Pyrethrum TR & Attain TR ?

[LsDmT]

So I have a somewhat major mite infestation (some decent webbing) on about 16 plants (~4 feet tall) in a 10x10x8 room.

I called up my local hydro shop and they advised to get both the products mentioned above. He said to start with the Pyrethrum and wait 2-3 days and hit them with Attain.

My question is this: what is the purpose of hitting them a second time with Attain? Does the Attain control the eggs while the Pyrethrum controls the adults?

BTW all these are still in veg and are about 2 weeks from going into veg.

I just wanted to verify with you guys and make sure I'm not just getting misinformation. So I ask you guys? What is the purpose of Attain 2-3 days after a Pyrethrum bomb? And will this combo ensure eradicating the eggs?

____________________________
My plan of action:
- seal off the room with tarp
- with a wet cloth gently wipe away as much webbing/mites as possible
- hit them with a pyrethrum 2oz fogger
- wait 2-3 days
- hit them with attain 2 oz fogger
____________________________

after this should I go back and gently give the plants a water bath?

any insight is much appreciated. I have never dealt with such a large infestation. I do not want to have to deal with mites during flower!

 

[SeaMaiden]

Seriously, they're telling you to use a product that's intended ONLY for use on ornamentals on a plant that's going to be ingested? They sold you a product that is labeled only for ornamental plants.

The treatment interval has to do with the spider mite reproduction phases, their eggs generally hatch every 3-5 days. There are other, much safer methods to deal with spider mites here. I strongly recommend finding a product that's at least approved for use on foodstuffs.

Did they tell you that you can spray with a mixture of 50/50 isopropyl alcohol and water (that's using 91% iso), applied every three days? That would be far safer, though certainly more work than a fogger, but if you're planning on physically wiping and/or dipping each plant, then spraying each plant with that won't be more work. Another product I like to use is JMS Stylet oil, it's a physical barrier that smothers them. I'm going to experiment with OxiDate on some plants with mites I received from a friend, will have to report back on that.

My recommendation is to only use products that are approved for use on plants that will be ingested. I personally am striving to keep what I use to strictly organic controls, with the least total environmental impact and, this is KEY, that have the least chance of creating resistance in pests like mites, which happen to have superior, unheard of, unbelievable abilities to transmogrify themselves and develop incredible resistance to a plethora of compounds.

Lavender extract/tea is another method of control, but I have not found success with it (had too much to treat and not enough lavender? mayhaps).

I just found this product. Can't say I would be happy to use it, but it's at least labeled for both food crops AND tobacco use.
http://www.fmccrop.com/grower/Products/Insecticides-Miticides/Brigade-2EC.aspx

 

[LsDmT]

I appreciate your caution in using these type of products but tbh i am not too worried. as I said these are still in veg state. these plants are for personal use so even if their is a small hazard healthwise i have no moral qualms about it.

i have used the organic methonds you mentioned above on smaller plants and they worked...for a few weeks but obviously they have came back 10 fold. the plants are so large now that I just need an efficient nuclear fogger to whipe these bastards out.

im not only trying to kill the mites on the plants but also any lingering ones on the walls/grounds.

besides - everything ive read states pyrethrum is safe on edibles

Pyrethrum TR - this simple, effective total release product gives growers protection against a wide range of insect pests, works fast, and is labelled for use on virtually every greenhouse crop, including edibles like vegetable & herb transplants. For quick knock-down, consider Pyrethrum TR as a quick fix during the spring rush. Treating an acre of greenhouse space can be done in 15 minutes!

 

[SeaMaiden]

You will do as you wish, but I had to caution regarding the Attain TR. Again, I strongly suggest that at the very least you use the best corollary to cannabis for treatments, and that would be tobacco. There is no way I would use, even on vegging plants, anything not labeled for plants that are to be ingested.

Remember also here that the active ingredient in the Attain (bifenthrin) is not simply pyrethrin/pyrethrum, it's a fourth generation pyrethroid product. Why are we moving to next generations...? I'd proffer a guess that it might be because overuse of pyrethroids has caused resistance. And resistance in mites is a very special thing, well documented. If you'd like me to share some of the science behind mites and their superpowers of resistance I would be happy to.

 

[LsDmT]

I took your advice and will not be using attain TR. I snipped off the locking tab on the pyrethrum bomb and did a quick 15 second spray in the ~10x10 room. It seemed to kill them all.

I now just want to get rid of the eggs. I have been scouring the nets looking for answers on how to kill the eggs before they hatch with no luck.

Any insight? If it is not possible to kill the eggs, in 3 days ill have to do another 15 second bomb of the pyrethrum.

I have never used the alcohol version before. I have 71% ISO alcohol. I have used safer soap and tobacco mixture with success but those were on smaller plants. It's going to be a large PITA to individually spray each leaf but if there is any organic way to kill the EGGS ill have to poney up!

I need these fuckers gone! They need to be in flower in 7 days max - getting way too large.

 

[slshemup]

best of using a quality miticide that strawberry growers use that being not sure where you are so the brand name varies from country to country but the active ingredient is abamectin its the best stuff to totally wipe out spider,two spotted,russet and broad mites plus most other mites and a few other bugs also its a organicaly derived product.one spray will kill mites and eggs as they hatch within 5 to 8 days it is not systemic though has a good residual effect make sure you spray the whole plants and especially under all the leaves and the whole room.i would never use pyrethium as some strains can be badly affected growth slows right down by it, also bifenthrin can slow down certain strains as well.

 

[slshemup]

the other thing i missed mentioning is when abamectin is mixed with water the spray has a shelf life of 3 months great money saver.you sometimes can buy small bottles of it from local hydro grow shops just remember to check that abamectin is the active ingredient.

 

[SeaMaiden]

Please, don't recommend people use such a toxic product on a plant they're going to ingest, and especially without cautions to use personal protective gear. Avid (abamectin) is an extremely strong, dangerous product. I cannot conscientiously recommend using such a product, nor can I recommend using a product that may not even be labeled for use on food items, let alone the cannabis corollary of tobacco (look for field tobacco labeling).

While there is one version of Avid (Avid 1.9% EC) that is labeled for greenhouse tomatoes, peppers, and cucumbers, the pre-harvest interval (PHI) is THREE DAYS. Most other versions of Avid are not labeled for use on foodstuffs, though.

I took your advice and will not be using attain TR. I snipped off the locking tab on the pyrethrum bomb and did a quick 15 second spray in the ~10x10 room. It seemed to kill them all.

I now just want to get rid of the eggs. I have been scouring the nets looking for answers on how to kill the eggs before they hatch with no luck.

Any insight? If it is not possible to kill the eggs, in 3 days ill have to do another 15 second bomb of the pyrethrum.

I have never used the alcohol version before. I have 71% ISO alcohol. I have used safer soap and tobacco mixture with success but those were on smaller plants. It's going to be a large PITA to individually spray each leaf but if there is any organic way to kill the EGGS ill have to poney up!

I need these fuckers gone! They need to be in flower in 7 days max - getting way too large.

I would try the ISO straight, then, or mix it to a 60/40 strength iso/water. Also, horticultural oils are a physical barrier and can suffocate. Since the pyrethrum fogging worked to kill adults, I believe you can safely fog the room again a second time. After that, it's time to rotate.

JMS Stylet is, by far, my favorite horticultural oil. You can purchase directly from the manufacturer without a pesticide ID#: Stylets Oil

Also, the spraying itself. I spent a few years dragging around the 2gal pump sprayers, thinking they were pretty much it as far as my options for sprayers. Then last year a friend of mine said, "Girl, get yourself a Northern Tool 12V tank sprayer!" And I did. Spent less than 2 bills and I have a 26gal sprayer that delivers something like 2gpm. I added 50' of vinyl tubing and can reach ANYWHERE. Because it's a diaphragm pump, I can pass compost teas through it without killing the microbes, and the wand nozzle just so happens to be of a design that is also not harmful to the microbes.

Last year I had a hell of a time with aphids the ants were farming and spider mites, especially in my green beans. Once I got the sprayer (a little too late) it made a world of difference in treating. So, I don't know how much you have to spray, but if it's enough then you might want to consider getting yourself one of these tank sprayers, or at least figure out a way to get an electric pump sprayer that will allow you to treat more easily.

Of course, once I went with that, I realized that to do something like the isopropyl treatment I'll need to start buying it by the gallon, something else to consider. But I'm using it everyone on the property (1.3acres) so it's already paid itself off in saved time and effort.

Another mention: I don't know where you're located, but out in California, depending on location, the mites experienced are already resistant to certain over-used products (over-used by everyone, homeowners, landscapers, farmers, everyone). Floramite resistance is already well-experienced and known, as is Avid (abamectin), dichlorvos (No Pest Strips), and pyrethrins, just to name a few.

This is the main reason why I've moved toward physical barriers and other methods that are not at this time known to cause resistance. Well, that and the papers I read not too long ago that discussed the modes by which mites can become resistant. They're actually pretty remarkable little creatures when you think about it.

 

[slshemup]

i will reccommend what i know works wether you like it or not thats your choice.
I have used it for 24 years with no issues or resistance at all as long as its used only when needed.for your info it is has been used on food crops for over 20 years, overuse of everything in every aspect is a human problem thats destroying this planet and nothing will change that unless us human beings are wiped out simple as that.it also has in the box or on larger containers a leaflet for complete directions to use and product constraints and safety directions also storage and disposal.any style of mono cropping will cause dramatic increases in any bug population that feeds on that crop.azamax is really quite useless so is neem oil so is pyrethrum & pyrethiums smoke buds or leafs sprayed with any of that crap sprayed on it must be real good for you and tastes great hey yeah sure!
bugs are one of the fastest evolving/mutating things on the planet.

 

[SeaMaiden]

It's not as much a matter of whether or not *I* like it as the total damage done by making these kinds of recommendations. Avid is a strong poison, if you've been using it this long you know this. If you've been growing cannabis for that long then you also probably know how casual many growers are with their use (and overuse, and misuse) of many strong, inappropriate products, as well.

Added on top of that is the general public perception, and telling people to use products like this, casually, without making a single precautionary statement, is setting us all up for failure. In other words, people like me who make a real effort to be as responsible and conscientious as we can be end up being painted with the same brush that paints people who aren't.

Mites seem to be exceptional in their abilities to mutate and possibly share the genetic information for success, just like bacteria. Again, though, that's not the total issue for me or anyone else. Avid is *toxic* and dangerous to use.

Since you don't know about my IPM, as evidenced by your comments, perhaps you shouldn't make assumptions about what I may or may not have on my product.

Either way, just as you feel a duty to recommend what you know works, please also know that I too feel a duty to fully inform people so as to ensure they make the most intelligent choice possible, as well as to ensure that the appropriate products are used appropriately.

 

[slshemup]

use straight iso in a grow room with hps or mh lights on and kaboom all you will get is one big flash explosion that will set everything on fire and probally kill you.nice to see your safety recommendations there,sorry i must be going blind i cant see your safety recommendations for using straight iso in a growroom.RIP

 

[SeaMaiden]

Oh my God! I can't believe how many times I've done this, I could have DIED! And when I think about all the people who have done this, they could have died! I think about the old-timers who've been growing 30, 40yrs+, the ones who told me about this, they could have died! Oh my GOD!