Question about PH buffers and adjusters.

[StarGatherer]

Im curious since I ran into this issue before.Please help me to figure this out.A "buffer" is an additive to the soil that helps in the increase or lowering of the ph in soils for example using lime in an acidic soil to help regulate over time.An "adjuster" is a quick fix additive to the water which is used to try and adjust the ph. For example using vinegar to lower a high ph water back to target range.I ran into this issue a while back when I used a bit too much peat moss in my soil mix.My well water is exactly 7.2ph and I usually use a touch of lemon juice to bring it into the 6.8 range.The issue I ran into was lockout because the soil runoff was in the mid 5's.What i found was no amount of "adjusting" the water was really helping me and the peat moss was winning.The soil was draining well and would dry about every three days and I was only using "adjusted" water(sodium bicarbonate was all I had) at about 7.5ph to try to counter the acid.My runoff came up a bit but was still in the 6.0 to 6.2 range.I know I was slowly causing a salt buildup using the baking soda so I didnt want to push it too far.In the end I still grew them out and had a little decent smoke smoke but it was a fight the whole damn time.Im not a pro but I have had some succesful grows in the past.I use lime in my soil mixes and I am slowly learning more about organics and soil mixes.I am curious because I never really found an answer to the question "What adjuster can I use that will situate itself in the soil and act as a buffer over time?".I ask this question because one of my good friends is dealing with this exact same issue now peat moss and all.Im afraid that his situation is worse because his soil doesnt drain well.I hate to tell him to transplant into new soils but thats what I believe he has to do.Mainly because of the water retention.Altho I am curious if you can "Buffer" a soil that is already infiltrated with roots.I have searched forums but everyone seems very vague on this issue.

 

[Amber Trich]

Testing the runoff water doesnt really give you an accurate measure of the ph of your soil.

You need to know the ph of your soil. The control wizard soil ph meter for around $60.

Are you using RO water? RO/low ppm water has very litttle effect on the ph of your soil mix.

Bottled spring water on the other hand would have a strong buffering effect on the ph of your soil.

Ive never heard of anyone using baking soda as an adjuster but we've used dolomite lime with success. I think you are supposed to let the limed water sit overnight before use.

So....
What is your water source?
What is your soil ph?

You should definetly read up on anything by the rev from skunk mag. Read about his True Living Organics(TLO) and you will find lots of info on ph buffering and soil mixes.

 

[StarGatherer]

Thanks Amber.If I had 60$ to throw around for toys I prolly would but I have other priorties.Maybe somewhere down the road(Speaking of roads I gotta buy tires).No, I dont use RO water .Its good old well water under about 150 ft of stone.(Not public water but the good tasting kind ) As for PPM if I had that equipment I would have bought it.I use a chemical tester for my testing needs(helps keep my guppies alive).Bottled spring water around here is around 6.2 to 6.4 around here.I actually use pulverized lime mixed into my initial soil mixtures with much success for stability.I was just asking if anyone had any success with acidic or alkaline soils by adjusting the water or if its a short term based thing.For example If you add potassium hydroxide to a soil that has a ph of say 5.8 will you just up the ph for a day or 2 and have to keep fighting it to maintain.In an instance like acidic peat moss would it just keep trying to revert back to the 5.8 ph.Its a question I wondered about.Since that happened to me I have since limed my soils beforehand.I really ask for my friend, he asked me and im not too sure.I remember it being a real pita constantly checking the feed and runoff,something I rarely do anymore.he has one of those fancy schmancy tester and its not really helping him.He will learn as I did i guess.....Here is a pic of my last grow from using prelimed soil

And here is the one I fought with about 2 years ago

I appreciate your help Amber and I prolly should have posted this in Indoor soil growing room.But I figure alot of sick plants stem from PH issues so i posted here.I was just wondering if anyone had any luck adjusting a soil for a long term ph change.Id like to help my friend but as I said before I think the water retention will kill his before he can adjust it.He said it takes his like 4 to five days to dry.I can just picture the root rot and heat going on in those pots of his.I told him his only chance would be to repot into a better mix.

 

[Weedhound]

Then pull it and move on. The plant is sick and needs special care. How to fix your plant for free and with no effort on your "friends" part? I can't help you there. The plant looks crappy and you're worried about a problem you don't even have yet; and most likely won't if the plant keeps going the way it is. Actually I change my mind there; improve your "friends" drainage from his pots as well; then neither one of you will have to worry about root rot.

Flush the plant with ph correct water or transplant it into something larger or both. At the end of flushing your ph going in should be very close to the ph of the water coming out the bottom. Most likely your issue IS ph and is most likely being lowered by the rootboundness of the plant itself. These are all just guesses but that's the only info I've been given to work with.

But you might have better things to do.

good luck.

 

[StarGatherer]

Wow, i musta posted wrong forum.I dont have a problem per se.And prolly cause I woke and toked this morning I ramble without being to clear.I dont know what my friends total conditions are and can only guess that he is going thru the same thing that I went thru 2 years ago.So im half guessing at his situation too.I would like to know what mix and how much of what he used in it.It just reminded me of a scenario I went thru and that brought up the old question in my head.Does the soil have a set memory depending on the substrate involved or can it be adjusted and held at sustainable ph levels without a full transplant?In his case im sure that 4 to 5 days is a pretty long time to retain water.I cant recall a mix of mine holding water longer than three days.Ill visit him this weekend and try to get a pic and look at what he has going on.But for now all I can tell him is to transplant to a better draining soil.As for my question about adjusting and maintaining ph levels I guess I was asking if anyone had any success with the soil holding ph or if it became a constant watch.Im not so much asking for help(Altho i appreciate anyones good intentions) but asking about other ppls tactics in a similar situation and what successes or failures they have had.I am not trying to be facecious or cryptic by talking for my "Friend" I only know what he told me over the phone about his situation.If he had a PC he could ask you guys himself. My current mix is neutral organic from the local nursery with bloodmeal, perlite,and about 5% pulverized lime.I mix it up and let it sit for about a month before using.Same thing for final transplant I just add bone meal to the final potting.With the Lime added the soil generally stays around 6.5 to 6.9.So all i have to test is my feed water.I only really check runoff if I think I have a problem.I wish my friend had asked me before he started but my guess is he is using the same soil his wife uses for her houseplants.He said he was using about a third peat moss which sent alarms off in my head.I just wondered if others having been down that road had any real success.

 

[HeadyPete]

Buffer solution, a solution which reduces the change of pH upon addition of small amounts of acid or base, or upon dilution

In the case of tap water, calcium and magnesium are the buffers in the water. They slow down the change when you acid acid ph down. RO water changes readily because it contains no buffering minerals.

Lime in your soil will counteract the effects of acid added until either there is no lime left or the amount of acid is greater than that needed to counter the lime. The lime, in this case acts as a buffer. Lime is added to counteract the acidic nature of peat moss (Ph approx 3-4) or the soil would be too acidic to grow in.

Adjusters do just what they say...adjust.

 

[StarGatherer]

Thanks HP.(note to self: bong hits and beers dont mix well with writing for me).That makes sense to me.And reading more of the forums I see ppl have used several different adjusters from lemon concentrate to sulfuric acid to crushed shells with varied successes.Talked to my friend again today and helped him get together a new mix.So by this weekend i will see his setup.Apparently he was using a heavy mushroom soil with alot of peat moss and nothing to break up the soil like perlite.Ill give him a small bag of lime from my shed too.I was confused by semantics i believe.

 

[HeadyPete]

You're welcome. I know what you mean about typing in warp drive......

Careful with that mushroom mix, it can be too strong for young plants. Sometimes it gets salted to kill the mushrooms and that would be bad for weed. A good mix like promix with extra perlite and mushroom mixed in would be a better mix. You would still need to feed after with liquids.

 

[Weedhound]

Wow....you guys are much more soil informed then I. I retract my answer and wish you both of luck.....I'm pretty much a soil noob.

 

[StarGatherer]

Thanks again guys.Im curious about chemical memory in soils? im guessing that adjusters only hold for a while and that the chemical states of substrates will eventually revert back to their original state.Even well Buffered soil can over time revert to its original Ph over time pending the buffer and amount therein.I only started growing about 7 years ago and found these forums a while back.The amount of information on here is definately overload at times.I have definately learned alot from just lurking around a bit.But looking for a thorough discussion of PH and soils in the search was looking for a needle in a haystack and figured I could use my pals situation to spur a enlightening discussion about the effects of different adjusters and bufferers in this forum.I honestly believe that a majority of the issues that are brought up in the infirmary are from Ph issues or originated from Ph issues to begin with.A good discussion on this topic would help alot of peeps.Of course there will always be the person who wants answers without reading.I intend to take my pal a my copy of Cervantes's book.And Weedhound, no biggie, I couldnt tell you what an airstone even looks like or what ebb and flow even mean.I do wanna try Hydro one day but im tight for cash and as a rule of thumb i dont sell.I share with friends and family.

 

[HeadyPete]

Hi guys. I think you understand pretty well, SG. The acids and the bases react with each other and combine into new compounds over time. Also all the nutrients you add, minerals in water all add into the mix. Feasting on all this material is microbes, bacteria, fungi, etc...and their secretions are simpler versions of the nutrients you added. The excretement is acidic, so that will lower ph over time. The more food available, the bigger the "microherd" and the more acidic byproduct. All this shifts back and forth depending on all the above mentioned factors.

Lime added to soil is alkaline and breaks down slowly, counteracting the acidic content. It is mainly added to peat mixes because peat moss is acidic (3-4ph). The lime counteracts the peat and brings the balanced ph of the whole mix into the zone most plants like (6.3-6.8)

Hydroponics operates lower ph (5.5 -5.9) because for many reasons nutrients are best available at that ph. Mineral ferts like HG, FloraNova, BC Bud etc are not kind to microbes. There is some life, but not like soil. There are new 'hydro-organic" nutes that should satisfy the organic grower. Hydro allows the grower to have individual control of all parts of growing a plant and tweaking it for the plants. It takes experience and skill to be successful. It can be pricey as well. There are pumps and tubing or trays and tables etc.

If that is your thing and you are mechanically inclined, then a hydro system can grower bigger buds, faster. If you are new to growing, soil gives you room for error that hydro does not, until you can pull off successful crops.

Personally I like coco, which I hand water with organic nutes, molasses for cal and mag and other good stuff. Technically my system would be a drain to waste hydro-organic system. If I watered more often they would grow faster/bigger, but at every other day it's a chore already, and an automated recirc setup is not possible, for many reasons.