Red/Purple Stem, Yellowing bottom leaves, brown mark

[inverse]

cotyledon are almost completely yellow and drying up it seems.
the leaf is really dry/tough to the touch.

right now i think i have a magnesium deficiency. although im growing in happy frog/ocean forest, i've been watering them with tapwater which is really hard. when it evaporates it leaves white deposits all over the leaves. i think the excess calcium in the hard water is locking the magnesium out

however, im not sure. judging from that, what do you guys think?

thanks in advance

 

[chubbynugs]

I personally would recommend that you dont water your leaves cause they are lookin real moist and the light could be burnin them lil by lil . Or you might wanna try hittin them up with a veg formula of some sorts. Use only about a quarter of the dose it says to use you dont wanna over feed them at such an early stage of life. GL with your grow.

 

[Dr Pepper]

Im no expert on these plants by any means, but do they get Mg deficiencies at such a young age?

 

[HeadyPete]

What's your ph? I'll bet it's lockout from too high ph from your calcified tap water and you are seeing Nitrogen def with the yellow lower leaves. Mag def starts at the top and has dark green veins. If not locked,than lack of nutes, but that frog/forest combo is pretty strong.

The little spot could be the start of a calcium def.

Get a digi ph meter and some fulvic acid to bring down the ph, assuming this is the problem. You want runoff ph at 6.8.

Good luck. Proper PH is crucial.

 

[floppyfundanglr]

if you havent fed it yet maybe a little nitrogen. Also high temps can do that.

peace

 

[HeadyPete]

DO NOT FEED ANYTHING UNTIL YOU KNOW THE PH, unless you want to kill them good and fast. Flush em out good with plain, ph adjusted water. 6.8 ph is good. Flush it out good, or say bye bye to that seedling. I'll bet they have gotten worse since you first posted this.

Sorry for raising my voice but I am tired of everyone's guess as, "maybe add a little of this, or that" If you do not know what you are doing then please refrain from giving help. You will do more harm than good.

That soil combo has more than enough food (too much for starting seeds, IMO) in it to get that plant to 4 weeks at least. I would not recommend planting seeds in that soil as it is too hot. Plain soil with no ferts added, plus no ferts added for the first 2 weeks, period. Watch the leaf tips for "burning", when the tips go brown and crispy. 1 mm or so of fert burn on the tip is ideal, it means you are feeding maximum dose your plant can handle. Anymore and the plant starts mimicking lack of water and leaves get crispy and blotchy. Technically it is lack of water because the salt concentration in the soil from high fert is higher than salt in the plant and basic chemistry says that water will move from a concentration of low salt to one of higher salt, literally depriving your plant of water and killing it. This is why your lawn burns when you dump too much fert on it in one spot.

If you add more N and the ph is out, the plant cannot use it, it sits and builds up in the soil and burns your plants.

Again, ph is everything and I would bet dollars to doughnuts that yours is way high. What is your runoff ph? If you don't get a handle on it you will never grow a plant successfully.

 

[inverse]

yeah im going to go out and buy a ph tester today. in the meantime, i went to this water store a block away and got a 4 gallon tank of good water, and flushed the plants with that last night. all of my clones and seedlings that were looking a bit under the weather have perked up significantly over night. however, the sick one isnt looking that great. the lower leaves are still yellow and that brown spot has expanded.

also, i bought a soil ph tester last week. could i use that kit to test the water ph? its just a basic test with powder that u mix into water and soil to get the ph value....the ph value of my soil was like 7.1 when i tested last week

 

[master shake]

dude get some distilled water, it's only $.60/gal and pH about 6.5.

 

[floppyfundanglr]

heady pete: i didnt tell him to do anything...just a suggestion as to what his problem might be. Im sick of people not learning themselves from experience and i learned not to check my ph and have no problems. Im not saying this is good for all but i like it.

peace

 

[floppyfundanglr]

Also he never said what his temps are. If you think ph is more important than temperature than i think you could be causing more harm than good. Your gonna have this kid playin with so much ph up and down he doesnt know what to do with it. I dont see how your comments arent similar. Giving advice hmmm.

peace

 

[inverse]

my temps are in the high 70's in the day and high 60's at night

all of my plants are realllllly thriving now haha. even the sick one pictured above has increased its size so much just since last night. the lower leaf still looks pretty much exactly the same but the rest of the plant is growing quite big.


mastershake - i bought a 2 gallon thing of pure distilled water yesterday but it was 8 bucks. i think that was maybe because the plastic jug was included. hopefully to refill it will be as cheap as you mentioned

thanks for the interest dudes!

 

[master shake]

do you live near a walmart? they sell individual jugs for .60

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Also he never said what his temps are. If you think ph is more important than temperature than i think you could be causing more harm than good. Your gonna have this kid playin with so much ph up and down he doesnt know what to do with it. I dont see how your comments arent similar. Giving advice hmmm.

peace

only in the interest of the grower, i have to second HeadyPete with the opinion of his responses. the first and foremost priority in growing is the pH of the medium. think of it as the keys to your car. without it or the wrong key, you are not even able to get in, let alone go anywhere.

if you look at the big, beautiful pictures of the suffering plant, it's clear that most of the leaves show some form of twisting. this is, in most cases than not, a sign that the pH of the medium is too low.
furthermore, notice the intense purpling, almost reddening of the stems. this most likely indicates a phosphorus lockout from low pH.
lastly, if you look at the first set of leaves, there is some spotting which points to the pH being sub-optimal.

i think taking all the clues into consideration, the first step to correcting the situation is to correct the pH.

temperature usually will not cause too big of a problem unless:
1. the medium is too cold, which reduces the mobility and absorption rate of nutrients OR
2. the medium is too hot, causing stress in the rootzone and also disrupting nutrient uptake.

i wish your babies a speedy recovery and a healthy cycle.
best wishes.

 

[inverse]

 

[floppyfundanglr]

I agree there but to hammer people for throwing up some suggestions. After ph had been mentioned. I just think it was a bit hasty even though he apologized. Also i wish i had a ph problem to correct but i continue to ride in the lime* light. dol lime that is and oranics where mother nature takes care of the ph. Oyster shells as well even coffee grounds will buffer the soil to keep that from happening. Thats why i smile everyday.

peace

 

[HeadyPete]

Floppy, I wanted to catch inverse's attention before he followed your advice and added more N and doomed his plants. I did not mean it to be directed at you.

if you havent fed it yet maybe a little nitrogen.

heady pete: i didnt tell him to do anything...just a suggestion as to what his problem might be.

You suggest adding more nitrogen, so ya kinda did tell him to do something and adding nitrogen is not the correct thing to do. From the facts he posted I know happy frog/OF is too hot for seedlings, so I know adding more N would harm the seedlings, even if he hadn't fed them yet. There is more than enough food in the soil already, too much. I wouldn't even put seedlings in that soil. I give advice because it is the correct advice. If I was not sure I would not have posted here. More Nitrogen will lead to nute burn and death. Nothing personal, but proof is in the pudding, and his recovering plants.

Also he never said what his temps are. If you think ph is more important than temperature than i think you could be causing more harm than good. Your gonna have this kid playin with so much ph up and down he doesnt know what to do with it. I dont see how your comments arent similar. Giving advice hmmm.

No one said ph was more or less important than temps. Obviously they are both important to keep in the right zone. It's just that temps had nothing to do with inverse's problems here.

Nobody "plays" with ph up or down if they have a meter and know what they are adding. I don't play with my PH down (fulvic acid), I add the correct amount for proper ph - 6.8 for soil. If you are comfortable not checking ph than great, it is possible to get things right on first time and then no need to change what works, but mastering ph opens a window of information to your plants that all advanced growers utilize (not saying I am a master grower, but trying ) to the fullest. When something goes wrong, and it will, knowing for sure by way of digimeter that your ph is spot on allows you to search for the cause of the problem elsewhere. If your ph is out and you aren't aware of it, then you could be doing the opposite of the correct course of action. Everyone needs to understand it and how to measure and adjust it, for great plant success. Anyway, I just wanted to help, not rag on you. I am sorry, bud. :friends:

Inverse, glad you are on the right track. That damaged leaf will not get better and will die off. No worries. New ones will replace it. When they get going you can mow em with a weedeater and they would come back bushier. Looks like the brown spots were the start of a calcium def from your lockout.

Also careful with the distilled. Some I bought was 5.3 ish in ph, way low for soil. I use my tap water, which is 8.1 and has some calcium and magnesium, after nutes it falls to 7.4 for gro nutes or 6.9 for bloom nutes, some fulvic acid brings it down to a nice 6.4, which ends up at 6.8 as runoff. There is some lime in my coco mix, as well. Some tap water has too much sodium in it to use on your plants. Distilled gets expensive when you are using 4L a day or more. I also bubble off my tap water for 24hrs to release the chlorine out of the water. Chlorine has a ph of 11!

Ph is a logarithmic, not a linear, scale. This means that 7 (neutral), is 10 times more alkaline than 6, and 100 times more alkaline than 5. Plants (and aquarium fish) do not like large swings in ph one way or the other. Gradual change is best.

From the Sick Plant Guide - http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=11688

Ph Problems

One of the first signs of having a slight ph problem is, your plant having part of the leaves kind of twisty, spotty with brown, yellowish, red spots within each other.
Sometimes they don’t have to have all the colors, they could just be spots that have yellowish brown, or just reddish brown and can happen anywhere on the plant. Mainly starts on big fan leaves then goes to little leaves.
When this happens you need to check your soil ph, water ph before and after adding your nutrients. One of the biggest causes is adding nutrients like earth juice; they take the ph down quite a bit. Also can happen when you add bone and blood meal to your soil, that will throw the ph off as well, so it’s smart to test the mix before putting your plants into the mix. After the spots happen you will soon see nutrients being locked out, when that happens DO NOT ADD ANYTHING TO FIX THE PROBLEM UNTILL YOU GET YOUR PH FIXED!! Reason why is, because the plant isn’t absorbing that nutrient, by adding the nutrient it is deficient in, you are causing it to have a build up in the soil therefore can cause that nutrient to become toxic to the plant, because of buildup, to much buildup of certain nutrients will lock out other nutrients. In order to fix the problem you will need to first fix the ph and then if the soil is deficient in nutrients you can add it to fix the problem. A digital PH tester is the best tester to use as they are the most accurate. If you can’t afford a digital ph meter, then your best bet is to get ph testing papers. DO NOT get soil testers, those are the cheapest junk I ever seen and do not give good readings, so you cant rely on one of those. There are a lot of good ph testers out there, one of them is hanna. That is the one I use and is the best money ever spent! Vast majority of problems with soil ph comes from the soil if it has additives like peat moss, which is HILGY acidic..... and or the water you are using, as well as nutrient deficiencies from using the wrong ph for watering. You want to be careful when adjusting your ph, doing this over a week is the best idea, to fast will cause shock to the plant. If you can’t get a hold of a ph tester or ph test papers. If you have some dolomite lime, its always better to use it in soil rather than every time you water, imo and from others (Uncle Ben) That it really doesn’t stabilize as many people think it does, Soil pH and micronutrient availability are interrelated. Don’t Use to much lime to decrease the soil pH to a point where micronutrients can't be unavailable to plants. The micronutrients affected by pH include iron, manganese, zinc and, not as often copper. The problems when you apply to much lime can make it harder to correct your ph than what you would have when you didn’t add as much lime. You can always add more lime, but if you add to much you can’t remove it if you put to much lime in the soil. With great soil moisture, lime will work immediately and pH will start to change over a few months. However, it can take up to a year for the real benefit of lime to work. As the soil pH rises, the time it takes for lime to react decreases due to lower levels of soil acids. If you need to change your ph when its to high, if you choose to use lime it will not help as much as you think in lowering your ph, it would need alot of lime to lower your ph to a point where it would cause a toxcicity to the plants so look else where to use something to lower your ph rather than using lime.

So here at the bottom is a list of some buffers that are good to go with when raising and lowering ph!

Here are some ph buffers when your ph is too high: Use these SOIL PH Adjustments to lower your ph: sawdust, composted leaves, wood chips, cottonseed meal, leaf mold and peat moss. Sawdust, composted leaves, woodchips and, lemon juice, PH DOWN.

Hydro PH Adjustments: PH Down (vinegar and lemon juices are good for soil, but not recommended for hydro use) Phosphoric acid during flowering and Nitric acid for vegtative growth.Thanks goes out to syko2 for that one! (Only quality PH buffers should be used to adjust ph and be sure the buffer and nutrient work's well together.)

Here are some that will raise the ph: use these SOIL Adjustments when your ph is to low: PH UP, dolomite lime, hardwood ash, bone meal, crushed marble, or crushed oyster shells, potassium hydroxide <--- Thank you Uncle Ben!

Hydro Adjustments: PH UP,lime,potassium hydroxide and potassium sillicate .(Only quality PH buffers should be used to adjust ph and be sure the buffer and nutrient work's well together.)


Here are a few pictures of ph spotting before nutrient lockout occurs. The last pic is shown is high ph with the twisty leaves. Note the edges are brown, this is a potassium deficiency that is caused by ph lockout.(Sometimes this gets confused with a nitrogen toxicity, so always keep your ph in check and test it often!)

A Milwaukee PH40 digi tester is $70, alot for some, but don't think you have to drop 2 bills on an expensive one.

The way to test and adjust ph is like this (i'll use my actual numbers for an example):

1. Know the ph of your soil. Flush pot with ph adjusted 7.0 (neutral) water, then test the runoff ph. Don't be stingy with the water. (my coco soil is 7.1)

2. Test plain water ph. Mix all your nutes and measure this ph. (my water is 8.0, nutes bring down to 7.2 (gro) and 6.9 (bloom).

3. Now I want my ph to be 6.8, with lower better than higher, so I use fulvic acid as a ph down (it has so many benefits beyond ph adjustment) and add it to bring the ph down to the point where it balances the higher soil ph.

My soil is 7.1, so I bring my nutewater ph to 6.5, which lowers the soil to 6.8. There a 3 ph points between 6.5 and 6.8, and 3 points between 6.8 and 7.1 If your soil is higher, then your nutes need to be lower to hit that 6.8 sweet spot. Measure your runoff to confirm. After you get a routine down and learn your methods, you can test less regularly, or if there are issues.

It doesn't matter what your water ph is to start with, the final nute ph and soil ph will determine whether you add up or down. If your water ph is high and your nutes are acidic, as many organic nutes are, then you will probably use down, assuming your soil is high. If you use low ph distilled and acidic nutes, you will be using up. Don't get too confused by this now, it will be clear once you start doing it.

One last thing. Easy on the ferts. After a week or two with just ph adjusted water, start with half the recommend dose for awhile, then see how they respond to more. The key is to look for a slight "tip burn", browning of just a millimeter or two of the tips, and good growth, and that will be the optimum feed. Remeber, less is more. If you see the lower leaves starting to turn yellow, you are starting Nitrogen deficiency and it is time to feed. The amount of light (total watts, type, etc) will also factor in to how much they eat. More light more food. The hotter the temps, the less food they need.

Take it easy and I am looking forward to some updates. Post as much details as you can, like what ferts, lighting, cab or room etc whatever you feel comfortable with. Peeps will help you out along the way.

 

[inverse]

wooooooooooooow, much appreciation for the time you put into that post. thanks for making this simple and easy to understand for a first time grower! haha

 

[inverse]

i bought a 40 buck digital tester today. it showed that my hard water here has a ph of 7.65, the water that isnt hard which i planned to use from my girlfriend's house has a ph of 7.83, and that the water i just bought from the water place for 25 cents a gallon has a ph of 8.45 :O. so i put just the smallest amount of lime juice into the 2 gallon jug and it shot my ph down to 5 haha =/. so im out 50 cents now since i dont have any of the ph up remedies. whatever, this has been a valuable learning experience

edit: i refilled at the same place just now and came back with PERFECT 7.0 WATER.. hmmmm

 

[HeadyPete]

Fill that low water you bought with enough higher ph tap water to bring it up!

Your 50 cents is NOT wasted!

Lime juice is very unstable and not ideal. If you can, get fulvic acid, use that for down. A good legit garden or organic garden centre should carry this, may not have to go to a gro store. It has many beneficial properties besides lowering ph. Mostly it improves the plant's ability to take in available nutes, which means more growth, bigger budz, better resin production, more potency, better flavour and aroma etc.

Cheers.