Reading list

[Microbeman]

I don't have much time; Got construction workers showing up this AM. Coot & CT Guy, that is very well said. Jeff's book is not perfect (I've made some corrections to him, accepted graciously) but it is perhaps the best contemporary introduction, on the market broadly, to the microbial (the only) aspect of organic growing. Jeff is my friend and he accepts when I take a stance different from his. It was not always this way on the forum but once he understood that I know some stuff, his tune changed. At that point he never interfered if I contradicted a post by Elaine so long as I was not insulting. I did not like that she was allowed to be insulting but CT Guy has explained that well enough.

Spurr, I was not privy to your posts which were blocked and I don't agree with it but perhaps things may have evolved over time as they did with me.

I do not like what is happening at SFI and I think it is a shame that many feel they need to test there to legitimize their products. I do see a big collapse of confidence in SFI coming, once more people realize the collusions going on. It seems that if you spend lots of money at SFI/Earthfort you get good test results. I hope I'm wrong. Some will know that I found a large problem with their testing process a few years back. I have a customer with one of my brewers who is a commercial ACT applicator. He had a client who wanted to see a good SFI test. I told him how to tweak the test so as to get good results by doing a short brew and let the bacteria multiply and fungi grow during shipment and the flagellates and amoebae would excyst and multiply in the SFI culture plates. It worked perfectly but had he applied that ACT it would not have been ready.

 

[spurr]

Hey guys!

CTGuy, good post, that is pretty much what I thought your take on the topic was. I have some poor personality traits such as I am very far from a diplomat, I would rather burn a bridge than allow an untruth from an expert to go un-called-out (ex. I just tore into Jorge Cervantes about much wrong info in his book/s).

I guess I just expect everyone to act in an altruistic manner all time and set a very high bar for themselves regardless of the finical incentive to do otherwise. I am not talking about you, like I wrote, I think you do act in an altruistic manner, I have a very high opinion of you; I am talking about Elaine, Jeff, et al. I really dislike money as a main motivation for teaching and for research, they make very poor bedfellows. I guess I am purist and it helps that I don't rely upon anything from Dr. E to make money. I see what you mean in that Jeff, yourself, etc., need to tread lightly about Dr. E...

It's mostly Dr. E that I have deep disrespect for, I only slightly disrespect Jeff (I have never had interaction with Wayne) because to me Jeff is a sellout from how he acts on his yahoo group. YMMV. And the fact he relies much upon Dr. E for info in his book (re: compost, bacterial dominate vs. fungal dominate, etc.) bothers me; people reading his book (who don't know any better) think the way he describes making compost is ideal and yet it's far from ideal, he doesn't talk about C:N ratios, moisture content, etc., etc. His and Dr. E. prescribed method to make compost is what I term 'ACT compost', not real humus rich thermal compost (e..g Luebke compost).

RE: Jeff and his book

I agree 100% his book is great, not in terms of academic perfection, but in terms of being an amazing book for the basics in an easy to read and understand format. While I have a few bones to pick with his book, my issues with this book do nothing to detract from the huge values his book offers. My issues are minor in scope and don't effect the overall goodness of the book. My issues with his book would fall under the 'perfectionism' fallacy which I tend to fall victim to (i.e. if it's not perfect it's not worth doing). The only gripe I have with his book that I think is very valid is his lack of referencing claims made that are not common knowledge, I think he should have gone the extra mile and properly referenced info.

yrs, spurr

(CC, now that Matt Raize's thread is locked I will make a new thread for a few posts where ppl asked me questions, like yours about minerals. I avoided posting in his thread due to the fact it was far too long and was become a bitch fest.)

 

[Clackamas Coot]

(CC, now that Matt Raize's thread is locked I will make a new thread for a few posts where ppl asked me questions, like yours about minerals. I avoided posting in his thread due to the fact it was far too long and was become a bitch fest.)

I should apologize for my unnecessary posts on that thread - it was pointless.

RE: EarthFort

Several months back an organic farm down in the Willamette Valley began to sell their thermal compost under the 'Marwest' label. It's available at the organic farm stores for $8.00 for 1.5 c.f. or $5.34 per 1 c.f. - an amazing price for the quality. Then about 6 months ago they began to sell their EWC under their new name 'GroundUp' and I had the opportunity to visit their farm and we discussed their products being used to make to a high-end potting soil.

The farm is 300 acres a few miles east of Salem in one of the most beautiful farm areas in Oregon. They're doing everything by the book - the owner didn't hit the lottery but almost as good - he was in on the ground floor of Yahoo in the 1990's when they went public. Big money and this gentleman spent some of the money wisely.

Now EarthFort/SFI are working so the compost and EWC will be distributed by them exclusively. Currently EarthFort sells 2 humus products - Denali Gold (they used to sell it under the name 'Alaska Humus') and Cascade Compost which is from a small operation down in Klamath Falls, Oregon.

Both of these products cost $22.00 FOB at their office in Corvallis, Oregon. The chances that EarthFort will continue with the pricing currently available once they've yanked the product from the farm stores is somewhere between nil and none. I expect that the price on the former 'Marwest Compost' will increase by a minimum of 300% assuming that they stick with the 1.5 c.f. size.

Then there's the deal with the seaweed extract at EarthFort. KIS sells seaweed extract for under $15.00 per lb. That's less than the 1 lb. price from one farm store and the other store has a 3 lb. minimum for $36.00 - so basically the soluble seaweed extracts run between $12.00 - $16.50 per lb.

EarthFort sells the exact same seaweed extract for $27.00 per lb.

And then there's the fish hydrolysate product that they now sell. Last year they were carrying Organic Gem which is a very high-end product. And the pricing was almost inline with the online retailers for this product.

Now they have their own fish hydrolysate and the price is almost double of the former product/price. That wouldn't be too bad if this product walked on water - it's out of a packer in Anacortes, Washington that process the fish into hydrolysate and packs for at least 6 companies that I'm aware.

That's not a bad thing necessarily but if you were to buy Down-To-Earth's Fish & Kelp Liquid you'll be buying the very same fish product and the 'kelp' in their product is the same seaweed extract from Nova Scotia.

Good racket.

CC

 

[Albertine]

Oh, say it aint so, CC! How much longer before it gets locked up?

What are the test results on the Yelm and 4 Corners castings? Are there any other options for viable ewc/compost after this happens?

 

[CT Guy]

Oh, say it aint so, CC! How much longer before it gets locked up?

What are the test results on the Yelm and 4 Corners castings? Are there any other options for viable ewc/compost after this happens?

Depends on what you're looking to use the material for. Are you trying to make a tea or use it as part of your soil mix? How much material are we talking about?

 

[spurr]

FWIW, here is a good book:

"Handbook of Microbial Biofertilizers"
Mahendra Rai (Editor)
Psychology Press, 2006


Read some of it for free at Google Books:
http://books.google.com/books?id=xE...ook_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBsQ6AEwAA


Buy it at Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/Handbook-Microbial-Biofertilizers-Mahendra-Rai/dp/1560222697

 

[Albertine]

I just picked up my first bags of Marwest products and now they are getting corporatized, bummer.

CT Guy, I've been doing both, although I don't have a microscope, so the tea aspect I am taking on faith and the idea that if you can at least get something going in a hospitable environment, the numbers will grow. I like the idea of using the most active ingredients available, though and following CC's recommendations for local material. Your kelp is up for the next bag.

 

[guest2012y]

I just picked up my first bags of Marwest products and now they are getting corporatized, bummer.

CT Guy, I've been doing both, although I don't have a microscope, so the tea aspect I am taking on faith and the idea that if you can at least get something going in a hospitable environment, the numbers will grow. I like the idea of using the most active ingredients available, though and following CC's recommendations for local material. Your kelp is up for the next bag.

I don't know if that's good or bad...all I know is that's the best damned compost $$$ can buy...should I roll up and get as much as possible before it turns to shit or what?
EDIT: BTW...I purchased a bag of kelp meal extract from Yelm's.....I suppose it's the same stuff eh? Should last me an eternity.

 

[spurr]

For those who want to use Luebke compost contact "MidWest Biosystems", there are a few other producers of Luebke compost, but MidWest is well thought of, and often has stock on hand.

I agree with MM and others, that homemade and fresh vermicompost is a great source of compost teas, better then compost I have ever purchased commercially. MM has stated his indoor vermicompost bins produce high quality ACT. I believe an outdoor vermicompost pile might be better than indoor, but I trust MM way more than myself on the optic of verimcompost/vermiculture.

MM, please correct me if I did not represent your feelings/claims correctly, thanks!

 

[guest2012y]

My only problem is that I don't consume enough matter or have the by-product of enough matter to continually generate the material necessary to make the amount of HIGH quality compost I NEED. I compost..it's just not enough.... so I have to buy it. I utilize all I consume....except electricity...which gets used to the full extent as possible..sorry off topic.

hey anybody read High Times.....uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh der duh uhhh ask Ed Oh wait there's a new guy now.

 

[DARC MIND]

capt
why dont u start a worm bin?
news/junk/office paper and coffe grounds are almost endless to most. then thers the garden,grow,fall leaves and ur own/family waste...
im sure a few worm bins could be used to ur advantage,thats if u havent got a few going all ready

 

[spurr]

My only problem is that I don't consume enough matter or have the by-product of enough matter to continually generate the material necessary to make the amount of HIGH quality compost I NEED. I compost..it's just not enough.... so I have to buy it. I utilize all I consume....except electricity...which gets used to the full extent as possible..sorry off topic.

Hola,

My post about Luebke compost wasn't directed toward you, I was just providing as source for good compos that is reasonable priced, but shipping is a PITA. I hope my post didn't bother you, sorry if it did. I wasn't trying to diss the use of compost for ACT.

 

[Microbeman]

For those who want to use Luebke compost contact "MidWest Biosystems", there are a few other producers of Luebke compost, but MidWest is well thought of, and often has stock on hand.

I agree with MM and others, that homemade and fresh vermicompost is a great source of compost teas, better then compost I have ever purchased commercially. MM has stated his indoor vermicompost bins produce high quality ACT. I believe an outdoor vermicompost pile might be better than indoor, but I trust MM way more than myself on the optic of verimcompost/vermiculture.

MM, please correct me if I did not represent your feelings/claims correctly, thanks!

There could be benefits to a vermicompost pile outdoors. My big pile is now virtually outside as it is in a shed with an open face. Since I moved to the coast I don't need to worry so much about freezing temperatures. If I had no roof over it moisture regulation could be problematic. My big pile is still suffering from my move to the new location. I've had to pay so much attention renovating my new home that I've really slipped in other areas.

I bought a soil/compost mix yesterday for the first time in ages for spreading around the yard and planting trees. I checked out their method (over the phone) and looked at a sample at a retailer. The sample looked and smelled good. They said they get mushroom compost and let it sit for 6 months, then mix it with thermophilic compost, aged wood fines and 30% sand. I got 40 yards delivered. It smells of mushroom compost. I hate it when people lie.

 

[guest2012y]

DARC...I need to get into a more permanent space before taking on more life forms than I already have. Soon...soon my friend.

spurr...I was just openly whining about not being able to make enough compost for my needs. I sort of have a complex about having to buy it. I understood that you provided a source...Thanks for for the suggestion,I'll look into that and see if it's something to consider if Marwest goes to shit. When I move will take my soil and compost with me.....

 

[Clackamas Coot]

Mrs. Coot and I bought a Kindle device as well as an Apple iPad. We buy a lot of books and having them in an electronic form has a lot of advantages over printed tomes.

But where the Apple iPad really shines is the ability of the Mac OS to create PDF files on the fly.

Take the Leubke Compost site that spurr linked to. It's a pretty lengthy article which requires a fair amount of scrolling. Because of an underlying technology used in the Mac OS (specifically the Postscript language which is a vector application and is the parent technology behind Adobe Acrobat), you can print any document, web page, et al. as a PDF which results in it being turned into a book form, i.e. it has pages and not a single long document.

Upload that to the Apple iPad and you now have a booklet form of the article. In the case of MM's web site I was able to print out the page and by tweaking the initial print command, the videos at this site are now embedded into the PDF document and perform like they do when you hit his page with a web browser. You simply click on the video and it plays - all within the PDF document.

The Gutenberg Project is the oldest digital repository of books, essays, papers and was established in early 1970's. Worth checking out. I found an 'indoor gardening' book from the 1870's from England - seems they were having problems with red spider mites and PM then. Some things are eternal I guess.

CC

 

[Stankie]

The info in the CT group never impressed me, but some people did, like MM, you, Steve Diver, etc.

I agree with this wholeheartedly!! There are a few knowledgeable contributors and the occasional thread on there that contains lots of info. But for me, sites like this one hold a lot more info!


To all who spread their knowledge

 

[3rdEye]

Thank you very much for getting this thread started scrappy.

Thank you to all the contributors. I'm working my way through the reading list now.

 

[spurr]

I bought a soil/compost mix yesterday for the first time in ages for spreading around the yard and planting trees. I checked out their method (over the phone) and looked at a sample at a retailer. The sample looked and smelled good. They said they get mushroom compost and let it sit for 6 months, then mix it with thermophilic compost, aged wood fines and 30% sand. I got 40 yards delivered. It smells of mushroom compost. I hate it when people lie.

Damn that sucks, I hate it too. Did they tell you how they make their mushroom compost (re: if they use lots of synthetic ferts)?

I dislike using spent mushroom compost for horticulture considering to sell spent mushroom compost it generally has to be pasteurized (steam treated) or salted (with high levels of sodium) to kill potential problem fungi and other pets. And because steam pasteurization is often more costly than sodium treatment, many sources of spent mushroom compost use sodium instead of heat; then they let it sit for many months to reduce the sodium level (and level of other ions).

Freshly spent mushroom compost itself is high in salts (ions) due to the process of making mushroom compost, and that is why it needs to be left to sit for many months, otherwise it can hurt plant roots. Also, freshly spent mushroom compost generally has a high levels of fungal metabolites (from cultivation of the mycelium and fruit bodies) that are acidic and not helpful to plants roots.

I am sure you know this, but because this is the reading thread I figure I'll post this info:

The process for making mushroom compost is not the same as making thermal compost. I am hesitant to use spent mushroom compost due to the high level of synthetic fertilizers used to make most mushroom compost. Generally mushroom compost is called "synthetic mushroom compost" when it is made without horse manure, e.g., a mix of straw, chicken manure and gypsum. Most mushroom compost produced today uses horse manure, straw, gypsum, urea and/or ammonium sulfate, super phosphate and muriate of potash or sulfate of potash. Even though most mushroom compost has high levels of synthetic ferts it's not termed synthetic compost unless it lacks horse manure (as a general rule). Some compost makers also include items like cottonseed meal, soybean meal, spent brewers grains, chicken manure, s.peat moss, etc.

The gypsum adds Ca and S, it's used to keep volatile ammonia from escaping the compost en mass, thus increasing nitrogen reclamation and reducing the stink of phase I mushroom compost as the microbes break down the urea and/or ammonium and/or chicken manure (i.e. ammonification). Mushroom compost (esp. phase I) can stink to the high heavens, so gypsum is added to lock the ammonia (via. the Ca in gypsum) from escaping. Some governmental/regulation bodies demand the addition of gypsum to prevent the smell. The S from the gypsum helps keep compost pH from getting too high, i.e. > 8 (ex. sodic soil/compost). The Ca from gypsum not only locks in volatile ammonia (thus decreasing N losses and increasing N reclamation), but the Ca also increases flocculation of compost.

I think vermicompost or good thermal compost (ideally Luebke compost) are much better than spent mushroom compost for horticultural applications; esp. when used as microbial sources. I have never been happy with the spent mushroom compost I have purchased.


Here are some good reads on the topic of production of mushroom compost (phase I and II, etc.) and studies/assays on spent mushroom compost:

1a. Penn State: "Mushroom Science and Technology"
http://mushroomspawn.cas.psu.edu/mushroom.shtml


1b. Penn State: "Mushroom Science and Technology > Mushroom Substrate for White Button Mushrooms"
http://mushroomspawn.cas.psu.edu/Substrate.shtml


1c. Penn State: "Mushroom Science and Technology > Mushroom Substrate for White Button Mushrooms > Mushroom Substrate Preparation for White Button Mushroom"
http://mushroomspawn.cas.psu.edu/Preparation.shtml


1d. Penn State: "Mushroom Science and Technology > Mushroom Substrate for White Button Mushrooms > Managing Microbial Activity During Phase II Composting"
http://mushroomspawn.cas.psu.edu/PhaseII.shtml


1e. Penn State: "Mushroom Science and Technology > Mushroom Substrate for White Button Mushrooms > Spent Mushroom Substrate"
(both fresh and aged)
http://mushroomspawn.cas.psu.edu/Spent.shtml


2. Penn State: "Mushroom Science and Technology > Information"
http://mushroomspawn.cas.psu.edu/Information.shtml


3. Penn State Publications: Mushroom Topics
http://pubs.cas.psu.edu/PubSubject.asp?varSubject=Mushrooms


4. "Growing Mushrooms on Compost"
http://www.angelfire.com/co/mycosociety/cult3.html


5. "Plant Nutrients and Fresh Mushroom Compost"
(note this is about freshly spent mushroom compost, not aged spent mushroom compost)
http://www.mushroomcompost.org/NPK2.pdf


6. Orgeon State Univitsy: "Garden Hints > Mushroom compost--use carefully"
http://extension.oregonstate.edu/news/story.php?S_No=28&storyType=garden


7. "Compost preparation technology Mushroom growing"
http://agaricus.ru/en/doc/show/315/
​

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Last year I started making organic mushroom compost (without synthetic fertilizers or chicken manure) to sell to some local mushroom growers, and they found it worked as well as the normal kind of non-organic mushroom compost (either with or without horse manure) to grow button muhsrooms (Agaricus Bisporus) and shrooms (P.cubensis). I tweaked the C:N ratio, and used other inputs to increase the N, P and Ca levels for the finished compost, which as a goal should be about: C:N ratio < 15:1, 2-2.5% for N, 0.5-1% for P, 1-2% for K, 1-2% for Ca and < 0.5% for Mg.

I use aluminosilicate zeolite ("zar-min") powder in place of gypsum when making mushroom compost to reduce volatile N loss as gaseous ammonia. The CEC of the zeolite does a better job of locking down the volatile ammonia than does the Ca from gypsum; but I also add calcitic lime for Ca which increases flocculation of compost. I also use both of those minerals in my version of Luebke compost to increase N reclamation, humus content (thanks to the CEC and clay content of zeolite and Ca of calcitic lime) and compost flocculation. After speaking with George Leidig a few times I am sold on not using clay-loam and instead using zeolite for Luebke compost. George has used bentonite clay powder (from a kitty litter production plant) in place of clay-loam at ~10% (IIRC) and his Luebke compost had the highest Luebke humus score he has ever seen, 100 I think. The bentonite clay powder has a good level of CEC, but it's much less than the CEC found in micronzied zeolite powder.

 

[3rdEye]

Thanks spurr for the breakdown on the mushroom compost. That is an arena that i need to revisit again.

 

[spurr]

NP