Question about watercooled equipment/chillers

[OIBI]

So I'm interested in setting up a sealed, water cooled room. I had a few questions that haven't been answered so far in the threads I've been reading. I have 240v, and 120v available. Trying to keep everything as energy efficient as possible.

1: Has anyone ever hear of, or used and chillers from 'penguin chillers'? Their 1hp chiller looks like it would be a nice unit for the price.

2: Who makes the most power efficient water chiller in the 2hp or less range?

3: Who makes the most power efficient air handler(in terms of CFM per watt) for ambient cooling? I think Somewhere in the neighborhood of 2000CFM. I was considering A pair of 8 inch hyperfans with an icebox and a carbon filter on opposite sides of the room would be adequate combined with a efficient 52" ceiling fan. The hyperfans would move 1400cfm and draw less than 150w on high speed and the ceiling fan can move up too 6200cfm. Any other options such as wall mounted Air handlers?

4: Who makes the most efficient dehumidifier in the 70-80ppd range?

5: Would it be more efficient to run two pumps, one to circulate the reservoir water through the water chiller and another to circulate chilled water through the room? Or is it better to just use one pump?

Thanks for your time.

 

[queequeg152]

you are not smelting aluminum. you do not need to squeeze every single ounce of efficiency from your equipment.

chillers cost too much. most of the chillers offered by hydro companies are a joke.

if you seriously want a chiller... id look water source heat pumps... keep in mind they are rated for like... 60 degree ground water loops so you will have to savagly downgrade their performance based on what ever your tap water temperature is.

axial fans move more cfm per watt... only under 0 static pressure. if you want to move air across a wet coil, good filter, ductwork etc. you want a variable speed blower unit.

1 ton of refrigeration is like 3 hp? something like that.
your two hp unit is a joke.... its probably designed to service something like a large aquarium, not a room full of hot miniature burning suns.

the chiller systems you are thinking of are only marginally more efficient than a regular air sourced. chiller systems can be significantly more efficient, especially when you consider huge multi zoned systems...with evaporative coolers and gigantic centrifugal chillers on VFD units, but what you are proposing will not be.

 

[Hydropimp]

How many lights?

water cooled a/c connected to a well.


I just drilled the well yesterday.

will source the a/c in a few days got the flow just need the time.

if you go this route no outside unit and the cap to the well is under ground.

so nothing grow related outside.

A 5 TON unit could cool any where from 10-15k

And I would insulate all rooms. When i get everything up and runin will post.

 

[queequeg152]

good luck with the above. if done well, a geothermal system is an awsome efficient way to cool a space. when its done badly however... its just a dissapointing money pit.

 

[OIBI]

you are not smelting aluminum. you do not need to squeeze every single ounce of efficiency from your equipment.

No, I'm not smelting aluminum, you're right. I'm eleiminating every stray watt simply for the sake of the intellectual pursuit of doing so. To see whats possible if nothing else. So yes, I do need to squeeze every once of efficiency out of my equipment possible

Sorry if you disagree.

if you seriously want a chiller... id look water source heat pumps... keep in mind they are rated for like... 60 degree ground water loops so you will have to savagly downgrade their performance based on what ever your tap water temperature is.

I'll look into it. Would a 'water source heat pump' be a drain to waste system then?

axial fans move more cfm per watt... only under 0 static pressure. if you want to move air across a wet coil, good filter, ductwork etc. you want a variable speed blower unit.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the iceboxes were designed to work with inline axial fans were they not? Why would a blower be a better choice and how much static pressure is needed?

1 ton of refrigeration is like 3 hp? something like that.
your two hp unit is a joke.... its probably designed to service something like a large aquarium, not a room full of hot miniature burning suns.

~4.7 Horse power per refrigeration ton according to google. I though I had listed my room size in the OP, but I guess I didn't. This is only a ~120square foot space displacing 2.4kw in air cooled hoods. Not a monster 20kw warehouse.

a 14k btu window shaker would serve my cooling needs. I just don't have access to a window and I'm interested in experimenting with other technology.

How many lights?

water cooled a/c connected to a well.


I just drilled the well yesterday.

will source the a/c in a few days got the flow just need the time.

if you go this route no outside unit and the cap to the well is under ground.

so nothing grow related outside.

A 5 TON unit could cool any where from 10-15k

And I would insulate all rooms. When i get everything up and runin will post.

I wish, I'm on municipal water. Digging further than 1' in this area is difficult without heavy equipment and the city would want to see permits.

I'm not really worried about external equipment. It would be concealed from street view due to the layout of the property and no one I know would bat an eye at it.

Interested to see your setup though.

 

[queequeg152]

No, I'm not smelting aluminum, you're right. I'm eleiminating every stray watt simply for the sake of the intellectual pursuit of doing so. To see whats possible if nothing else. So yes, I do need to squeeze every once of efficiency out of my equipment possible View Image

Sorry if you disagree.

i dont disagree at all here. just offering a practical solution.

if you genuinely want to operate an hvac system on the bleeding edge, then you need to get seriously invested in the technology. id suggest reading as much as you can about various measures of efficiency... COP verses SEER etc. learn about the way chillers work verses how air sourced condensing units work.

I'll look into it. Would a 'water source heat pump' be a drain to waste system then?

it would be unless you wanted to install a geothermal loop in your yard somehow. this is usually very expensive requiring excavation equipment and a good deal of skilled labor.

could also investigate some passive evaporative cooling techniques... or even build a cooling tower. the above will be very conspicuous.

from what i remember the rule of thumb for chillers is 1 cfm per ton of cooling? i could be wrong on that, but a 5 ton system would require 5cfm... a two ton would require 2 cfm.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the iceboxes were designed to work with inline axial fans were they not? Why would a blower be a better choice and how much static pressure is needed?

the icebox heat exchangers are stupid. IMO atleast.
they make sense for remote air handlers and shit, but not in this case.

what you want is an water cooled condensing unit and a regular refrigerant to air heat exchanger... basically a regular variable speed air handler.
this way you get the variable speed control of humidity and good static pressure required to run media air cleaners and carbon trays and ductwork... dampers all the good shit that goes into a proper hvac system.

~4.7 Horse power per refrigeration ton according to google. I though I had listed my room size in the OP, but I guess I didn't. This is only a ~120square foot space displacing 2.4kw in air cooled hoods. Not a monster 20kw warehouse.

a 14k btu window shaker would serve my cooling needs. I just don't have access to a window and I'm interested in experimenting with other technology.

so how many watts are you dumping into the room? thats the biggest question you need to answer... an air cooled light will dump less heat into the room than a naked affair... how much less i dont know.

1kw of lighting dumps something like 3.42kbtuh of heat.

2.4kw will then require only 8.2kbtuh. an efficient unit will ONLY allow you to approach 2.4kw consumed in removing the 2.4kw of heat generated.

you also have to consider external heat gains... exterior walls, attic space, slab... computers, all sorts of shit. i highly reccomend a proper manual J calculaiton.

 

[Hydropimp]

Tell me about the digging I had to hire a guy to do the dig

We must be around the same part rock after a foot as well.

I am in the same with the water.

But trust me if you are where I am this is how it's done down here.

No geothermal loop.

Just cold well water to cool the unit.

 

[Hydropimp]

Fuck a permit just dig and get him out of there.

Cover the area and your good.

Next is to rent a trencher to run pvc to the pump and unit.

Time will show how its down.

I don't know why ppl don't use water units with wells work awsome

 

[Hydropimp]

Window banger did it for me but I use 2 windows

One for intake and one for exhaust.

But you can hear the exhaust when you where close to it.

 

[queequeg152]

Tell me about the digging I had to hire a guy to do the dig

We must be around the same part rock after a foot as well.

I am in the same with the water.

But trust me if you are where I am this is how it's done down here.

No geothermal loop.

Just cold well water to cool the unit.

wait... so you are just pumping ground water to a heat exchanger?

thought you were talking about cooling a heat pump with the ground water then puming it back down a well bore...

how well does this work? have you calculated the btus per kwh?

deep wells require very expensive, very powerfull pumps... in texas here during our 2011-2012ish drought i worked with a driller who put in a 10" well for a fancy religious school... had to be rated for fire flows. anyway, this well head had something like 300' of screening just to get the flows necessary...

on an unrelated but awesome note, the fire suppression pump that pressurizes all of the sprinklers was this fucking slick split case affair... 100hp painted in firetruck red enamel. it was tied directly into this nice powder coated bolted steel GST.i was never around for the fire marshal testing though... which made me sad.

anyway, you MUST have shallow well water... with nice permeable strata... else such a system would be very expensive. what pumps are you running here? sub pumps or shallow well jetting pumps?

how deep are your boors? what type of casing are you using to protect from groundwater contamination? hopefully something?

 

[OIBI]

so how many watts are you dumping into the room? thats the biggest question you need to answer... an air cooled light will dump less heat into the room than a naked affair... how much less i dont know.

1kw of lighting dumps something like 3.42kbtuh of heat.

2.4kw will then require only 8.2kbtuh. an efficient unit will ONLY allow you to approach 2.4kw consumed in removing the 2.4kw of heat generated.

you also have to consider external heat gains... exterior walls, attic space, slab... computers, all sorts of shit. i highly reccomend a proper manual J calculaiton.

I'll have more questions for you in a bit. But I wanted to address your questions and some questions I think you may have. The room is in a basement and is insulated. Ambient outside temps range from 115*F in summer to under 0 in winter. CO2 will be provided by a bottled source, so no burners.

Plants will be grown in fabric pots using a combination of passive hydro and living soil. Both will be fed by blumats with the reservoir for the passive hydro located outside of the room. The only heat generation here would be from the microbial life in the soil, so let's put that at 500btu or about the same as a occupant. Give or take.

4 600 watt lamps in air cooled reflectors with external ballasts. The 8 inch axial fan is also located outside the room. So let's say 10k btu for good measure.

The ceiling fan I have picked out draws ~30wand moves 6200cfm at high speed. It seemes like a more efficient alternative to using oscillating fans. So that's an additional 120btu.

At bare minimum I'll want at least one carbon filter just for air filtration. The current 6inch axial fan I have earmarked for that task draws 100w at full speed. So 400 more btu.

Add in an additional 1000 btu for occupancy and work lighting.

+/-400btu for misc monitoring equipment and automation.

So shall we say ~12.5k btu before we account for a dehumidifier and air handling equipment?

There are lighting upgrades in the pipeline, but a dialed in environment is a bit more important.

 

[queequeg152]

Fuck a permit just dig and get him out of there.

Next is to rent a trencher to run pvc to the pump and unit.

if you have a rocky or root filled soil you need the machinery...

you would be suprised how much trench you can dig with a good sharp 3" trenching shove. two guys can dig like 90' of trench in a day down here... assuming no roots and a clay tithe soil. a 6" or wider trench would probably be like half that though.

alongside your plumbing trench you almost always should run pvc electrical conduit with a string to pull instrumentation or data cables... just seal both ends with duct puddy to keep moisture from condensing inside the conduit.

pvc conduit costs almost nothing... even if you have no use for it at the moment... its almost always worth it imo. never know when you want to get data or sensor cable out to where ever.

its also not a bad idea to bury an isolated copper conductor ontop of the water lines... when you need to trace their exact location later on you just pump high frequency ac through them and trace the radio signal coming out of the ground.

 

[queequeg152]

I'll have more questions for you in a bit. But I wanted to address your questions and some questions I think you may have. The room is in a basement and is insulated. Ambient outside temps range from 115*F in summer to under 0 in winter.

4 600 watt lamps in air cooled reflectors with external ballasts. The 8 inch axial fan is also located outside the room. So let's say 10k btu for good measure.

insulated is good, but i still think a manual j is a good idea here... since you are an efficiency enthusiast, i think its a prudent and measured approach.

The ceiling fan I have picked out draws ~30wand moves 6200cfm at high speed. It seemes like a more efficient alternative to using oscillating fans. So that's an additional 120btu.

ceiling fans are good for perceptual comfort... percieved coolness has to do with a shitload of factors, one being air movement across the skin. with a ceiling fan and low humidity you might be able to cool a space to 78 and get away with it. without the fan you might need to cool the space to 75 or so. i think you get what im saying here.

as to whether or not a ceiling fan is good at mixing and homogenizing stratified air... i do not know. probably? you would probably want a fan every 8-12 or so feet though depending on size and how bad the stratification is.
IMO stratification needs to be addressed with proper duct design, not additional fans and stuff.


you are over estimating the head load generated by electric motors... i highly reccomend that you dig into the ASHRAE fundemental documents and look for the load estimation tables governing motors. im not familair with them off hand, but i can tell you that they are NOT 1:1 watts in to heat out. they might be close, but not nearly as close as lighting loads are.

light that is captured 100% within a space is said to convert almost 100% to heat because all that radiated energy is absorbed by concrete... drywall, plant tissue etc and re radiated as heat in some measure.

At bare minimum I'll want at least one carbon filter just for air filtration. The current 6inch axial fan I have earmarked for that task draws 100w at full speed. So 400 more btu.

keep in mind... you can build carbon trays for conventional air handlers. mixed flow fans deal with static pressure well... but not as well as a legit squirrel cage type blower.

a 1" carbon tray with proper pelleted vapor phase activated carbon in a v or w shape would probably produce at least .25" of static pressure at conventional face velocities around 4-500fpm.

you can enlarge the filters as much as you like... but these blowers handle around half an inch static pressure with ease. additional duct work presents additional surface area. additional surface area will accumulate additional heat if not placed within the conditioned space.

Add in an additional 1000 btu for occupancy and work lighting.

again, id encourage you to refer to the ASHRAE fundementals. if i recall right, a single occupant sitting at his desk typing or what ever... produces only like... 200btuh.

people working out, like in a gym is more than double that i think. plus you get the latent heat from them sweating into dry air.

 

[OIBI]

i dont disagree at all here. just offering a practical solution.

if you genuinely want to operate an hvac system on the bleeding edge, then you need to get seriously invested in the technology. id suggest reading as much as you can about various measures of efficiency... COP verses SEER etc. learn about the way chillers work verses how air sourced condensing units work.

That's where this thread comes in. Do you have any handy links bookmarked that would be a good start?

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]it would be unless you wanted to install a geothermal loop in your yard somehow. this is usually very expensive requiring excavation equipment and a good deal of skilled labor.

could also investigate some passive evaporative cooling techniques... or even build a cooling tower. the above will be very conspicuous.
[/FONT]

A drain to waste system wouldn't be a good choice for my situation. My municipal water supply is provided by the same source as the electrical power. The later being significantly cheaper and in greater supply.

A geoloop is the least desirable due to the setup. Rock, lots of very big rocks past the 1' mark. It's a nightmare to dig even with equipment.

Depending on the size I could probably get away with either a cooling tower or some sort of evaporative setup. Ambient humidity during the summer months is ~15-25%. A geoloop is the least desirable due to the setup. Rock, lots of very big rock past the 1' mark. It's a nightmare to dig even with equipment.

from what i reme

mber the rule of thumb for chillers is 1 cfm per ton of cooling? i could be wrong on that, but a 5 ton system would require 5cfm... a two ton would require 2 cfm.

With regards to what? I'm sorry, still very much a novice to HVAC.

what you want is an water cooled condensing unit and a regular refrigerant to air heat exchanger... basically a regular variable speed air handler.
this way you get the variable speed control of humidity and good static pressure required to run media air cleaners and carbon trays and ductwork... dampers all the good shit that goes into a proper hvac system.

Do you happen to know of a good example of a proper sealed room hvac system? Something about the same scale as I'm working with(14'x8'x8')?

so how many watts are you dumping into the room? thats the biggest question you need to answer... an air cooled light will dump less heat into the room than a naked affair... how much less i dont know.

2.4kw for lighting.
0.2kw for circulation fans(if necessary)
0.1kw for misc monitoring equipment, automation, solenoids, ect.

So maybe a grand total of 2.7kw of power total, 3kw max if I put a veg tent in the same space.

you also have to consider external heat gains... exterior walls, attic space, slab... computers, all sorts of shit. i highly reccomend a proper manual J calculaiton.

insulated is good, but i still think a manual j is a good idea here... since you are an efficiency enthusiast, i think its a prudent and measured approach.

Do you have a good resource for conducting such a calculation? A list of equations and a basic example, something like that?

ceiling fans are good for perceptual comfort... percieved coolness has to do with a shitload of factors, one being air movement across the skin. with a ceiling fan and low humidity you might be able to cool a space to 78 and get away with it. without the fan you might need to cool the space to 75 or so. i think you get what im saying here.

as to whether or not a ceiling fan is good at mixing and homogenizing stratified air... i do not know. probably? you would probably want a fan every 8-12 or so feet though depending on size and how bad the stratification is.
IMO stratification needs to be addressed with proper duct design, not additional fans and stuff.

What would you recommend over traditional oscilating fans and ceiling fans? Bearing in mind that I do plan too supplement CO2 since this is a sealed room.

you are over estimating the head load generated by electric motors... i highly reccomend that you dig into the ASHRAE fundemental documents and look for the load estimation tables governing motors. im not familair with them off hand, but i can tell you that they are NOT 1:1 watts in to heat out. they might be close, but not nearly as close as lighting loads are.

light that is captured 100% within a space is said to convert almost 100% to heat because all that radiated energy is absorbed by concrete... drywall, plant tissue etc and re radiated as heat in some measure.
keep in mind... you can build carbon trays for conventional air handlers. mixed flow fans deal with static pressure well... but not as well as a legit squirrel cage type blower.

a 1" carbon tray with proper pelleted vapor phase activated carbon in a v or w shape would probably produce at least .25" of static pressure at conventional face velocities around 4-500fpm.

you can enlarge the filters as much as you like... but these blowers handle around half an inch static pressure with ease. additional duct work presents additional surface area. additional surface area will accumulate additional heat if not placed within the conditioned space.

again, id encourage you to refer to the ASHRAE fundementals. if i recall right, a single occupant sitting at his desk typing or what ever... produces only like... 200btuh.

people working out, like in a gym is more than double that i think. plus you get the latent heat from them sweating into dry air.

Admittedly I did so on purpose. I operated under the (perhaps false?) paradigm that a slightly over sized AC will operate more efficiently and experience less wear than a exactly or slightly undersized AC system.

Water cooling has my interest because of the apparent modularity and relative ease of use. Keeping the refrigerant in the self contained chiller, leaving me with the task of pumping the chilled water to the desired location. A skill set that is far more developed for me.

So forgive me while I digest all this and try to catchup. In the mean time do you have any links to any journals that utilized watercooling or had a highly efficient cooling system?

Any recommended brands too look at for equipment? Would a traditional ductless AC system be more efficient at my scale?

Thank you sir

 

[queequeg152]

That's where this thread comes in. Do you have any handy links bookmarked that would be a good start?

not really, sorry. i bought some books a while back... i like to have reference material from which i can dive back into when i have concenrs about something.

to that end i bought a text book a while back, perhaps you would like it too.

refrigeration and air conditioning technology by whitman johnson etc.

i got the 6th edition for like 50 bucks on ebay.

i also read technical bulletins from carriers website and junk like that.

i also got a section 608 card... which was my first foray into hvac. id highly reccomend a 608 card to anyone... its easy as shit and a good little bump of hvac knowlage.

A drain to waste system wouldn't be a good choice for my situation. My municipal water supply is provided by the same source as the electrical power. The later being significantly cheaper and in greater supply.

A geoloop is the least desirable due to the setup. Rock, lots of very big rocks past the 1' mark. It's a nightmare to dig even with equipment.

Depending on the size I could probably get away with either a cooling tower or some sort of evaporative setup. Ambient humidity during the summer months is ~15-25%. A geoloop is the least desirable due to the setup. Rock, lots of very big rock past the 1' mark. It's a nightmare to dig even with equipment.

an evaporative cooler would be huge AND waste alot of water... i forgot to mention that. it would waste less water than just wasting it down a drain, but it would waste water none the less. excess heat would be rejected to the air as latent heat.

i cannot offer any practical advice on this... its an area ive never been interested in or ever thought of exploring.

id suggest that you simply research chiller evaporation pads...

sorry.

from what i reme

With regards to what? I'm sorry, still very much a novice to HVAC.

with regard to how much water flow you need to adequatly remove the heat pumped into the condensing unit heat exchanger.

that figure is based on STP conditions... 70 degrees, standard air pressure etc.

btw, i just went back, and it turns out its closer to 2 cfm per ton, though it varies with the efficiency of the unit.

Do you happen to know of a good example of a proper sealed room hvac system? Something about the same scale as I'm working with(14'x8'x8')?

2.4kw for lighting.
0.2kw for circulation fans(if necessary)
0.1kw for misc monitoring equipment, automation, solenoids, ect.

So maybe a grand total of 2.7kw of power total, 3kw max if I put a veg tent in the same space.

sealed is a vague term. basically all home hvac systems are supposedly sealed. there is really nothing different about what you are doing here.

you have outlined your heat gains from equipment and occupancy etc. but you have still not outlined your heat gain from the environment.

you mention a basement. thats great... it will probably be very low. but id suggest doing it anyway... for no other reason than experiance.

if you are strongly DIY oriented like myself. leaning a proper manual J will yield huge dividends next time your or a friend/family member needs a new hvac system... most hvac techs are utterly clueless to proper heat gain calcs.

Do you have a good resource for conducting such a calculation? A list of equations and a basic example, something like that?

What would you recommend over traditional oscilating fans and ceiling fans? Bearing in mind that I do plan too supplement CO2 since this is a sealed room.

for conducting a manual J calculation i reccomend that you buy the ABRIDGED manual J calculation hand book by hank something.

i bought it used... all beat up and ugly for like 40 bucks a long time ago, you can do the same.... or you can get a pirated copy on teh internets.

like i said, i like physical reference material that i can refer to whenever.

http://www.amazon.com/Manual-Reside...=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1436290055&sr=1-1


try to get one with the cd's still in the back of the book... they have little tutorials and shit.

regarding ocilating fans.

i never said that ceiling fans would not work, only that i do not know.

they might very well work just fine.

if i were in your place... i would rough in the electrical for the ceiling fans, but design the hvac around a constant on air handler with higher velocity registers... perhaps drum louvers directed down onto the lighting footprint. i would have the duct lower... probably 2-3 feet above the lighting.

there are sections in the ASHRAE fundamentals that discuss stratification extensively.

Admittedly I did so on purpose. I operated under the (perhaps false?) paradigm that a slightly over sized AC will operate more efficiently and experience less wear than a exactly or slightly undersized AC system.

with the exception of VRF systems. oversizing tends to kill dehumidification ability and INCREASE wear on components like the compressor.

Water cooling has my interest because of the apparent modularity and relative ease of use. Keeping the refrigerant in the self contained chiller, leaving me with the task of pumping the chilled water to the desired location. A skill set that is far more developed for me.

yes water cooling is incredibly modular. one of its most compelling use cases in residential construction... is in old building retrofits.

instead of running high velocity ducts all around a house... which is a huge PITA in homes not designed for ductwork. instead of this... one simply plumbs in a 2" chiller line... branches it off to where ever a remote air handler is required ... and bam you have an ancient stone clad home with air conditioning.

residential chiller equipment is insanely expensive... more expensive than the VRF Mitsubishi equipment.

by in large the chiller equipment you see available is not efficient equipment. its almost always just 13-15 seer equipment retrofitted with plate or tube shell heat exchangers.

this equipment will be less efficient than a good mitsubishi system.

when we start talking about three phase equipment...with 100's of tons of capacity, pretty much all of it becomes staged centrifugal chiller systems with lovely online monitoring.

there just isnt any real good chiller equipment on the residential scale that is anywhere near affordable.

chillers tend to scale upwards... with the most efficient centrifugal chillers being the MASSIVE scale ones... bigger than a smart car... 100's of tons.

there are a number of reasons to go for a chiller plant verses a set of package units...efficiency is really only one piece of the equation.

you also get much smaller wasted space, with chill water pipes taking up less space than 60" trunk lines. you also get very very good modularity with excellent efficiency in partial load conditions.

So forgive me while I digest all this and try to catchup. In the mean time do you have any links to any journals that utilized watercooling or had a highly efficient cooling system?

Any recommended brands too look at for equipment? Would a traditional ductless AC system be more efficient at my scale?

Thank you sir

at your scale a regular forced air system is your best bet. if you can afford a good VRF system then go for that. it will be more efficient than some sort of hacked together chiller system from a shitty hydro company.

keep in mind though... a minisplit cassett cannot be used with good media air cleaners or duct work.

if you do go with a casset you will probably want those ceiling fans from the get go as they do not push much air. they are very low power blowers... part of the reason why they are more efficient.

I personally would just install a cheap dead simple 15 seer split system with a variable speed horizontal air handler. it would be a more involved install however, with brazing and refrigerant charging etc.

 

[r2k]

you are over estimating the head load generated by electric motors... i highly reccomend that you dig into the ASHRAE fundemental documents and look for the load estimation tables governing motors. im not familair with them off hand, but i can tell you that they are NOT 1:1 watts in to heat out. they might be close, but not nearly as close as lighting loads are.

QQ - I believe in all your other writing and knowledge, but I have to raise a hand to question this one about motor wattage and heat conversion. To quote wikipedia, the law of conservation of energy states that the total energy of an isolated system remains constant—it is said to be conserved over time.

I would need a consistent explanation as to where the extra heat energy comes from to believe the statement about motors. We aren't talking about compressing a gas or evaporation or adiabatic cooling/heating, and there are no nuclear reactions occurring in a grow zone, so where would the heat come from? A simple question that needs to be answered or there can not be additional heating. "Watts In" must equal "Watts out" if temperature is to remain steady.

Conservation of energy - Not just a good idea, it's the Law!!

light that is captured 100% within a space is said to convert almost 100% to heat because all that radiated energy is absorbed by concrete... drywall, plant tissue etc and re radiated as heat in some measure.

Exactly! light energy is (for all intents and purposes) reflected around and around until it is absorbed and converts to heat. A tiny fraction of a percentage point of light energy is converted to chemical energy and doesn't have to be removed, but it doesn't really matter much for cooling calculations.

-r2k

 

[MrBelvedere]

So I'm interested in setting up a sealed, water cooled room. I had a few questions that haven't been answered so far in the threads I've been reading. I have 240v, and 120v available. Trying to keep everything as energy efficient as possible.

1: Has anyone ever hear of, or used and chillers from 'penguin chillers'? Their 1hp chiller looks like it would be a nice unit for the price.

2: Who makes the most power efficient water chiller in the 2hp or less range?

3: Who makes the most power efficient air handler(in terms of CFM per watt) for ambient cooling? I think Somewhere in the neighborhood of 2000CFM. I was considering A pair of 8 inch hyperfans with an icebox and a carbon filter on opposite sides of the room would be adequate combined with a efficient 52" ceiling fan. The hyperfans would move 1400cfm and draw less than 150w on high speed and the ceiling fan can move up too 6200cfm. Any other options such as wall mounted Air handlers?

4: Who makes the most efficient dehumidifier in the 70-80ppd range?

5: Would it be more efficient to run two pumps, one to circulate the reservoir water through the water chiller and another to circulate chilled water through the room? Or is it better to just use one pump?

Thanks for your time.

I'm sorry I'm a little confuse what you want, but if you want to replace a regular air conditioner with a "swamp cooler" (Evaporative water cooler) it only makes sense if your humidity is incredibly low like desert conditions. Otherwise they're not going to be as efficient as a regular air-conditioner.

Scroll down to the bottom of this page and you can see how a chart showing how swamp coolers are incredibly more efficient when there's extremely low humidity and very hot ambient air.

Sorry if I misunderstood what you're trying to do

 

[queequeg152]

QQ - I believe in all your other writing and knowledge, but I have to raise a hand to question this one about motor wattage and heat conversion. To quote wikipedia, the law of conservation of energy states that the total energy of an isolated system remains constant—it is said to be conserved over time.

I would need a consistent explanation as to where the extra heat energy comes from to believe the statement about motors. We aren't talking about compressing a gas or evaporation or adiabatic cooling/heating, and there are no nuclear reactions occurring in a grow zone, so where would the heat come from? A simple question that needs to be answered or there can not be additional heating. "Watts In" must equal "Watts out" if temperature is to remain steady.

Conservation of energy - Not just a good idea, it's the Law!!
-r2k

im not a super physics guy, but ill think about this and get back to you when ever. ive got work to do this afternoon.

off the top of my head though, id suggest that the work and heat are interchangeable as means to add energy to some system ... meaning if i do work pushing water up a pipe wholly contained inside some perfect system... the total energy of the whole system is no different than if i were to just add the equivalent amount of heat to the water without pushing it upwards against gravity.

likewise i would think any pump should be able to do work without adding 100% of the energy as heat.
the question is... whether or not circulating air in a closed room is equivalent to the classic joule experiment... the mixing paddle inside the insulated vessle.

im just going off of what i recall reading way back when i looked into the motor tables.

the lighting tables suprised me when i dug into them... the suprise being the almost 100% watts electrical in to btuh out.

 

[queequeg152]

so it turns you are correct. ill post some stuff from ch. 18 out of the ashrae fundamentals.

i was thinking about this on my ladder today... and it makes complete sense, what with the ground state of any current of air being stillness +heat, provided it cannot escape the hypothetical perfect insulated container... i just thought that motors... with the noise and electromagnetism would produce less heat than a light fixture.

here is what i found in chapter 18

INTERNAL HEAT GAINS
Internal heat gains from people, lights, motors, appliances, and
equipment can contribute the majority of the cooling load in a modern
building. As building envelopes have improved in response to
more restrictive energy codes, internal loads have increased because
of factors such as increased use of computers and the advent of
dense-occupancy spaces (e.g., call centers). Internal heat gain calculation
techniques are identical for both heat balance (HB) and radiant
time series (RTS) cooling-load calculation methods, so internal heat
gain data are presented here independent of calculation methods.

ELECTRIC MOTORS
Instantaneous sensible heat gain from equipment operated by
electric motors in a conditioned space is calculated as
qem = 2545(P/EM)FUMFLM (2)
where
qem = heat equivalent of equipment operation, Btu/h
P = motor power rating, hp
EM = motor efficiency, decimal fraction <1.0
FUM = motor use factor, 1.0 or decimal fraction <1.0
FLM = motor load factor, 1.0 or decimal fraction <1.0
2545 = conversion factor, Btu/h·hp
The motor use factor may be applied when motor use is known to
be intermittent, with significant nonuse during all hours of operation
(e.g., overhead door operator). For conventional applications, its
value is 1.0.
The motor load factor is the fraction of the rated load delivered
under the conditions of the cooling load estimate. In Equation (2), it
is assumed that both the motor and driven equipment are in the conditioned
space. If the motor is outside the space or airstream,
qem = 2545PFUMFLM (3)
When the motor is inside the conditioned space or airstream but
the driven machine is outside,
(4)
Equation (4) also applies to a fan or pump in the conditioned
space that exhausts air or pumps fluid outside that space.
Table 4 gives minimum efficiencies and related data representative
of typical electric motors from ASHRAE Standard 90.1-2007.
If electric motor load is an appreciable portion of cooling load, the
motor efficiency should be obtained from the manufacturer. Also,
depending on design, maximum efficiency might occur anywhere
between 75 to 110% of full load; if under- or overloaded, efficiency
could vary from the manufacturer’s listing.
Overloading or Underloading
Heat output of a motor is generally proportional to motor load,
within rated overload limits. Because of typically high no-load
motor current, fixed losses, and other reasons, FLM is generally
assumed to be unity, and no adjustment should be made for underloading
or overloading unless the situation is fixed and can be
accurately established, and reduced-load efficiency data can be
obtained from the motor manufacturer.
Radiation and Convection
Unless the manufacturer’s technical literature indicates otherwise,
motor heat gain normally should be equally divided between
radiant and convective components for the subsequent cooling load
calculations.

Fans that circulate air through HVAC systems add energy to the
system through the following processes:
• Increasing velocity and static pressure adds kinetic and potential
energy
• Fan inefficiency in producing airflow and static pressure adds
sensible heat (fan heat) to the airflow
• Inefficiency of motor and drive dissipates sensible heat
The power required to provide airflow and static pressure can be
determined from the first law of thermodynamics with the following
equation:
PA = 0.000157Vp
where
PA = air power, hp
V = flow rate, cfm
p = pressure, in. of water
at standard air conditions with air density = 0.075 lb/ft3 built into the
multiplier 0.000157. The power necessary at the fan shaft must
account for fan inefficiencies, which may vary from 50 to 70%. This
may be determined from
PF = PA /ηF
where
PF = power required at fan shaft, hp
ηF = fan efficiency, dimensionless

The power necessary at the input to the fan motor must account for
fan motor inefficiencies and drive losses. Fan motor efficiencies
generally vary from 80 to 95%, and drive losses for a belt drive are
3% of the fan power. This may be determined from
PM = (1 + DL) PF /EM ED
where
PM = power required at input to motor, hp
ED = belt drive efficiency, dimensionless
EM = fan motor efficiency, dimensionless
PF = power required at fan shaft, hp
DL = drive loss, dimensionless
Almost all the energy required to generate airflow and static pressure
is ultimately dissipated as heat within the building and HVAC
system; a small portion is discharged with any exhaust air. Generally,
it is assumed that all the heat is released at the fan rather than
dispersed to the remainder of the system. The portion of fan heat
released to the airstream depends on the location of the fan motor
and drive: if they are within the airstream, all the energy input to the
fan motor is released to the airstream. If the fan motor and drive are
outside the airstream, the energy is split between the airstream and
the room housing the motor and drive. Therefore, the following
equations may be used to calculate heat generated by fans and
motors:
If motor and drive are outside the airstream,
qf s = 2545PF
qfr = 2545(PM – PF )
If motor and drive are inside the airstream,
qf s = 2545PM
qfr = 0.0
where
PF = power required at fan shaft, hp
PM = power required at input to motor, hp
qf s = heat release to airstream, Btu/h
qfr = heat release to room housing motor and drive, Btu/h
2545 = conversion factor, Btu/h·hp
Supply airstream temperature rise may be determined from psychrometric
formulas or Equation (9).
Variable- or adjustable-frequency drives (VFDs or AFDs) often
drive fan motors in VAV air-handling units. These devices release
heat to the surrounding space. Refer to manufacturers’ data for heat
released or efficiencies. The disposition of heat released is determined
by the drive’s location: in the conditioned space, in the return
air path, or in a nonconditioned equipment room. These drives, and
other electronic equipment such as building control, data processing,
and communications devices, are temperature sensitive, so the
rooms in which they are housed require cooling, frequently yearround.

Pumps
Calculating heat gain from pumps is addressed in the section on
Electric Motors. For pumps serving hydronic systems, disposition
of heat from the pumps depends on the service. For chilled-water
systems, energy applied to the fluid to generate flow and pressure
becomes a chiller load. For condenser water pumps, pumping
energy must be rejected through the cooling tower. The magnitude
of pumping energy relative to cooling load is generally small.

 

[r2k]

off the top of my head though, id suggest that the work and heat are interchangeable as means to add energy to some system ... meaning if i do work pushing water up a pipe wholly contained inside some perfect system... the total energy of the whole system is no different than if i were to just add the equivalent amount of heat to the water without pushing it upwards against gravity.

Yes, this is correct. Work is measured in Joules. Heat energy added to a system is measured in Joules. Energy is measured in joules.

likewise i would think any pump should be able to do work without adding 100% of the energy as heat.
the question is... whether or not circulating air in a closed room is equivalent to the classic joule experiment... the mixing paddle inside the insulated vessle.

Yes, there are many ways to put energy into a system. You can add energy to a system in many ways. Spinning a top, lifting a mass vertically, increasing the temperature of something, are all ways to increase energy in a system (there are others).

Yes, circulating air in a room will add energy in the motion of air as it goes in circles. It will eventually dissapate into heat as the air slows down from running into other air modules. It doesn't add much because air doesn't weigh much so it won't take much energy to make air move fast.

the lighting tables suprised me when i dug into them... the suprise being the almost 100% watts electrical in to btuh out.

Yes, but energy must always go somewhere. You can "hide" energy by evaporating water inside a room. The temperature drops but the room contains the same amount of energy. Condensing water out of a room (or a hurricane) releases heat energy. This released energy is what powers hurricanes.

-r2k