Preserving genetics, making seeds

[Fucanay420]

I just spent about $120 on 11 seeds.

The strain is White Russian from serious seeds.

Now, I will be making clones and growing that way, but I'd also like to make more seeds so that if I ever need to start from seed again I'll have a backstock of my own seeds and I wont have to keep buying more.


I know the breeders breed their seeds so that what you're buying is high quality genetics, and most of your plants will grow uniformly and the few phenotypes that you get in a seed pack will usually be desirable. They basically weed out the undesirable traits so that every seed in your pack is worth growing and smoking (well...except the males )

My question is this...if I take my best looking female and best looking male White Russian and make seeds...will my seeds have the same purity of genetics, or will this bring out recessive traits and will I end up with lots of seeds that produce phenotypes that aren't worth growing?



Thanks

 

[ocean99]

No but they will be similar. What they sell you is mom x dad, when you make more seeds from them you're growing (mom x dad)x(mom x dad), get it? Same lineage but not exactly the same.

 

[green-thumb]

It matters as to how many times the strain has been grown. "true breed" is a plant that is stable down generations. others will exhibit bad traits and be wildly different from seed to seed. look for high "F" # seeds (ie: F2, F3...etc) the higher the number the more true the strand is and will produce plants near identical to its parents.

 

[Fucanay420]

Hmm

Well, the seeds I got are:

1. Serious Seeds White Russian
2. Serious Seeds Kali Mist
3. Joey Weed Blueberry x C99


How badly will the genetics deteriorate if I cross these with themselves? I'm only looking to get more seeds of the same type, not make my own crosses (i.e WR x WR or Kali x Kali, etc)

 

[GMT]

Its not that they will deteriorate so much, as diversity will be increased. Meaning that while you will still find gems, some of them wont be gems, and some will be diamonds and some will be rubies rather than the emeralds that the F1 stock (which you bought) were. Do it, if nothing else you'll get experience, and at best you'll get killer seeds. Later on you can start crossing your F2s and make some good old homemade polyhybrids.

 

[green-thumb]

The White Russian will breed well. it is a stable strain

The Kali Mist will probably have a 80/10/10 ratio. (like Kail Mist parents/ like original Kali mist that was genetically reinforced in 2000/ like strain that was used to reinforce it)

The Joey Weed Blueberry x C99 is hard to tell, not much info on the genetic background of how the cross was made. I would bet most will be of high quality with half leaning towards this cross and the other half being more like its genetic ancestors.

Any way you look at it you will still have a fine batch of seeds and can choose to develop your favorites into your own personal strains by only breeding those that you like down the generations.

 

[bagseed77]

chuck pollen every grow, i just pollenate a few lower buds and get plenty of seeds,
that way ya have fresh seeds every year, they last a long time so ya have years to look thru and find gems, im starting to think f2s is where all those exotic phenos thAT nobody else has, i want to f2 all the crosses i have to find unique quality plants to grow and puff,pollen also freezes so ya can save many pollen bags of pollen from same male so ya can back cross a few times if ya want to, gl

 

[DRorganic]

I bout some kalimist about 2003 .and the first male was very sticky and had a wonderful octane smell . very haze dominate and a church pheno as the female was a powerful incense smelling and very frosty female. i have been growing these out. but i need to re cross as sam the skunk man said .to really see what i have . i have 3 bags of seed to go through to find a good match. so make the seeds . that's one thing is a must back ups.

they can come and take your equipment and every thing to slow you down. but if you have your genetics .you have it made loss your stock and then you have to serach.

 

[foomar]

chuck pollen every grow, i just pollenate a few lower buds and get plenty of seeds,
that way ya have fresh seeds every year, they last a long time so ya have years to look thru and find gems, im starting to think f2s is where all those exotic phenos thAT nobody else has, i want to f2 all the crosses i have to find unique quality plants to grow and puff,pollen also freezes so ya can save many pollen bags of pollen from same male so ya can back cross a few times if ya want to, gl

Works for me!

Done this with many comercial crosses over the years and the results have been interesting , something better than the original usually easy to find and some real freaks too , good and bad.
Nice to have a genetic backup safe in someone elses fridge as well.

A past run of the Whiterussian as you intend , produced good plants that varied only in stretch more than the original , used two visually identical males and three best femmes.
Only one very leafy freak seen from 50 ish so pretty stable .

Nirvana seeds do pretty much the same but hopefully with a bigger selection.

Given the price of high end seed and the difficulty and legal implications in some parts of the world of getting it , this could be best practice for many and very easy to do , also the source for many freebies sent in.

 

[englishrick]

Its not that they will deteriorate so much, as diversity will be increased. Meaning that while you will still find gems, some of them wont be gems, and some will be diamonds and some will be rubies rather than the emeralds that the F1 stock (which you bought) were. Do it, if nothing else you'll get experience, and at best you'll get killer seeds. Later on you can start crossing your F2s and make some good old homemade polyhybrids.

thats why your a mentor

 

[Care Free 1]

What I have noticed is that when I purchase a pack of seeds from just about any vendor, I can expect about 1-3 keeper females from those packs. I have seen those same percentages follow true with the next generations, so I expect 10% to 30% keepers (or decent plants) from my breeding projects. Anything higher than that, then I know I have found gold.

You wont know what you really have until you get down and do it.

 

[OG bub]

Its not that they will deteriorate so much, as diversity will be increased. Meaning that while you will still find gems, some of them wont be gems, and some will be diamonds and some will be rubies rather than the emeralds that the F1 stock (which you bought) were. Do it, if nothing else you'll get experience, and at best you'll get killer seeds. Later on you can start crossing your F2s and make some good old homemade polyhybrids.

verry true.
the only way youll know, is to find out.
as also has been mentioned, results will varry depending on the liniage or stability of the parents. crossing between hybrids will yeild you more diversity, while crossing between stable parents can result in more uniform offspring.. in general.
but again, the only way to know is to find out.

you should definetly make youre own seeds with plants you like.

peace, bub.

 

[mean mr.mustard]

Simon of Serious Seeds is a very "old school" breeder, who focuses on the stability and purity of his strains... while it is true that the more hybridized varieties will show more phenotypes those are still generally true breeding amongst themselves. His dedication to these ends are one reason he only offers a few strains. Let me also disclaim any failure in any future breeding regimen by stating that only people with an indepth knowledge of genetics will tell you that anomalies arise and nothing is certain. With that being said... Simon doesn't make mistakes

 

[sativa4ever]

You will be making F2 seeds theres nothing wrong with f2's, you will get more variety
tho more phenotypes than the f1 seeds yu bought cause simon used his 2 "breeding
stock plants" were as yu will be using the breeding stock kids to make seeds.
With growing out and choosing yu wnt need 2 buy seeds bro, have fun.
Altough variety is the spice of life so yull end up buying hehe.

 

[VanXant]

Just look for a good clone and you may have something useful for the next 30 years. You have 11 seeds. haha... you are not very likely to improve the seedline. In fact its more likely that youll further reduce the genetic diversity and create more inbred seeds which will have less vigor in any or all traits.

Look for a good clone. Ask friends for good clones. Use clones and increase your yield and chances of growing something good.

Preserving genetics is done by NOT eroding the gene pool.

 

[Mr. Greengenes]

"chuck pollen every grow, i just pollenate a few lower buds and get plenty of seeds" Good advice.

I've saved seed from every single female in every grow since my first, which was in '67. I use about as many males for pollin as there are good looking females in the grow. So, if I have thirty females and only three are what I'm looking for, then I'll select about three males for pollin. If half the females look good, I'll use about half the males. Over the generations, I move gradually towards open pollination. That way, enough variation (within the theme) can be maintained to realize improvements over previous generations.

I'm not sure exactly, but I'd estimate that my Cherry Bomb is around F22 since I sifted the 7 seeds out of the pound of Maui Wowee in '79. In no way has Cherry Bomb declined in general health, in fact it is extremely vigorous and bulletproof compared to many modern 'strains'. Growers are often surprised by the variation of certain CB traits like plant height and bud structure, while other traits like vigor, yield, taste, smell, high and potency are almost identical plant to plant. That's simply because the stable traits are the ones I selected for, and the variable ones are the traits I don't care about.

Without some kind of plan to move towards open pollination in as few generations as possible, there is a great chance of painting oneself into the corner, breeding wise. It's true that progeny testing can allow you to find that best female and male per generation, but the backtracking required can take up almost as much, or with huge grows, even more time than the more gradual method of (relative) open pollination.

Breeders often try to distance themselves from homegrowers by claiming to select from extremely large numbers. The problem with that is, a very special plant is much less likely to be able to throw similar progeny than an average one. Growing 1000 plants is a GREAT way to find a very special cutting, but more often than not, that very special plant will prove to be an extremely difficult nut to crack, breeding wise. Better to work on increasing the percentages of desirable traits in successive generations, even if they're not found in the same plants for the first few F's. Breed inclusively, and with some patience things will come together.

 

[VanXant]

That all sounds pretty good Mr Greengenes. Almost too good actually.
I have to admit, I have to doubt that you did that kind of plant breeding in 1967-79. You were the only one if so....maybe you did. I cant say for sure.

You seem to be saying that "finding the best male and female per generation" is viable for cannabis, but it is not. I guarantee after 22 generations of 1:1 matings, you have reduced heterosis and lost some kinds of adaptive ability. Did you do all the breeding outdoors or?

Selecting 2 single individuals imparts genetic erosion. Thats not my quote, its a fact of Nature. Selecting a significant segment of a LARGE population which meets the goal will maintain genetic diversity and thus population health -not to forget maintaining the potential for future improvements.

MrGreengenes:"The problem with that is, a very special plant is much less likely to be able to throw similar progeny than an average one."
>>That is true. Outliers are likely to be outliers because of epistasis or some other inter-local phenomenon. This is yet another reason to breed with many plants, and not just a few.

So you never selected for plant height,architecture or flower types?hm.ok. I dont think its a surprise to see that with your selection METHOD(1:1, for 20 years) that the traits you described as NOT under direct selection were also quantitative characters of low heritability, which require a more inclusive breeding method to reliably recover)

So, if I may ask, what were your selection criteria for 30 years, if those are not at play?

Do you sell your Cherry Bomb strain? 30 years in the making.

Thankyou for relieving my curiosity MrGreengenes!

 

[Mr. Greengenes]

VanXant, inbreeding successive generations does not automatically 'impart genetic erosion'. You might benifit from a reread of Origin of Species, check the chapter on island populations.

Don't bother about challenging me on the apparent (in)validity of my 'claims', ask someone else. You'll find that I am in fact real and do have such a history. I'm sorry but I won't respond to your challenge more than to suggest you listen to my words and decide for yourself whether I'm 'telling the truth'.

 

[DocLeaf]

yo VanXant

Recessive genes are often thrown up in lineage from single parent matings.This is why we get a display of specimens from true hybrids

Open bred IBLs (like Skunk#1) also still hold LOTS of diversity in their population.

Hope this helps

 

[Mr. Greengenes]

I'm not sure how you managed to assume that I did only single pistillate-single staminate crosses for 22 generations, VanXant. I meant to point out that I moved towards open pollination with that strain as soon as I could. You also assume that I would have selected for such traits as plant and bud structure, height and stuff like that, apparently just because other people pay attention to those traits. Maybe I did pay more attention to those traits in earlier strains that I had worked on now that you mention it. I kind of grew out of that point of view. You have to realize that it's been many, many years.