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Questions for Sam the Skunkman on Hindu Kush Indicas

G

Guest

wish some "breeders" would spend more time and resources collecting genetics from traditional Cannabis areas

I'm not a breeder but in the last 12 months, the three all-round best and most interesting plants I;ve grown and smoked were a Mexican I grew from seed I collected from brick weed in Cancun in 2005, a Jamaican that AFOAF grew from seed picked from exceptional bud his family in Jamaica gave him and the Purple Afghan that was picked in Afghanistan by AFOAF in the British Army.

When you consider I've had stuff like Trainwreck, OG Kush, Cheese, Sour Diesel and Chemdawg D x Nigerian Silk in my garden recently, it's saying something that I've got more interesting plants from unusual and exotic sources.

So imagine what other rare beauties are waiting out there in seed form? Ngakpa has been in Pakistan/India recently and has colelcted several cultivars that have potential to be fantastic, when redrider was in Colombia last year he found all kinds of wonderful sativas. There is far too much emphasis on names and one-up-man ship over elite clones, too much of this 'I have cut X and no-one else but my homies will ever have her!' crap these days.

I imagine if someone who spends a lot of money annually on expensive seeds saved that moeny and spent it to go somewhere to collect genes then they would find some special palnts from those seeds, it;s all about selection and actually bothering to pop the seeds and have the patience to see what they produce. Far too many folks are lazy and want fast turnaround of clones and just want the big name 'elite' clone lines so they can look like they are connected to serious people when they post pics of their rare cut on the internet.

And what if one of the big seed producers decided, instead of just cashing in on big names by producing femmed beans from cuts (yes, I mean Arjan!) to invest some of the wads of cash he spends every month on advertising to send people to far flung corners of the globe to find rare, new and useful varieties? Franco told me (and I think Sam was stood about 5 feet to my left when he said it) at the last 420 Cup, underground in the Expo that he was leaving Holland in a few days to go back to the Transkei where he was searching for really special varieties and said he had found some really rare stuff that was unrelated to the Durbans and Swazi we think of when we think of South African weed.

The world really doesn't need anymore feminised beans from elite cuts or hybrids of big nam varieties to proven things like Skunk, just look at the seeds that are sold today, they represent an awfulyl small genepool whereas the cannabis genepool as a whole is massive. It might have got smaller opver the years due to the efforts of governments, but it's still big enough for us all to explore it more fully and find new and interestign plants. The way things are now it'e like a huge swimming pool where everyone is stood together in the shallow end and only the most adventurous venture into deeper water. Stop paddling around and go for a bloody swim! I know it's not possible to go and live in Afghanistan like Sam did but it's not that hard to travel to somewhere that's pretty safe that also has indigenous cannabis.

I colelcted a load of seeds from wild plants in the Poltava region of Moravia in the eastern part of the Czech Republic last year, they are a ruderalis type but grow to 5 or 6 feet and we rubbed some of them to make finger hash and it was moderately potent, the dried wild buds were a mixed bunch, some actually got you high while some just made you feel lethargic and tired. This indicates that this wild line has not been selected in any way for THC production and has indiciduals that produce lots of tHC and little CBD and individuals that produce lots of CBD but little THC. Sam has said that plants that produce lots of CBD are not to be found in any of the commerically available varieties, they have been bred to produce only THC, it's to do with the bd/bt alleles.

The other day a caregiver who has a very ill relative asked me if I knew where he could obtain a variety that produced CBD as he needed such a plant to treat his relative's ailment. Luckily, I have these Moravian wild seeds I collected, so I was delighted to share them with him. The moral of that little story is, useful new varieties of cannabis are out there, it's high time some folks went and collected them to find out what we might be missing out on. I'm sure Sam is one of the very few people on the planet who actually has some experience of a fair portion of the genepool, but even he hasn't grown nor smoked every type of cannabis, that is too much for one lifetime for any man. Yet so much of the modern cannabis we grow and consume today contains a fair portion of genes from lines Sam released. Sam's lines represent only a tiny fraction of the varieties he collected and he only collected a fraction of what's out there.
 

IBsmokin

Member
hey I got some of sams original Hindu Kush, they are not the exact same beans we scored in the 80's, but they are decendants and are pure! we never hydridized the beans only picked the best males and females to breed to keep our stock.

man I think i got like F16's by now, every beans grows exactly the same as if they were clones.

they are exactly the same as they were in the 80's. always finish outdoors here in Nova Scotia by mid september.

we usually breed the Hindu Kush one summer every two years, always outdoors. all just to keep our seed stock for ourselves and our family and close personal friends.

this summer is time to breed again,
I think I got like 50 beans left.
 
J

jimbroker

Sam I have a few more questions. It seems that the Hindu Kush region indicas and indicas in general are synonymous with Skunk for a lot of people. Did you backcross your Hindu Kush Indica with Skunk #1 like you did with a few hazes that are available through seedbay?

I also noticed that the other seed companies you mention (TFD and Seedsman) say they have the Hindu Kush indica as a cross with Skunk #1. Is the purest thing I am going to be able to get going to be a cross with Skunk as that is what you gave to the other seed companies and growers?

It seems like the closest I can get to the original hindu kush indica is something that has been crossed with Skunk.
 
B

Bluebeard

I just noticed that seedsdirect has some of the positronics pure hindu kush from when positronics briefly got back in the seed business after a long hiatus. Positronics was the second dutch seed company to start selling seeds derived from Sam's stock, and is the source for Tom Hill's original haze which as far as I know is the only Dutch derived pure haze line which produces purple phenos, not to be confused with positronics other line named "purple haze" which was an indica cross. They also have positronics "old ed" which is a line derived from Old Ed's stock, an old skunk line crossed to a chitral. Old Ed, not to be confused with Ed Rosenthal, was another American, who founded Lowlands Seed Company, and along with Sam, brought lots of seeds to Holland in the late 70's and early 80's.

Since the seeds are probably pretty old so I cannot speak about germination rates but it's worth a shot if you want the closest Hindu Kush to what was brought to Holland in 1984. Wernard who is the owner and founder of positronics is a really good guy, one of the few honest people in the industry.
 
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mofeta

Member
Veteran
This is what Reeferman has to say on this subject:

The seeds I use for the mazar came from a friend of Sams who has maintained them since the early days in holland , Sam did not directly give me the genetics as I stated they came from skunkmans seed line , I have grown many many of the different variations and have smoked the kush from the famous clone these are the closest to the origional line avalable and I was told clearly that this line has not been comercially exploited .
As far as the skunk #3 sam told me to locate skunk #3 as it was the road kill pheno(to get the road kill odor we obtained it from 3 sources and bred it to purple skunk to make double skunk) , he did not directly give me the genetics I was very fortunate to have a friend who worked with sam since the very begining I was able to obtain a number of the early strains that had been maintained for years .
In my 2 years in Holland I went about picking the brain of the great pioneers and collecting everything that was recomended the irony was that it was not in holland where many of the great varieties ended up being .
I assure everyone that if they grow my mazr offering next to any of the versions mentioned they will be vastly different and superior .
I have nothing but the highest respect for skunkman and his work I am sure he knows exactly how I obtained these strains and from whom.
I am sorry if this causes any troubles I am simply trying to give credit where credit is due on the origens of these genetics unlike others who would just change the name .
I have never said the african black was from Sam I have had that strain for many years prior to meeting sam .
I have simply tried to be acurate and honest about the origen of my genetics I do travel around the world collecting authentic landraces , the only outside source I have used is skunkmans becouse I have no dought about there origens .

Reeferman
 

mofeta

Member
Veteran
More from Reeferman:

Its funny how this issue comes up here I was in conversation with skunkman one day we were talking about how many breeders used his genetics and never gave him credit for it , I assured him that if I used his genetics that I would always offer credit .

Its sad how some folks need to find fault with the most minor detail of issues if the questioned were put forth in a kind way one that saught the information it would be ok but the way certain people run with assumptions and public attack is a little much .

The collection of seeds I have are authentic early works from skunkmans stock , they were not bred with comercial interests I grew out a huge population of the mazar seed line looking for the plants that were most like the clone , we selected about 50 females and 12-15 males we also introduced 20 exceptional haze ladies from another feild that is where the hindu kush x haze was bred from the seeds used for the parent line were those 50 exceptional females that we tagged with ribbon .

We grew out a number of the mazar ladies and found that the trait we selected and tagged for bred true in about 95% ratio.

Reef
 
G

Guest

just noticed that seedsdirect has some of the positronics pure hindu kush

I just checked the old seedsdirect URL and a new shop is there, doesn't look like it's a real shop to me as they list African Seeds strains for sale and they are long gone.

I would like some official word on whether this new shop is anything to do with Gypsy, seedbay and seedboutique.
 
J

jimbroker

Mofeta: Thanks for the cross post from the reefer world forums from Reeferman. I appreciate it. It seems like Reef did some work on his own with his Mazar line.
 
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Farmer John

Old and in the way.
Veteran
Dont know but Reef had a nice example of kush back in 2006 that we smoked with peter and gaius and who ever was there at 420. Been planning for a while to travel east to collect seeds, now that I dont have a job anymore. And finally have enough time to go thru those wild kashmir seeds, should be interesting. Do you still have SK#1 for sale somehere Sam? I'd love to get my hands on that again, lost all the freebies I collected from idiots who didnt want to grow them.
 

Londinium

Well-known member
ICMag Donor
Veteran
Sam does this look right to u?

Sam does this look right to u?

Hello Sam Skunkman I hope u r well? Firstly..Thanks for making it possible for us to be able to grow great weed in Europe,you are a true Innovator! Skunk1 is a truly amazing plant.
Anyhoo I wanted to bring something to your attention these 2 descriptions (The first is from a thread called Purple Afghan) seem to be the same gene pool to me from the pics in both threads but apparently one is new Rare pure Afghan and one is an old Rare Pure Afghan!! Isn't he lucky to have 2 different ones when noone else seems to have any? Something smells wrong and its not my PotOfGold screen hash!

1.
British_Hempire said:
Hi Sam

Those of you that have been following my coco grow thread will know that I've been really impressed with the Purple Afghan plants I have, exceptional health and vigour, nicest 'Ghani type I've come across. I received them from an old timer who tells me they are an unhybridised Afghan from the 70s, I hope they are as they look really, really good. Now flowering has got underway, 3 of the four Purple Afghan ladies have turned very purple, the calyxes are a very deep dark purple and this is spreading onto the leaves, resin is already building up and they looks like they will be some very frosty, very purple colas. The fourth one is identical but green with only a tiny hint of pink on the calyxes. One of the purples is a touch darker than the others, so dark it is almost more black than purple. I have clones of the purple pheno. here they are, day 21 of 12/12. Last pic is the green pheno.

and 2. I think I got lucky and found a true Afghan landrace. A friend has a relative who's serving in the British Army and did a tour of Afghanistan in 2005, he brought some seeds back, I would guess from the Helmand province in the south-west, as I know the British were mostly in that province.

Indoors they took 70 days and were mostly purple, there were two green plants that were identical, just green buds, the lower buds on the green ones being pink. The high is a heady one, you feel it's effects in the fron of your head first and it has very little body stone. It's quite tall and has fairly thin leaves, so I am guessing that it's an indigenous landrace sativa such as described by Valilov rather than one of the short, broad-leafed drug cultivars we think of when we speak of Afghan types.
 
G

Guest

This is worth reading on the taxonomy of Cannabis:

I am not sure where my Purple Afghan would fall in the scientific classification of the species to be honest. Certainly the well known derivatives of Afghan varieties such as Afghan#1, Sam's Hindu Kush, Maple Leaf Indica, Black Domina etc. are all short, broad-leafed drug varietals which should be classified as C. sativa subsp. indica, and probably all from the C. sativa subsp. indica var. indica subspecies. The Purple Afghan is quite tall, thinner leaved and doesn;t have any of the sedative, narcotiv 'couchlock' effects of indicas like Afghani#1 or Hindu Kush, it has a clear, all in the head effect, which you expect from a sativa, not an indica. I do not know, however whether it should be classified as C. sativa subsp. indica var. kafiristanica or C. sativa subsp. sativa var. sativa.


Species, subspecies, and varieties

The following taxonomic treatment of Cannabis was published in 1976 by Ernest Small and Arthur Cronquist. [1] Other taxonomic treatments of Cannabis are valid, and utilized by some botanists.


Cannabis

Cannabis sativa L.

C. sativa subsp. sativa

C. sativa subsp. sativa var. sativa
C. sativa subsp. sativa var. spontanea

C. sativa subsp. indica

C. sativa subsp. indica var. indica
C. sativa subsp. indica var. kafiristanica

[edit] C. sativa subsp. sativa

[edit] C. sativa subsp. sativa var. sativa

Correct name: Cannabis sativa L. subsp. sativa var. sativa

This taxon includes hemp landraces and cultivars grown for fiber or seed production. Fiber strains are usually tall and unbranched. Seed strains are often shorter, and may be branched or unbranched. Some strains are monoecious. Plants of certified industrial hemp strains produce a relatively high ratio of CBD to THC (about 20:1), and are not suitable for drug use.[1][2][3]

[edit] C. sativa subsp. sativa var. spontanea

Correct name: Cannabis sativa L. subsp. sativa var. spontanea (Vavilov) Small & Cronq.

Synonym: C. ruderalis Janisch.

This taxon includes wild or feral Cannabis plants. In the absence of selective breeding, these plants have lost many of the traits they were originally selected for, and have acclimatized to their locales. Plants of this type are often short, branchless, and early-flowering. The plants usually have low levels of cannabinoids, and a low ratio of THC to CBD, and thus are of little use as a source of drugs.[3] However, so-called "indica" drug strains are sometimes cross-bred with "ruderalis" to produce high THC plants having the hardiness and reduced height of "ruderalis".

The term "ruderal" was originally used in the former Soviet Union to describe populations of hemp that had escaped cultivation and adapted to the surrounding region. Plants of this type are widespread throughout central and eastern Europe, including Lithuania, Belarus, Latvia, and Estonia. Similar populations can be found in most of the areas where hemp cultivation was once prevalent. The most notable region in North America is the midwest, though populations occur sporadically throughout the United States and Canada. These plants have escaped from cultivation more recently, and often grow larger than the ruderal plants in Europe.

Cannabis users often call this feral Cannabis "ditch weed." Outside of its native range, it is regarded as an invasive plant. Despite years of government-sponsored eradication programs, these feral plants still remain in bountiful abundance.

It has several times been proposed that this taxon be recognized as a distinct species, called C. ruderalis.[4][5][6]

[edit] C. sativa subsp. indica

[edit] C. sativa subsp. indica var. indica

Correct name: Cannabis sativa L. subsp. indica (Lam.) Small & Cronq. var. indica (Lam.) Wehmer

Synonym: C. indica Lam.
Broad leaflets characteristic of wide-leafed varieties of C. sativa subsp. indica var. indica
Broad leaflets characteristic of wide-leafed varieties of C. sativa subsp. indica var. indica

This taxon includes two types of Cannabis cultivated for drug production,[1] commonly referred to by Cannabis aficionados as "sativa" and "indica".

Narrow-leafed "sativa" drug strains and landraces are native to the Indian subcontinent, and are also cultivated in Africa, South and Central America, the Caribbean basin, and in other marijuana producing regions. These strains are usually tall, laxly branched, and relatively late-maturing.[7] They have largely been replaced by so-called "indica/sativa" hybrids by commercial Cannabis growers because the hybrids often yield a larger crop in a shorter period of time.

Wide-leafed "indica" drug strains are traditionally cultivated in northwest India, Afghanistan, and Pakistan for the production of hashish, and may have originated in the Hindu-Kush or Tian Shan mountain range. Due to the often harsh and variable climate of those regions, these strains and landraces are better suited for cultivation in temperate climates. Plants of this type are relatively short, conical, and densely branched, having characteristcally wide leaflets, and tend to produce a lower ratio of THC to CBD than the narrow-leafed drug strains [8][9][3] Although many commercially available varieties are genetically fixed to produce relatively high levels of THC and low levels of CBD (which is not psychoactive),[3] some users report more of a "stoned" and less of a "high" effect from these varieties compared to the narrow-leafed strains. Differences in the terpenoid content of the essential oil may account for some of these differences.[10][11]
A large seed of the hemp biotype of C. indica, and a small seed of the feral biotype of the same putative species.
A large seed of the hemp biotype of C. indica, and a small seed of the feral biotype of the same putative species.

Anecdotal evidence suggests that when used recreationally, highs from "sativa" strains tend to produce clearer, cerebral "head" highs, whereas highs from "indica" strains produce more lethargic "body" highs, with emphasis on drowsiness, slight loss of motor coordination, and increase appetite ("munchies"). To date, no undisputable chemical or pharmacological basis for these differing effects has been discovered.

It has often been proposed that this taxon be recognized as a distinct species, C. indica. Most recently, on the basis of genetic, morphological, and chemotaxonomic analyses, Hillig assigned both the narrow-leaflet and wide-leaflet drug "biotypes", as well as southern and eastern Asian hemp (fiber/seed) landraces and wild Himalayan populations, to C. indica.[12][3][11][13]

[edit] C. sativa subsp. indica var. kafiristanica

Correct name: Cannabis sativa L. subsp. indica (Lam.) Small & Cronq. var. kafiristanica (Vavilov) Small & Cronq. Synonym: C. indica Lam. var. kafiristanica Vavilov.

This taxon includes wild or feral plants, mostly confined to the Indian subcontinent and other regions where Cannabis is grown for drug use and has escaped from cultivation. Individual plants may have low, similar, or high levels of THC relative to CBD. Plants with relatively high levels of Δ9-tetrahydrocannabidivarin (THCV) and/or cannabidivarin (CBDV) are also common in this group.[3] Compared with wild or feral plants of var. spontanea, plants of this taxon are often taller and more branched. The achenes are usually very small. The inflorescenses of pistillate plants are often elongated, and the fruits (achenes) drop off the plants as they mature.
 
G

Guest

Yes, but sadly at the time I had just bought a new aerocloner and the damn thing killed them all. I managed to keep cuts of both phenos of the Purple Afghan x Cheese cross I made.

I chose the best male of the three, two males were typical, longer nodes, quite lanky looking, minimal side branching, the third had the same structure as the females with very srong side branching from his 5 lowest nodes and the same shorter internode spacing as the females. He had purple striping on the first balls he grew so it was the obvious choice to select him to make seeds. I lightly pollinated all four females - 2 purple phenos, 1 green/pink pheno and 1 green pheno.

Currently I have some seedlings of Purple Afghan going, they were mothered by the #4 plant which is the one that all the pictures of the big purple colas are from. Sadly, I used recycled coco to pot them in and maybe I didn't sufficiently flush it as half of them damped off - their stems shrivelled and they fell over and died. The two remaining ones look fine though. All 4 had purple stems and purple undersides to their cotyledons. As soon as I move some clones I have vegging outdoors I will have space to start some more Purple Afghan seeds and I aim to select a purple male and female to cross in the hopes of making a line that is truebreeding for the purple colour and it doesn't appear that it is at present.
 
G

Guest

Hey BritishHempire,

I want to congratulate you on your afghani aquisiiton. They are far and few between so be sure and understand what you might have. All this other talk was just babble after you showed your babies.

In the late 60's, I was sent seeds from afghanistan from someone I knew in the peace corp. I got them in a pack of cigarretes with the tobacco taken out of 2 and then filled with seeds.. We planted them and I can remember a group of us going out into the backyard and holding up a bag of mexican to make a determination as to what part of the plant was to be smoked. We had only seen it in baggies up to that point and weren't sure what to do. It was my first grow.

I didn't know enough at the time to know what I had or that one day the seeds would be precious. I didn't know enough to pull the males so they seeded, but I don't know what I did with the seeds. I didn't know what I had or that I would spend the rest of my life growing. Ive kicked myself ever since.

Your'e a lucky fellow
 
G

Guest

I hope I'm a lucky fellow, a friend gave me the seeds and told me a soldier friend brought them back from Afghanistan, that's all I know. He assures me they are definitely not any kind of commercial genes but knows no more of thier origins than that.

I have grown a whole host of supposed Afghan types over the years, including a number of outdoor grows when I had a large back garden. They were all what you would class as indicas, all had a stony 'couchlock' effect, tastes and smells tend to be strong, some can be fruity, some can be earthy, some can be like rotting flesh - what I reckon you Americans call Skunky.

The Purple Afghan is nothing like any of those other Afghan types I've grown, it has a sweet taste and smell, not pungent like most Afghans, all four phenos were sweet and tasted like perfumed hashish, the green pheno was the sweetest, the pink/green pheno was sweet with definite hashy notes, one purple pheno was like sweet perfumed hash and the darker purple pheno was the least sweet and was very hashy tasting, the two purple phenos and the pink/green one were all fantastic, very similar, just variations in colour and smell/taste, although the differences weren;t great. The green pheno was a runt that took a while to get going and was smaller than the other plants when flowered, it only yielded 15g whereas the others were about 30g each. The other three were pretty similar in most aspects though, just varying colouring and smell/taste. I think it's a pretty stable, inbred line as I have seen much more variation in plants grown from other seeds I personally collected in Egypt and Mexico.

Some other folks have got some of these beans and are growing them now so I'll ask them to report on how their plants turn out, Alfred-cannaria has some Purple Afghan plants from seeds I made and he posted a pic of a purple pheno growing outdoors in the Canary Islands, looking forward to seeing how his crop turns out.

The Purple Afghan has a completely heady effect, very little body stone, it makes you feel warm, cosy, smily and happy, no couchlock at all, you feel the effects in the front of your head first, it feels like your forhead is turning to ice. This is an effect I remember from the red seal and gold seal 'squidgy black' hash we used to get in the UK in the 90s, which I am pretty sure was from Afghanistan.

If you look closely at the structure of these buds, you'll see that they have an open, airy structure with 'foxtail' type stips of calyxes, nothing at all like the dense structure of an indica, I think this open bud structure indicates that the plants are adapted to moist conditions, nto the adaptation of equatorial sativas to high humidity, but adaptation to frost and dew forming on the buds themselves, which makes me think this variety originates in high altitudes where frost at night and dew in the morning will be a problem. The intense purpling also indicates an adaptation to cold conditions, the purple pigment works like plant anti-freeze and prevents ice crystals forming inside the plant tissues, meaning the plants can survive freezing conditions where ice will form. To me, this suggests the variety is adapted to the high mountains of Afghanistan where it has to deal with low temperatures and moistuire on it's flowers, rather than the usual short, squat drug cultivars of the lower valleys we normally associate with Afghani cannabis.

12678DSCF0026-med.jpg


12678DSCF0025-med.jpg


12678DSCF0015-med.jpg


12678DSCF0014-med.jpg


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You can particularly see the foxtailing here:

12678DSCF0031-med.jpg
 

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