Question about foxtailing in week 8

[GeraldsFinest]

Hi guys,

I’m currently about to start week 9 with 8 GG4 phenos.
this is the second run with this strain and the first round went stellar with huge sticky buds. This round however things are going slightly different. The last flower cycle with these plants I was running 4 double ended hps at full power in 10x10 tent. I have a mini split to control temps. lights were roughly 12-20 inches from canopy last time with no issues.

However this time I’ve since switched over to 4 650w LEDS. The lights are about 24” from the canopy and I’m starting to see what I would call a heavy amount of foxtailing happening on 3 to 4 of the plants. The current temp of the room at lights on is around 73 degrees with a RH of about 35-50. I mean it’s chilly in there and there’s no way that heat is causing the issue. I see zero light bleaching and if the lights were causing the issue you’d think I’d see bleaching to go along with the fox. I did recent drop humidity to around 30 for a few days to promote “trich production” so I’m not sure if that could cause it. Also I’ve cut water back quite a bit to avoid any mold issues. They get a big drink at lights on and then 2 more small 15 second waterings through out the day.

if anyone could chime in with some knowledge I’d really appreciate it. I think it’s too late for this run but even if it’s saves me from doing it again would be sweet.

 

[HempKat]

Personally I see nothing wrong with your buds. They might not be quite as nice as your previous batch but they still look nice and frosty. What you're calling foxtailling isn't really all that pronounced in the pictures you posted. Since you're in week 9 I doubt it will get much more pronounced then it is now. If I had to make a guess at the cause it's because you switched from HPS to LED but you pretty much had to probably given the time of year. You didn't mention the wattage of the HPS so I can't comment much on the difference in wattage other then to say that even if the wattage is virtually the same LED vs HPS doesn't have quite the same penetrating power. Wattage is a measure of brightness but it's not necessarily a measure of power. Plants respond more to the power potential of a light then they do the brightness. Also you have the lights further from the canopy then you did with the HPS. If anything since LED's tend to run cooler you should have been able to have them at the same distance or closer since there should be less heat.

Really though the buds look very nice to me and I would be perfectly happy if I were to buy a bag of buds like that.

 

[draztik]

If your LEDs have a dimmer knob, dim them. If you don't have a dimmer raise them as high as you can, if you can't raise them find a way to diffuse the lights. LED's are nothing like HPS, CMH, MH light, most of the rules applied to those lights do not apply to LEDs they are a different beast. LEDs and coco is also different than LEDs and soil. Light is what is driving the chemistry of the plant, LED spectrum will drive the plants chemistry in a different way than HPS spectrum.

 

[Loc Dog]

I run real GG4 and only time it ever foxtails on me, is light stress. Not sure about seed variants, but have heard genetics and fertilizer stress can cause it also.

 

[f-e]

Having another push, instead of finishing, is usually a sign of high light levels. Enough to convince the plant that summer isn't ending. It's not desirable. Having plants that think growing some more is a good idea. Where you wanted their last push to be filling up and frosting over

Choking plants with feed can hold them back until the feed is reduced at the end. At which time, they can try and have a late push.

 

[Loc Dog]

Having another push, instead of finishing, is a sign of high light levels. Enough to convince the plant that summer isn't ending. It's not desirable. Having plants that think growing some more is a good idea. Where you wanted their last push to be filling up and frosting over

I just notice mine which are at 5 weeks into flower are starting to foxtail. LED's are 2 foot above. Think PAR is at 740 but will confirm tomorrow. Should I back off the power supplies a little? Thought less than 1000 should not be a problem.

 

[f-e]

I just notice mine which are at 5 weeks into flower are starting to foxtail. LED's are 2 foot above. Think PAR is at 740 but will confirm tomorrow. Should I back off the power supplies a little? Thought less than 1000 should not be a problem.

At 5 weeks they are in full swing. It wouldn't be the afterthought I was talking about. In days of old, we would think heat from the lamps, but could of been wrong and it's light related.

740 is quite high. Some plants may not like that. Which ones, has not really been catalogued. It's pushing quite hard though.

 

[GeraldsFinest]

Yes they are definitely making a last push for sure. The plants that are foxtailing I thought were pretty much done growing but now they’re still pushing out white pistols from the tails. To clarify I had 1000w last time as high as they’d go. This time it’s 650w led strapped to the top of the tent so they’re at full height. I have noticed the buds sizes are much smaller but the quality frost wise is better than HPS . They also seem a little less dense having me leaning towards the lights being too high from canopy. But the foxtailing is saying otherwise. I’m just keeping the phenos that aren’t tailing and see what happens on the next round. Maybe I’ll try and keep them close and rise as plants tell me. Should I turn off a couple lights?

 

[GeraldsFinest]

Now that I think about it it’s only happening under the two nextlight mega’s which are 650w. The HLG 550/650 have none

 

[Loc Dog]

Don't they have some way to dim the lights? If not, might want to figure out a way to do that. Just be safe and consult someone good with electronics so you do not start a fire (using dimmer not rated same as light).

FYI - Beware of cheap power strips and plugging too much into them. Have had them melt way before the circuit breaker would go off.

 

[GeraldsFinest]

2 lights a dimmer, 2 do not. Unfortunately 2 lights that are contributing to the issue don’t have a dimmer. But yes I can install one just need to consult someone as you said

 

[Loc Dog]

Mine wound up being too high of nutrients PPM and too low of PH. PPM of runoff was double to triple and PH was one full number low. PAR was 450 - 650.

Going back to mid bloom feed for 2 weeks, for a grow length of 75 days instead of 58 - 60 like it is supposed to be. Will be micro managing feed and runoff from now on. People that told me to use coir always said to ignore runoff readings.

 

[GeraldsFinest]

Yeah I check runoff twice a week. The weird this is that the issue didn’t started until after I started flushing. I have been flushing with 60 degree water for about 4/5 days maybe that has something to do with it

 

[Loc Dog]

2 lights a dimmer, 2 do not. Unfortunately 2 lights that are contributing to the issue don’t have a dimmer. But yes I can install one just need to consult someone as you said

You could try running it past the manufacturer, who would probably know if any issues using dimmer. Mine are COB style LED's and ballasts have built in dimmer.

 

[HempKat]

Yeah I check runoff twice a week. The weird this is that the issue didn’t started until after I started flushing. I have been flushing with 60 degree water for about 4/5 days maybe that has something to do with it

If you're checking your runoff and the ph is good then that points back to the lights and since you say the ones doing it are the ones without the dimmer then that's another sign it's the lights. Now if your ph is different during flush then before the flush there's a chance the ph is responsible but based on what you've said so far that seems unlikely. I mean if that was off I would think you would have mentioned that and since you've run this strain before without issue that tells me you know what you're doing. Also I apologize somewhat for my first response where I suggested the lights might be too far away. I've never worked with LED's before and I made the mistake of thinking they were basically the same as CFL's on light output. I did some research since I made that post and discovered I was wrong.

Given that you've now said this is only happening under 2 of your lights and they happen to be the ones without a dimmer that would be the place I would focus first. Now that's based on how I tend to troubleshoot. I focus first on what seems most likely and only after I rule that out do I begin to look at things that seem less likely. Too often people just start messing with every possible variable and when you do that you potentially solve one problem while at the same time create another and it can make it look like the actual problem wasn't the problem.

Another thing you could try since you're in the flushing stage is to flush with colder water. I am suggesting that based on the idea that the plants are being tricked by the lights that it's earlier in the grow cycle then it is. If you used colder water to flush that might help to get them to think it's time to finish rather then push new growth. Also I've hear that flushing with colder water can help increase trichome production. I should clarify though I've never actually flushed with cold water to deal with foxtailling or to increase trichome production, I'm just using second had information to think a bit outside the box.

Oh and while I apologize for suggesting the lights might be too far away I still stand by my comment that they really don't look that bad and that I would be pleased if I purchased buds that look like yours.

 

[f-e]

The Mega may not have much more light. I see two figures on the net, 2.4umol and 2.15umol. I imagine the hlg is claiming 2.8 putting the lights within perhaps 5% of each other.

I didn't see the manufacturers website. So can't say if it can be dimmed.

 

[GeraldsFinest]

HempKat no worries man and no need to apologize. LEDs are new to me also and you aren’t really wrong either. You can for sure bleach or burn plants with high wattage LEDs if they are too close. And yes i did the cold water thing for a bit but they are almost done now so I’ve just been giving room temp water. And yeah these lights are very close to each other output wise so it’s doesn’t make sense why the plants under the Nextlights would do it and not the HLG. Only thing I can say is maybe they don’t like the particular spectrum that the Nextlights put out. It’s just funny because I spent a bunch of money on the higher wattage lights and the best looking fattest buds I have in the tent are the ones under the lowest wattage light (HLG 550) those plants are however directly under the mini split. Who knows I’ll just keep on trucking and hopefully figure it out next time. I will look into a dimmer too. Thanks guys for all the feedback I appreciate it

 

[flylowgethigh]

Is this "foxtailing"? 44 days, now at 11/13.

 

[f-e]

Is this "foxtailing"? 44 days, now at 11/13.

In the context of this thread, probably. 6.5weeks isn't typically a time to be changing the buds shape so dramatically. Such new growth, if it's 10 days from finishing, isn't on schedule. The entire bud isn't going to mature as a whole. Something isn't ideal. Heat/light/feeding/... It looks a bit vegetative to me. No desire to grow upwards. I'm guessing high light.

 

[flylowgethigh]

In the context of this thread, probably. 6.5weeks isn't typically a time to be changing the buds shape so dramatically. Such new growth, if it's 10 days from finishing, isn't on schedule. The entire bud isn't going to mature as a whole. Something isn't ideal. Heat/light/feeding/... It looks a bit vegetative to me. No desire to grow upwards. I'm guessing high light.

That is SB2 in the 2nd run. She was started 2 weeks after her sister SB, and had a rough childhood. So two weeks less veg, and flipped the same time as SB, shown here. Note the pistals have stopped on SB.: