Question re. decarbing, etc. - towards a cannabutter master tek

[peppernuts]

Hi all,

I pose this question on what seems to be a smarter cannabis community than I've found on other forums... Of course, I appreciate any advice, but I especially appreciate advice from experts.

I'm frustrated by the lack of consistent answers regarding decarbing for edibles, and simmering time on cannabutter. Anyone who's researched this knows what I mean.

These are theoretical and practical problems; I don't expect to find answers that are purely theoretical or purely practical (anecdotal). A good mix of both is probably a good thing, but I like science, so...

So I'm trying to collect some solid answers to several related issues:

1. Curing is a kind of decarbing. (Right?) So, say you have masterfully cured herb--in that case, would you still need to decarb that herb before using it in edibles? Or does perfect curing = fully decarbing.

2. For those of us who aren't part of a collective and aren't master growers ourselves, I think its safe to say that most of the herb we can get is not "masterfully cured." Such is the black market--and such is probably why decarbing makes such a big difference for run-of-the-mill, good but not blue-ribbon good, herb. Does this sound right to y'all?

3. Does anybody know good chemistry tables of cannabinoid decarb temps? Does anyone have good rule-of-thumb decarb temps? (I assume timing is a function of the variable dryness of the herb, so timing doesn't seem to be an issue; when it's crumbly, it's done, no?) Related to #1: is temp even an issue for decarbing; could I decarb by just leaving the herb in a dry cupboard for a month?

4. Methods. Microwave? Oven? Food dehydrator? Microwaves are pretty snaggly; they just seem too variable and they don't produce any consistent temps. I'm under the impression that dehydrators work a generally low (>150F) temp, and they seem the safest to me. I've used an oven with decent results (I think, I'm no expert). Would the dehydrator be the ideal method (albeit a little more time consuming)?

5. Simmering time. This is the most frustrating thing for me. I've seen five-minute lard/oil recipes, and cannabutter recipes range from one hour to 24 hours. It seems like the most common rec. is three hours. But I've head that doing it for more than three hours is bad. I've clocked in at about eight with good results. But if only takes three hours to leech the cannabinoids out of the herb, I'd rather not run my stove all day long. What the hell is the right simmering time?!

6. Simmering temp. This is got a pretty good range to as well. My question is, so long as the herb is decarbed, does the hot butter/water need to be any hotter than it takes to keep the concoction liquid? I've heard that hotter temps make for better leeching (with the obvious caveat that too-hot temps are bad). What do you think?

These are the main questions I have now, but I'm sure I'll think up more, especially if I can get a good response from some experts out there. My goal is to make a cannabutter tek that isn't just another "this works really well for me" tek--I want to make the gold-standard tek!

And--I've always been kinda shocked it doesn't already exist. But I can't find it. If you know where it is, would be kind enough to send me that way?

[For the record, I did search the forums for pertinent threads, and while I didn't do exhaustive research, I couldn't find threads like the one I'm trying to start; just threads in relation to one persons' perhaps good but always idiosyncratic method. But forgive me, as a newbie to the community, if I overlooked the obvious somehow.]

 

[geopolitical]

1. does perfect curing = fully decarbing.

Nope, there's always a tiny bit of moisture left, but close counts. Remember the same actions that drive decarb can also drive breakdown of actives. You'd more than likely reach a point of diminishing returns fairly quickly.

2. Does this sound right to y'all?

The moisture level is often higher as more moisture = more weight. This can vary a LOT though, so I wouldn't put any rule of thumb to commercial weed other than "it's going to vary like hell".

3. Does anybody know good chemistry tables of cannabinoid decarb temps?

Nope, be great if someone could assay up a chart.

4. Methods. Microwave? Oven? Food dehydrator?

Dehydrator, but unless you live someplace crazy humid air drying should work in a pinch if you leave it long enough.

5. Simmering time. What the hell is the right simmering time

It's a balancing act. The longer/hotter you simmer the faster/more completely you'll dissolve your actives but you'll also start oxidizing/cracking all sorts of things at hotter temps. Longer simmers dissolve more/all available actives but they also bring anything else (plant waxes, etc) along for the ride, some of which may be objectionable. Very long simmers will tend to thermally break down much of what gives an extracted oil it's "green" taste, leaving light toasted notes behind.

That being said if you're going to store the oil low temp processing has been linked to things like botulism (not specifically cannabis which may in fact be anti-bacterial but I'm not betting my life on it) so that's something to consider.

6. I've heard that hotter temps make for better leeching (with the obvious caveat that too-hot temps are bad).

Yes, but with the things to consider above.

 

[devilgoob]

1. Curing decarboxylates very little and a lot of THCA is left over. I recommend 140C, because GW Pharamcueticals of Sativex the THC:CBD spray does that. The straight up say they decarb at that specific temp.

2. A lot of my friends come to me with dank, they also have dank hookups. This is all regular sinsemilla that leaves charcoal over. You can really tell the difference and the white ash left over isn't just a snob thing, if you get clean burning with no chunks...someone made it like that and took proper care. Im sure loading it with nutes and selling it that way gives a bigger yield

3. Decarbing takes forever without heat. We decarb when we smoke, but to decarb a bud you'd bake it I believe.

4. An oven with a candy thermometer that has reached a tad over 140C.

5. The time? I try 25 minutes, it's efficient and I know I have no destroyed anything in 25 minutes but also know the decarb works at this temp and time.

6. Hotter temps make a good leaching, but hotter temps never really have affected much of mine because WATER boils at a certain temp and when I cook my edibles I know when my biscuit is getting dry it is done.

The water acts as a buffer, but after the water is evaped the heat will take its toll.

EDIT: Thank you for that chart below, I have seen it before. After I realized 140C is what GW used, then I had to follow, but I did notice 18 minutes was the magic time for that, pre-heated in a small oven. The chart must be accurate because 30 minutes or more baking and there was less effect atleast with the cannabis strain I am using. To little baking or heating of the THC yields less effect also.

And I assume the chart did not factor in atmospheric pressures which is only in my opinion another factor. I have found my 18-21 minute time at 140C, other variables and measuring yield to accurate of formula.

You must go by the chart (don't have to lol) and use common sense as to it's potency and decarb %.

 

[LAcon]

I believe this is something you're looking for. Its helped me a lot, hope it can help you too.

 

[peppernuts]

Thanks to the three of you! This will be ongoing, I hope.

 

[peppernuts]

Also, I'm out of any sort of loops these days so I wouldn't know unless I asked--is this "secret recipe" territory I'm wondering into? Do people tend to keep certain aspects of their technique--like those perennially mysterious and debatable ones I'm raising in this thread--to themselves? I ask because I these forums seem pretty full of some pretty wise individuals, and I was hoping more than three would turn out here. (Not by any means am I whining that I'm being ignored, however!) It just seemed like a statistical likelihood. I was wondering if maybe I'm just asking the colonel about his herbs and spices, so to speak...?

 

[supermanlives]

i get plenty stoned enough . i havent bothered to refine my methods. so no help .

 

[devilgoob]

The isomerization of the extract is done by greywolf and requires tools and general smarts and I truly believe it's real.

Another is soy lecithin. Some just do it and think it works and it does and should.
I did believe soy lecithin produced a faster onset and better, stronger high...but not fully until I tested that. It works.

Coconut oil is in testing but a bunch of med people are doing it for the same reasons of making it better.

A few tweaks I have are: proper hydration and smoking efficiently.

One thing is I see someone spark a joint and 1/4 is gone and burned up in the flick of the flame. The second hit from another person is huge and burns the joint down, now it's running.

YOU cant hit it so hard, the resin builds onto itself and burns at it's rate. Don't take a hit of fresh stuff like a regular hit, only enough air pulled to spark it...then you pull away from the joint and inhale the puff.

Also people can't puff...they must do big sucks....WHY? At the end when the roach is sizzlin'...it's at it's most potent! Take big hits at the end and they're better more efficient. Take small hits beginning. Not the other way around when someone can't smoke it cuz it's too small.

 

[Haps]

Your reading is too narrow, read all the threads here, and you will get a better picture. Then run batches for several years, and eat every bit of it yourself. Stoner science babey.

Heat the herb for 30 minutes at 250f, uncovered, it will stink to high heaven, prepare for that.

H

ps, butter sucks, milk is the ticket.

 

[Greenheart]

3. Does anybody know good chemistry tables of cannabinoid decarb temps? Does anyone have good rule-of-thumb decarb temps? (I assume timing is a function of the variable dryness of the herb, so timing doesn't seem to be an issue; when it's crumbly, it's done, no?) Related to #1: is temp even an issue for decarbing; could I decarb by just leaving the herb in a dry cupboard for a month?

5. Simmering time. This is the most frustrating thing for me. I've seen five-minute lard/oil recipes, and cannabutter recipes range from one hour to 24 hours. It seems like the most common rec. is three hours. But I've head that doing it for more than three hours is bad. I've clocked in at about eight with good results. But if only takes three hours to leech the cannabinoids out of the herb, I'd rather not run my stove all day long. What the hell is the right simmering time?!

6. Simmering temp. This is got a pretty good range to as well. My question is, so long as the herb is decarbed, does the hot butter/water need to be any hotter than it takes to keep the concoction liquid? I've heard that hotter temps make for better leeching (with the obvious caveat that too-hot temps are bad). What do you think?

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=107780

It's a long read but the sticky has lots of good info.