???Questions about PH and phosphorous???

[sophisto]

Oakey dokey, First thanks for looking at this thread and thanks in advance for any of the help you can lend me on this subject...

I am new to organics, not new to growing.

My soil is: FF ocean forest/ FF Light Warrior / 1 kilo of coco block / perlite/ and 1/4 cup dolomite lime..... I am in 2 gallon pots. Watered every 4-5 days approximately, with about 30 percent runoff.....Growing environment has been pretty ideal temps on average 76 day 68 night. Humidity has been pretty good hasnt ever gone higher than 60 never lower than 30.

My nutrients have been two different approaches. I use both Canna Bio and home made aerobic teas. The regime thus far has been 1 feed of Canna Bio, 1 feed of a tea.... I will list the tea recipes I have been using below.

Tea One:

(Veg)
- 3 tblsp of N Guano
- 5tbsp compost total
- 5 tbsp EWC total
- 2.5 tbsp Liquid Karma
- 5 tbsp Molasses
-2 tbsp Sea Kelp

Tea Two: (Veg)
- 5 tblsp of N Guano
- 7 tbsp EWC total
-7 tbsp Compost total In Flower add 1 tblsp of 0-7-0 Guano /
-5 tbsp Molasses
- 2.5 tbspLiquid Karma

Tea Three: ( Flower) See notes# 2
-8 tblsp of P Guano- (can go up to 10)
- 5 tbsp Compost
- 10 tbsp EWC If needed 1tblsp of N Guano can be added
- 2.5 tbsp Liquid Karma
- 5 tbsp Molasses.
- 1 tbsp Sea Kelp


All through veg there appeared to be no problems at all aside from a little PM.....I am now in day 30 of flower the Pm seems to be irradicated ? It appears that I have the beginnings of a phosphorous deficiency( Purple/red petioles and stems, older upper fan leaves showing discoloration on the outer leaf margins, some of the tips are curling up) ( Mynamestich has a thread on guide to sick plants, it looks exactly like the phosphorous deficiency picture there just not that far progressed)...
I have taken the adequate steps to properly diagnose this issue by purchasing a soil test kit from Hanna....This test kit allows you to test PH as well as the 3 major elements N P K.... My N tested low to medium....The P tested high....The K tested medium....Being as though I am in flower I feel that these readings are acceptable...
Once I knew that my NPK was on point I started looking to the root zone. I assumed it was either salt lock or possibly a rising Ph due to the bacterial teas I have been using... In my search of the root zone I flushed two pots to test the run off...The water went in at 0 ppm and came out at 1100....This seems high for organics right?????? Second I tested the PH of the runoff with my Milwakee PH pen...The water went in at 6.5 came out at 8.2.......I also used the Hanna ph test that came with the NPK kit and it seems that the soil tests at between 5 and 6???? Further complicating the diagnosis.....GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!
My guess now is that A. I have either to high of a Ph in my soil or B. I have salt lock...C is maybe I am lacking a trace element that allows the uptake of P correctly. All these cases have the ability to lock out NPK right???

I also have read that bacterial teas like the ones I posted above can raise the ph of the soil.....I also understand that fungal teas can lower the ph of the soil.....


What is the solution to my problem????

1. Flush the pots heavily to rule out salt lock ( I thought this wasnt an issue with Organics).???? I DID THIS ALREADY......
2. Change or alter my nutrient regime???
3. Top dress with some Dolomite lIme to lower the PH of the soil.......IF it is the problem...?????



Again thanks in advance for the advice...........

 

[sophisto]

come on peepa nah....smile on your brother...........bump^^^^^

 

[MynameStitch]

Sounds like with that feeding regimen maybe burn and locking it out.

You should never have a phosphorus deficiency if the levels are high in the soil, so that leads to a burn/lockout issue.
Sounds like you have a heavy feeding, how big are these plants?

How often are you feeding?

After you flushed did you go back to your normal feeding regimen?
Dolomite lime will not lower the pH, when did you check the pH before or after a flush?

PH is a problem due to high amounts of feeding you have, if you properly flushed the soil your pH should lower.


Is your milwakee pH pen calbrated? When was the last time it was calbrated?

out at 1100....This seems high for organics right??????

That's insane for soil dude! If it still comes out that ppm after a flush, you need to flush again you did not do a proper flush, flushing requires 2X the amount of soil to the size of the pot. If you are using 3 gallon pot and the plant is in the correct pot size you need around 6 gallons of water to flush it properly.

You have pics of your plant?
Sounds to me your plants are nute burned. You need to first do a proper flush before doing anything else and I would change the amount of food you feed your plant, that is too high, your feeding should ALWAYS be based on the size of the plant not by what the directions tell you on the back.
The only exception to that rule is if the nutes are cannabis specific.

 

[sophisto]

Sounds like with that feeding regimen maybe burn and locking it out.

You should never have a phosphorus deficiency if the levels are high in the soil, so that leads to a burn/lockout issue.
Sounds like you have a heavy feeding, how big are these plants?

How often are you feeding?

After you flushed did you go back to your normal feeding regimen?
Dolomite lime will not lower the pH, when did you check the pH before or after a flush?

PH is a problem due to high amounts of feeding you have, if you properly flushed the soil your pH should lower.


Is your milwakee pH pen calbrated? When was the last time it was calbrated?




That's insane for soil dude! If it still comes out that ppm after a flush, you need to flush again you did not do a proper flush, flushing requires 2X the amount of soil to the size of the pot. If you are using 3 gallon pot and the plant is in the correct pot size you need around 6 gallons of water to flush it properly.

You have pics of your plant?
Sounds to me your plants are nute burned. You need to first do a proper flush before doing anything else and I would change the amount of food you feed your plant, that is too high, your feeding should ALWAYS be based on the size of the plant not by what the directions tell you on the back.
The only exception to that rule is if the nutes are cannabis specific.

Hey stitch thanks for droppin in....


Well I hope you dont think I am feeding them to much when I tell you that those ingredients for the teas are for 5 gallons of brew not 1 gallon. IF you still say it's to much than wow I feel stupid......

Your questions:

How big are the plants? 24" or so, 30 days into flower

How often am I feeding ? every 4-6 days ( 1 canna bio at dose, next time I feed a tea, I alternate from Bio to tea) I never feed tea and bio together.

Did I go back to the regular feeding regime after flushing? No not yet....Somehow I feel like the next feeding is gonna be light ...

When did I check the PH????? both runoff and soil I tested after the flush...Again this morning the ph was practically the same....

I also just for clarification purpose I did flush my two gallon pots with 4 gallons of water...The two pots I tested the runoff of were only rinsed with 8 cups of water just to see what that runoff was as I wanted to see what was inside the pot..

My main question is how did the PPM's get this high in the first place, to even become a factor in salt lock, Secondly I thought Organics did not consist of salts???? Third, why the heck is my ph buffered soil not ph buffering??LAstly where the heck is this deficiency coming from???Am I an idiot??? not in a bad way but in a good way..a good idiot ,damnit...LOL

By the way the good idiot found out that Lime as you said will not lower ph , it's alkaline duh!!!!

 

[mjcuresall]

I don't mean to step on MynameStitch in any way, but I've got something to add here.

Organic gurus such as BurnOne, Suby and others will testify that you cannot flush organics. That FoxFarm stuff is heavily amended with stuff that just cannot be washed out of the medium.

Those gurus will also confirm that pH buffering is accomplished by humates like compost and worm castings in the soil and not lime.

You're using molasses which also acts as a chelator, helping to convert nutrients in the soil to a form more readily available to the plant. That said, using molasses with the FoxFarm soil (which is already quite hot and rich) along with the nutes in the teas could certainly lead to some kind of burning.

I'd suggest you find a way to add more humates. Liquid Karma contains liquid compost and humic acid, so I'd start with that.

My suggestion is water with just Liquid Karma (at 2 tsp/gal) until the plants show signs they need additional nutes. Omit the molasses for now or use it (at 1 tsp/gal) every other watering.

Using just the Liquid Karma for now would address your pH problem. Once your soil's buffering ability has been restored, whatever lockout you may have should be corrected.

My . Hope I've helped by giving you something to think about.

 

[sophisto]

I don't mean to step on MynameStitch in any way, but I've got something to add here.

Organic gurus such as BurnOne, Suby and others will testify that you cannot flush organics. That FoxFarm stuff is heavily amended with stuff that just cannot be washed out of the medium.

Those gurus will also confirm that pH buffering is accomplished by humates like compost and worm castings in the soil and not lime.

You're using molasses which also acts as a chelator, helping to convert nutrients in the soil to a form more readily available to the plant. That said, using molasses with the FoxFarm soil (which is already quite hot and rich) along with the nutes in the teas could certainly lead to some kind of burning.

I'd suggest you find a way to add more humates. Liquid Karma contains liquid compost and humic acid, so I'd start with that.

My suggestion is water with just Liquid Karma (at 2 tsp/gal) until the plants show signs they need additional nutes. Omit the molasses for now or use it (at 1 tsp/gal) every other watering.

Using just the Liquid Karma for now would address your pH problem. Once your soil's buffering ability has been restored, whatever lockout you may have should be corrected.

My . Hope I've helped by giving you something to think about.

OK cool good suggestion...........

 

[MynameStitch]

Organic gurus such as BurnOne, Suby and others will testify that you cannot flush organics. That FoxFarm stuff is heavily amended with stuff that just cannot be washed out of the medium.

I know for a fact this is incorrect and the reason why I say this, I have had so many people flush out there FFOF mixtures and many other mixtures like moonshine and there plants have recovered from burns, so if that was the case then the plants would not be able to absorb the nutrients when it was watered, if nutrients react when water hits them, they CAN be washed out weather organics or not.
How would a plant be able to absorb organic nutrients if they are not leeched out by adding water?

Does not make any sense at all.