Rockwool and Clay Pellets in Ebb & Flow

[ZeroAgain]

Hi, I'm setting up my first grow and I've been reading these forums for a while trying to learn as much as possible. There's a lot of useful info but I'm trying to find some knowledge/wisdom on some things specific to my setup. Any help is greatly appreciated!

Right now I'm trying to figure out how big the containers need to be for a month max of veg. I was wondering if I could veg them for 3-4 weeks and sex them in 4-6" cubes, take out the males and stick the cubed females in clay pellets to flower. Is this possible and would I be able to ebb&flow rockwool alone without clay pellets? I currently have them domed in 1" rockwool cubes, hand watering. I'm basically worried over entangled roots in the pellets and trying not to use 'em till I can take out the males. I figure the watering schedule's different between pellets & rockwool vs. rockwool alone if I can do it.

Setup:
Space: Cabinet that's about 3'x2'x6' (actually 39"x27"x6'4")
Ebb and Flow Tray: 39"x20"x7"deep (a tub I rigged with one of those ebb and flow kits for like $5. Tub fits about 15 gallons)
Res: 18-gallon tub, going to drop the tubes from the tray in one end and try to seal the lid till I cut holes in it for the tubes
Light: 400w MH bulb in a store-bought reflector with glass. I was going to go with an HPS for both cycles but read that MH has a better spectrum for veg (will swap for an HPS for flowering, the ballast I got supports both)

Going to make cuts tomorrow for venting and install some ducting I bought. Still need to buy a 6" fan for the reflector and some fans for venting and exhaust.

I'd love to hear any thoughts on this as well as anything I may be overlooking! Thanks!

 

[HempAlchemist]

welcome and grats on your 1st grow!

"how big the containers need to be for a month max of veg"
quart to half gallon should be fine. i'm assuming your transplanting to 1-2 gal for flower

"I was wondering if I could veg them for 3-4 weeks and sex them in 4-6" cubes"
that should be fine. just put them in some kind of container to keep them from drying out too quick

"Is this possible...to ebb&flow rockwool alone without clay pellets"
from my understanding of rockwool is that it not recommended to ebb+flow but to use top feed. the idea is that because rockwool can hold so much water it will end up getting salt buildup faster. if you were using a top feed there will be a flow of salt away from the roots, slowing this process down. not saying you cant do ebb+flow, just you will need to flush more

sounds like you have done some homework and are building a nice setup.
if you havent started your seeds. the best advice for you is to wait. get your setup built and have a week of dry run-time to make sure you have everything dialed in. #1 mistake for beginners is trying to build there setup around there new grow instead of dialing in then starting to grow.
hope this helps
HA

 

[ZeroAgain]

Thanks for the help!

"just put them in some kind of container to keep them from drying out too quick"
Like 1/2gal planting pots with drain holes, or more along the lines of those net-pots? I figured those netpots were more geared towards dwc style setups. So would my steps basically be 1.) 1" cube -> 4-6" cubes in 1/2gal containers with holes in the ebb&flow tray to veg -> a bed of pellets or 1-2gal containers with pellets in ebb&flow to flower?
Just to make sure I understand, I'll be able to start flowering in 1/2 gals with rockwool alone long enough to tell the males, take 'em out then transfer the ones I want to 1-2gal containers? Or would I need to switch to 1-2 gals before flowering? (Or is this all variable and I just need to react to them?)

"rockwool...not recommended to ebb+flow but to use top feed."
I'm kind of trying to avoid drippers (that's what you mean by top-feed?). I was originally considering them for veg, then ebb&flow for flower, since I could basically use all the same setup (just add a multi-tap dripper to my flood hose?) but I was trying to keep it simple and go with ebb&flow all the way, at least for the first run. Is that a bad idea?

I hadn't considered salt buildups and that's the reason I'm glad I posted (things I didn't consider). So if adding a dripper is easy enough, would it be a safer bet than trying to ebb&flow and have to flush for salts? I wouldn't want to deprive them of nutes, I'm going to try to give them the vendor-recommended amounts of nutrients (but increase them over time 25% -> 50% -> 100%, though I'm not exactly sure when to start or increase them over time, still looking into that) and I figure having to flush due to salts will interrupt nute feedings? How often would I have to flush and for how long to avoid the salts? Or do you just mean flush at the end for a week or two before harvest? I was planning to do that, but was going to look into that in depth further down the line.

"if you havent started your seeds. the best advice for you is to wait."
Whoops! I said in my post that I currently have them domed in 1" rockwool cubes, hand watering. I didn't think it would be a problem since I have plenty of seeds, I figured the batch I have now is a tester. I could throw seeds in a paper towel a few weeks down the road if I need some new ones. I'm using bagseed so I'm not worried about 'em too much.

What things would I be on the lookout for when dry-running? Temps, PH, etc? I figured I should manually run the ebb&flow till I get a feel for how often they're needing water, then time it. I guess that would be better on empty cubes or containers.

Well, off to some more reading. Thanks for the input!

 

[HUGE]

Look up ebb and flo buckets or table. That is what your shooting for. Stick to rocks. They seem to work best in ebb. If you want fancy go coco or perlitemix. Just get a tray and some regular buckets. Or build a bucket multiple system. Roots will get tangled into eachother If not contained

 

[ZeroAgain]

Hi HUGE, thanks for the tips. I'll stick to rocks, not trying to do anything fancy. So I'll definitely be going with containers thanks to your guys' advice and further reading. Once roots start to grow out of the 1" cube, I'm think I should plug that into a 4" cube, place that into a 6" container with rocks surrounding the cube. Once I can tell which ones are keepers, I'll transfer those into larger 1-2gal containers. Would transferring from a 6" container with rocks to a 1-2gal container with rocks be difficult? I saw containers made of coco which I figured could be placed directly into the rocks without transferring, but I wasn't sure if that's really needed. Just wouldn't want the rocks to fall everywhere when transferring.

1 Gal would be a milk jug size container, so does that seem like enough to flower 1-3ft girls? Or would a 2-gal be a safer bet? I don't want them to get too tall.

Was looking around, there's netpots that have mesh on the sides as well as on the bottom, then some with just mesh on the bottom. Would those be suitable for what I'm trying to do, or would enclosed containers with a few holes on the bottom be better?

Found this site on ebb & flow tips:

http://www.angelfire.com/cantina/fourtwenty/articles/eftips.htm

It mentions that if I cover the tops of the pots to prevent evaporation and only water to fill 1/2 up the rocks, I should be able to limit salts building up. Any thoughts on this or that site?

Thanks for all the help!

 

[HUGE]

1" rockwool cube mx and i wouldent even use that. start in rapid rooters. then go into rocks. transplant is tricky. if the plant has been in the pot for enough time that there are roots growing out the bottomthere should be a big enough ball for it to hold togeather.if you transpland before the rootball traps all the rocks you will shock the plants bad.

 

[ZeroAgain]

So if I were to replace using rockwool, would me steps be..

Rapid Rooters -> Those in 4-6" containers with rocks, and once those fill the rocks -> 1-2 gal container with rocks.

The only reason I want to use smaller containers before going to 1-2 gal is to take out the males and (while still in 4-6" containers) then transfer the females I want to 1-2gal containers to fill the space. Though I've read that transplanting after flowering isn't a good idea. Is that true or is that more of a soil-based rule? I figure in hydro with rocks (once the roots hold together) it should be less of a shock on the plants to transplant.

 

[HempAlchemist]

So if I were to replace using rockwool, would me steps be..

Rapid Rooters -> Those in 4-6" containers with rocks, and once those fill the rocks -> 1-2 gal container with rocks.

The only reason I want to use smaller containers before going to 1-2 gal is to take out the males and (while still in 4-6" containers) then transfer the females I want to 1-2gal containers to fill the space. Though I've read that transplanting after flowering isn't a good idea. Is that true or is that more of a soil-based rule? I figure in hydro with rocks (once the roots hold together) it should be less of a shock on the plants to transplant.

if you used the coco containers you wouldnt really need to worry about transplanting. that seems like a good reason to use them till you find your keeper females

 

[ZeroAgain]

I was thinking of going the coco-container route (and #$^*&$!! I should have!) but I've since been to the local supply store and back and only saw 4" coco containers. I compared it to a plastic quart container and it didn't seem big enough for a 3-4 week veg, I was thinking 6" (heh, like I have any experience..) so I'm currently thinking of trying something I wanted to run by you guys.

I got 6x6"(though they seem taller than wider) square plastic containers with holes cut in the bottom (lots of little ones, but not nearly as much as mesh). Also 3 holes almost halfway up the corners, so it seemed right for ebb and flow. I can fit 15 of 'em into the tray I'm using (sorta 3x2, see first post). 12 in a square grid and 3 on the other side of the flood/drain nozzles.

I'm thinking I might try to clone on off the lower branches after a month (possibly month and a half) of veg since I'll be snipping those (around what time are you supposed to snip the lower branches anyways, will look into that). Throw those into a small cabinet with cfl's and handwater 'em in 1" rockwools (in 4" cocos or with rapid rooters in those, still need to look into that too). Put 'em in for 2-3 weeks in veg and then add them to the flowering cab into 6" containers. I'd be starting the flowering for the mothers/fathers a week after snipping them (if that's possible and okay) before the clones are done, so I figure I can just let the clones flower for longer based on how long the mothers take. I could even label the clones so once the mothers/fathers preflower, I can ditch whichever batches of clones I know are males. Since I'd know which clones were female, I could save one in veg to become a mother. Or is it better to have a mother from seed? Doesn't seem like there'd be a difference. This way I'd be able to take out the males and replace 'em with female clones.

So would that work or would I need longer time for the mothers/fathers in veg before snipping & cloning? If this doesn't sound solid, my backup would be to have 15 veg, sex 'em all, weed out the males and just hope more of 'em are female. My original idea was to go with bagseed for the first run for experience, then mother/clone some chosen seeds.

On a side note, still need to look into ordering seeds online. Ordering hydro equipment I can see being a non-issue, but seeds? just paranoid maybe. I read that you only get a note if you're caught, anyone have advice on this? Boy this has turned into a long post. Sorry for the length. Just lots things to consider. One thing I wanted to add is I'm now planning on flowering in the 6" containers. Bad idea? Seems almost as big as a milk jug. I've read smaller containers are okay for hydro since plants don't need to wait for stored nutrients in the soil.

 

[HempAlchemist]

personally i like to wait till i have tertiary growth before i start to clone, but really it doesnt matter. as long as you have enough to work with, you can clone.

"I'm thinking I might try to clone on off the lower branches... Throw those into a small cabinet with cfl's and handwater 'em in 1" rockwools... Put 'em in for 2-3 weeks in veg and then add them to the flowering cab into 6" containers."

this is the best idea. make sure you label all of your clones. flower the clones plants after all have rooted and weed out the males. kill the male originals and wait till you have sampled to find what you want too keep. using the originals as moms allows for the least amount of "genetic drift". using clones as moms is just as good, you just need to let them veg for a while till the get to a good size.

"still need to look into ordering seeds online."
many ppl report good deliveries with the boo. there are a few other companies that have good delivery methods and a quick search will help you find them. as far as brands, personally i have only gotten Nirvana seeds, and for the price i have been very happy.