you have enjoyed alot of sinse along the way and the combined AB and BA seedlines represent a superior F1 seed product. Each step of RRS will just keep making it better.

I'm stunned this is the first time some have come across it..

Kopite