Question re: feminized parent plants and crosses

[SandyFantasyman]

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[Guy Brush]

Should both be the same...

 

[browntrout]

This one has been debated for a while. I've always stuck with DJ's methods. After growing Cannacopias DC hybrids you can see how dominant the Deep Chunk is for certain traits, especially for boosting the mothers flavor in aroma substantially.

Here's an Excerpt:


The Blueberry (among others) was discovered and stabilized from an
f1 cross between the P1 parents of a female Juicy Fruit Thai or a
female Purple Thai and a male Afghani Indica. Thus there were two
possible routes to essentially the same finished product. Blue
Velvet and Flo seem more accessible via the Purple Thai route, while
Blue Moonshine seems more accessible through the Juicy Fruit
lineage. That is, there is a higher probability of occurence of the
specific traits which I'm seeking, and so they're easier to "find".

Oddly enough, the opposite cross (female Afghani indica crossed with
pollen from male Thai sativa) was not nearly as interesting. The
f1's from this cross were more leafy and less desirable. They were
also more hermaphroditic and subsequent breeding revealed them to be
less desirable. It has been my observation that in a successful
cross, the (usually female) sativa contributes the type of aroma and
flavour, while the (usually male) indica contributes the amount of
aroma and flavour to the prodigy. So far this observation has proven
fruitful.

If one could say DJ's approach was accurate I don't think that the difference would be greater be it regular M/F pollen or feminized. Although in my experience the feminized pollen donor seems to be much more dominant than regular a male donor.

 

[jaypopnseeds]

The only things that can vary when it comes to the direction of crosses is epigenetics.



If you've heard of epigenetics, it's because it became a big buzzword in the world of molecular biology about 5 years ago. People found that some traits could be imprinted on an individual from their environment, and not controlled by genotype. An example would be the mother's fetal environment "imprinting" upon the child.



Now, you probably haven't heard about epigenetics lately. That's because people haven't found many traits controlled through epigenetics. In the grand scheme of things, the effect of epigenetics is very minimal.


If you're using fem pollen, and thus are using the exact same plants in both directions, the resulting offspring populations will be indistinguishable.

This one has been debated for a while. I've always stuck with DJ's methods. After growing Cannacopias DC hybrids you can see how dominant the Deep Chunk is for certain traits, especially for boosting the mothers flavor in aroma substantially.

Here's an Excerpt:


The Blueberry (among others) was discovered and stabilized from an
f1 cross between the P1 parents of a female Juicy Fruit Thai or a
female Purple Thai and a male Afghani Indica. Thus there were two
possible routes to essentially the same finished product. Blue
Velvet and Flo seem more accessible via the Purple Thai route, while
Blue Moonshine seems more accessible through the Juicy Fruit
lineage. That is, there is a higher probability of occurence of the
specific traits which I'm seeking, and so they're easier to "find".

Oddly enough, the opposite cross (female Afghani indica crossed with
pollen from male Thai sativa) was not nearly as interesting. The
f1's from this cross were more leafy and less desirable. They were
also more hermaphroditic and subsequent breeding revealed them to be
less desirable. It has been my observation that in a successful
cross, the (usually female) sativa contributes the type of aroma and
flavour, while the (usually male) indica contributes the amount of
aroma and flavour to the prodigy. So far this observation has proven
fruitful.

If one could say DJ's approach was accurate I don't think that the difference would be greater be it regular M/F pollen or feminized. Although in my experience the feminized pollen donor seems to be much more dominant than regular a male donor.

I have many issues with this DJ excerpt.



First, the female contributes the type of aroma and the flavor...the male contributes the amount of aroma and flavor.....UM WHAT?! Which is contributing the flavor, the male or the female? It's contradicting itself.



Everything I've heard about Deep Chunk, it just sucks for breeding. It turns everything it touches into Deep Chunk. That's not because people are using Deep Chunk as a male or female, it's just specific to that strain. Its traits are very dominant.



Another example is Greenpoint Seeds Stardawg male. Gu has crossed that male to dozens of female clones. Of those crosses, the vast majority of phenos are Stardawg-dominant. If you go by DJ's thought process, the smell should be dominated by the female, but that's definitely not the case.



Finally, my biggest problem with that DJ quote: DJ was not using fem pollen, so doing crosses in both directions meant selecting entirely different plants. The most likely and most rational reason for the difference between the crosses is that DJ simply chose shitty parents for one of them. Instead, DJ decides to use bro-science and decide that the direction of the cross matters. There's simply no genetic reason to believe that the direction of a cross could have a significant effect.

 

[browntrout]

The only things that can vary when it comes to the direction of crosses is epigenetics.



If you've heard of epigenetics, it's because it became a big buzzword in the world of molecular biology about 5 years ago. People found that some traits could be imprinted on an individual from their environment, and not controlled by genotype. An example would be the mother's fetal environment "imprinting" upon the child.



Now, you probably haven't heard about epigenetics lately. That's because people haven't found many traits controlled through epigenetics. In the grand scheme of things, the effect of epigenetics is very minimal.


If you're using fem pollen, and thus are using the exact same plants in both directions, the resulting offspring populations will be indistinguishable.








I have many issues with this DJ excerpt.



First, the female contributes the type of aroma and the flavor...the male contributes the amount of aroma and flavor.....UM WHAT?! Which is contributing the flavor, the male or the female? It's contradicting itself.



Everything I've heard about Deep Chunk, it just sucks for breeding. It turns everything it touches into Deep Chunk. That's not because people are using Deep Chunk as a male or female, it's just specific to that strain. Its traits are very dominant.



Another example is Greenpoint Seeds Stardawg male. Gu has crossed that male to dozens of female clones. Of those crosses, the vast majority of phenos are Stardawg-dominant. If you go by DJ's thought process, the smell should be dominated by the female, but that's definitely not the case.



Finally, my biggest problem with that DJ quote: DJ was not using fem pollen, so doing crosses in both directions meant selecting entirely different plants. The most likely and most rational reason for the difference between the crosses is that DJ simply chose shitty parents for one of them. Instead, DJ decides to use bro-science and decide that the direction of the cross matters. There's simply no genetic reason to believe that the direction of a cross could have a significant effect.

I think your reading into his opinions a bit far.

"It has been my observation that in a successful
cross, the (usually female) sativa contributes the type of aroma and
flavour, while the (usually male) indica contributes the amount of
aroma and flavour to the prodigy. So far this observation has proven
fruitful."

DJ isn't even saying it's foolproof, merely accounts of his experiences.

In terms of "DC sucks for breeding" beauty is in the eye of the be-holder, and a little odd someone using "science" would make such a statement. It is severely dominant but definitely has it's uses. Maybe worth picking up some beans and running them before speaking to it's breeding capabilities, maybe you have grown the hybrids?

I get what your saying, I don't think it's totally rational/concise in most cases, but for me appears to be the case in some of my experiences. Perhaps dominant traits lined up to make a false perception of this.

 

[SandyFantasyman]

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[Mr. Greengenes]

A female plant will influence differently through it's staminate genes than from it's seeds. That means you will get a different set of traits from it's pollin on one of it's sisters than if you used one of it's brothers to pollinate it. You still get a similar amount of variation as from male female crosses, but not from selfed plants. Also, you don't always get 100% female seeds from female to female crosses, like you do (mostly) from selfing. The only way to find out what kind of influence a plant will have is through progeny testing, punnett squares just don't do the trick.

 

[Ibechillin]

Does A Male Or Female Pass On More Genetics To Their Offspring?: From February 2018

Link To Thread:
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=350271

White Fire is a famous cross. Fire Og female x (reversed female) The White. Would it be the same if the other way around? It would be a great test. Natural males are an unknown factor (crap shoot) since they don't grow buds.

One way to test this is to take 2 stable but non related varieties (A and B). Take 2 clones off one female plant from one variety (A) and 2 clones off of another female from the other variety (B). Take 1 clone from each variety and reverse them onto the other variety (A-reversed x B, B-reversed x A). This way we will find out of there is some natural process that is different when DNA is donated via pollen or in the calyx.

It makes absolutely no difference which parent in a cross is male and which is female. The genetic potential of the offspring is the same either way. The only practical difference is the resultant seed size may vary depending on which parent is the female, and this is due to the size of the calyx on the female.

The phenotypes seen in the offspring from any cross or pollination are the result of the dominant alleles inherited from each parent.

Hope this helps.

I've done the double reverse and there was no difference in the offspring phenotypes as expected. The one difference was that seed size from the cross was different due to the maternal parents having considerably different sized calyx.

Regardless if the female is Haze or Skunk the f1 hybrids express the same general terpene and Cannabinoids, I have made hundreds and tested them.

There may be sex linked traits but this has not been proven in Cannabis.
-SamS

 

[Bgoat]

cheers for the links.

 

[Elmer Bud]

This one has been debated for a while. I've always stuck with DJ's methods. After growing Cannacopias DC hybrids you can see how dominant the Deep Chunk is for certain traits, especially for boosting the mothers flavor in aroma substantially.

Here's an Excerpt:


The Blueberry (among others) was discovered and stabilized from an
f1 cross between the P1 parents of a female Juicy Fruit Thai or a
female Purple Thai and a male Afghani Indica. Thus there were two
possible routes to essentially the same finished product. Blue
Velvet and Flo seem more accessible via the Purple Thai route, while
Blue Moonshine seems more accessible through the Juicy Fruit
lineage. That is, there is a higher probability of occurence of the
specific traits which I'm seeking, and so they're easier to "find".

Oddly enough, the opposite cross (female Afghani indica crossed with
pollen from male Thai sativa) was not nearly as interesting. The
f1's from this cross were more leafy and less desirable. They were
also more hermaphroditic and subsequent breeding revealed them to be
less desirable. It has been my observation that in a successful
cross, the (usually female) sativa contributes the type of aroma and
flavour, while the (usually male) indica contributes the amount of
aroma and flavour to the prodigy. So far this observation has proven
fruitful.

If one could say DJ's approach was accurate I don't think that the difference would be greater be it regular M/F pollen or feminized. Although in my experience the feminized pollen donor seems to be much more dominant than regular a male donor.

G `day BT

I think that theory says more about selection in Hash plant genetics compared to ganja plant genetics .

Hash plant . No selection , hash the field males / females / herms .Get a mean of the potency and stability of the field .

Ganja plant selected lots of generations ,smoke individual plants .Each individual can be evaluated for potency and structure and intersex .

Thanks for sharin

EB .

 

[SandyFantasyman]

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[Ibechillin]

They both mean there is no difference in offspring phenotypes, just that seed size varies depending on the mother used.

The largest seeds I have are 12 to one gram, I collected from Yunnan China.
The smallest are over 800 to one gram, I collected in Kashmir at 9,000 feet.

I grew the tiny ones at sea level to see if the altitude made the seeds smaller, but they were the same size when I grew them at sea level.

-SamS

Seeds from a single clone can be different in size depending on several factors.
#1 Plant size, tiny, tiny, flowered plants give smaller seeds.
#2 If a large plant is early and very lightly seeded the seeds will be bigger.
#3 If the same clone, same size is flowered and bombed with pollen you will get way more seeds, some will be white, many will be smaller. The plant is dividing its energy to make more seeds.
#4 Environment can alter seed size a bit like cold or to hot or not enough nutrients etc.
-SamS

I have seeds 12 to the gram and 800+ to the gram. I have crossed many big with small, both parents being the seed parent in different crosses. The moms are what makes seeds big and/or small in F1 seeds.
-SamS

I have seen seeds grown on F2 plants where the seeds did not fit into the Calyx's way to big, and the reverse where the tiny seeds just rattled in a big calyx.
-SamS

 

[SandyFantasyman]

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