Please help diagnose and correct this issue:

[SensiBC]

A friend of mine asked me to help figure out what is going on in her garden, so I thought I'd ask the the pro's.

The following plants are all Chemo, and began life as cuttings. They were healthy in Veg, but shortly after switching to 12/12 they began exhibiting the symptoms pictured below. They are currently on day 15 of 12/12 and are in a top drip hydro bucket system using Hydroton as media.

On Day 1 of 12/12 the system was flushed with Florakleen for 2 hours at an appropriate ph, then again briefly with clean ph'd water, then nutes were switched to bloom formula and the 15 gallon res was mixed as follows:

250ml Sensizyme / 6tsp Supernatural Bloom / 60ml Pureblend Bloom / 4ml AN Silicate / 40ml Humic Acid 600ppm

Six days later symptoms began to appear as yellowing and necrotic spots on the margins on the largest oldest fan leaves in the middle of the plant. Initially these symptoms were thought to be a Calcium deficiency, so 60ml of Cal-Mag Plus was added to the res on day 6 of 12/12, bringing the ppm to 800.

The following day, on day 7, 3tsp of Dr Hornby Big Bud powder was added bringing the ppm to 1000.

Two days later the deficiency seemed to be slowly progressing, the ppm had dropped to 900ish, and she began to wonder if it wasn't a potassium def, so another 2 tsp of Supernatural Bloom was added bring the ppm 1100.

At this point the issue was still progressing so the system was once again flushed with Florkleen and the res refilled as follows, omitting the Cal-Mag this time as too much Ca potentially locking out K was the concern at that point.

350ml Sensizyme / 5ml AN Silicate / 60ml Humic Acid / 4.5tsp Big Bud / 150ml Pureblend Bloom / 13tsp Supernatural Bloom -1300ppm

For what it's worth res temps range from 65-72f, room temp is 78-80, co2 is 1500-2000ppm at all times, humidity is low but shouldn't be too low, watering is done in cycles of 1 hour on 3 hours off, and light is provided by a 250CMH and will be upped to a 600HPS as soon as they're healthy again. The res is ph'd to 5.4 and allowed to slowly climb to 6.2 before being lowered back to 5.4 with AN PH Down.


Things aren't getting any better, and leaves are continuing to get worse, so a push in the right direction would be greatly appreciated.


(Pics are in my gallery, the forum won't let me add url's.)

 

[mexilandrace]

first instinct response looking at the pics was PH issues.

how fast are the ph changes happening?

 

[SensiBC]

She says that generally PH is adjusted once a day, although the first 24 hours after a res change the PH seems to wants to climb pretty rapidly so it ends up being adjusted down a bit more frequently until is stabilizes.

Nutrient monitoring is accomplished with a Nutradip Tri Meter, and a Milwaulkie PH52 is used for occasional double checking to be on the safe side.

(Co2 is monitored with a Matador but since everything in her place is CNG the burner isn't even setup.)

 

[SensiBC]

Few more bits of info, if it's helpful:

Source water is tap. (Greater Vancouver Regional District city water - under 100ppm)
Day night temps fluctuate 15 degrees.
Ventilation is accomplished with a 6" Vortex, dimmed to reduce sound. Plenty of airflow though.
The bulb is in an air cooled tube and is approx 8" from the top of the canopy.

Also, she said that she noticed some thrips running around the tops recently, so yesterday she sprayed with Wilsons Ambush as directed by her Hydro store guy. (This had no negative effects on the leaves, and was not done under HID's.)

 

[wygram]

Looks very much like a cal or mag deficiency.... try cutting everything out except bloom and cal-mag... 100 ppm tap water (depending on the conversion factor of your ppm tester) will necessitate cal-mag

which model tri-meter is it... because EC (microsiemens) makes the discussion more uniform

202 - converts microsiemen to PPM factor (0.5)X(microsiemen)
203 - converts microsiemen to PPM (for fish) (0.675)X(microsiemen)
204 - is microsiemen factor (1.0)X(microsiemen)

 

[Koskesh]

200ppm of big bud with all that other crap to 1000ppm at day 7 = crispy critters. then, when the problem gets worse, we ADD more crap to 1100 ppm 2 days later = crispier critters, that will continue to crisp til you slow down the nutes.

affected leaves don't recover, flush those bitches and start light.

 

[SensiBC]

Wygram, the meter is an older model, CMS102.

Koskesh if you would be so kind to give me some targets to give her to shoot for concerning how much of what you'd suggest she add to her 15 gal res I'd appreciate it. The issue apparently started at 600ppm and appeared as a deficiency, so additional nutes were added. I guess she read that if ph goes up and ppm goes down you're not feeding heavy enough and to add more until the ppm stabilizes and ph is always slowly rising. That's obviously not working out too well for her, so seasoned advice is more than welcome.

 

[Navigator330]

Koskesh is right.... you gave them way too much ppm's and now they are probably locked out. No nutrients will uptake, therefore the plant stays looking like it has a def. PH at 5.4 and it keeps raising? Try raising it up a few points and keeping it to see if that levels it. IF it keeps rising you could find a buffer to help hold the ph. Sort of like a ph buffer in a fishtank. While i grew hydro i used mainly aquarium supplies to adjust my water.


G/L

 

[SensiBC]

She's flushing the system with Florakleen again right now, and will probably do so for 2 hours as directed on the bottle unless someone here tells me to tell her otherwise.

I still don't know what to tell her about what to add and how much once she refills though, aside from less of it that is. I assume the Humic Acid, Potassium Silicate, and Sensizyme can still be administered at full strength... what about the Big Bud? Should she add any Cal-Mag plus? Should she still use the Pureblend Bloom at the supplemental dose, or avoid it altogether? Finally, once she starts adding the Supernatural Bloom, where should I tell her to aim for on ppm? 400, 500, 600,??

 

[Koskesh]

ppm is not in itself the entire basis of your feeding program... just because you are at the right ppm doesn't mean that ppm is made up of the right quantities of nutrients.

first, you need to know the ppm of your water before adding anything to it. generally tap water is around 150, this accounts for the trace elements like cal and mag - that said, you should only add cal-mag if your water lacks these elements, to bring it to an acceptable level, ie 100-200 ppm, cal-mag included, max.

second, your pure blend bloom is not a supplement, it's your main source of the main nutrients, you should always make sure the ppm of this is at least half the total ppm of your solution. so if you have 600 ppm, at least 300 of that should be your base, pbp bloom.

so now u got your cal-mag sorted, base nutes are in, and you can fill the remainder with supplements, if you feel you need to. you don't.

do not use big bud at all until at least 2 weeks into flowering, and not at full dose. start with like 100 ppm of it, and increase by 50 or so ppm per week up to 200 max. ride that 200 till you start to taper the feeding off near the end of flowering, about 3 weeks before the chop, after that you can switch to overdrive or nothing.

so first 2 weeks, 600-800 ppm of pbp bloom and maybe some cal-mag (always add cal-mag first). then if you start moving to 1000 it should look something like: 200 ppm starting water incl cal-mag, 600 ppm base (pbp bloom), 200 ppm big bud. if you need to add other stuff that raises ppm decrease the big bud.

hope that helps. i'm too lazy to look up the contents of SN bloom, u want help on that let me know the n-p-k-mg etc, the weight and volume, and whether it's dry or liquid.

cheers

 

[SensiBC]

Thank you very much for helping to make sense of all this.

The Nutradip meter that is currently in use only reads ppm in multiples of 100, but tap water registers 00. I do recall a while back seeing a Nutradip CMS202 showing the tap water in this area to be 80ppm. Also, I found a water quality report from a couple of years ago, and everything in the list was under 1ppm except calcium, which was 1.something ppm. Not sure how helpful this is, but it's everything I can think of.

The reason I referred to the Pureblend as being used as a supplement is because this isn't Pureblend Pro, it's just regular ol pureblend. On the label it says something to the effect of "Add 1-2 teaspoons/gal to your regular nutrient solution, or if using Pureblend Alone use 1-2 Tablespoons/gal" Since she was planning to use the Supernatural as a primary nute she went by the first suggestion. (PB was leftover from a Pro-Mix grow, so she was just using it to use it.)

As far as the Supernatural Bloom is concerned it's a powder and the label reads as follows:

Guaranteed Analysis
11.31.15

Total nitrogen (N) 11%
4.69% Ammonical Nitrogen
6.31% Nitrate Nitrogen
Available Phosphate (p205) 31%
Soluble Potash (k20) 15%
Boron .02%
Copper .05%
.05% Chelated Copper
Iron .1%
.1% Chelated Iron
Magnese .05%
.05% Chelated Magnese
Molybdenum .0024%
Zinc .05%
.05% Chelated Zinc

Directions state to mix 2 teaspoons per gallon = 700ppm

[Derived from: Calcium nitrate, Potassium Nitrate, Ammonium Nitrate, Mono-potassium, Mono Ammonium Phosphate, Potassium Sulphate, Magnesium Sulphate, Borax, Copper (CuEDTA), Iron (FeEDTA), Mananese (MnEDTA), Ammonium Molybdate and Zinc (ZnEDTA)

Also Contains non plant food ingredient: .001% Thiamine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B1)]

 

[SensiBC]

I just realized that I didn't paint a very accurate portrait of the time-line after a certain point in my initial post. Technically speaking, today is day 1 of week 3 in bloom. They were flipped to 12/12 on October 9th. Again, for whatever that's worth.

 

[SensiBC]

She just dumped the res with the Florakleen in it and just refilled with clear ph'd water and will be running that through for about 30 min to make sure any residual crap is gone from the system.

Once she refills I will advise her to begin by adding Cal-Mag until the meter just barely begins to blink to 200ppm. Then add Supernatural Bloom until 500ppm on the meter, and then 100ppm of Big Bud, totaling 600ppm. \

I don't believe the Humic, Sensizyme, or Barricade effect ppm, and supposedly only help, so I guess having her add them as well couldn't hurt unless you folks say otherwise.

Please let me know what you think, and thanks again.

 

[Koskesh]

just got up... since you're at week 3 and not day 9, it's ok to start using your bloom enhancer(s) - i haven't had a chance to check the supernatural bloom with the nute calc but just looking at what's in it tells me it's a bloom enhancer, and so is bigbud. the pure blend, whether pro or not, is your base food. that is the one you use throughout the grow. 300 ppm of a bloom enhancer is VERY high, they will BURN with all that P and K from those 2 products at such high concentrations. looks like you're confusing the pure blend with the supernatural. the 300 ppm in that 600 ppm solution should be the PURE BLEND.

label instructions are not taking into account the other products from other companies that you are also adding. if you choose to mix and match you should know what you're doing beforehand, or you are MUCH better off choosing a simple, complete formula - as anyone on this board will tell you, and I'm surprised they haven't already (lol) is "keep it simple, simon".

the target ratio for cannabis is 100N-100P-200K-60Mg. there's a good nute calc here: http://www.angelfire.com/cantina/fourtwenty/articles/profiles.htm

it's easy to use, try entering the numbers for your products, you may be shocked at how far off your ratios are. that supernatural, at a glance, looks like it has more N than i would use. gimme a few hours i'll hopefully have a chance to look at it properly

 

[Koskesh]

Also, she said that she noticed some thrips running around the tops recently, so yesterday she sprayed with Wilsons Ambush as directed by her Hydro store guy. (This had no negative effects on the leaves, and was not done under HID's.)

Just noticed that bit...if the only pests she has are thrips, Neem oil is awesome. 8ml/L and a few drops of wetting agent sprayed every 4 days. After 3 treatments you can slow it down to once a week, and throw in some of that Ambush every couple weeks, or EndAll or w/e. No spraying from 2-3 weeks before harvest plz

 

[Rifman]

ok mate ill tell you why half the people here says it is cal def and the other half says its ph.

at ph under 5,8 ish, depending on strain, the plant gets problems absorbing calsium. this is what is most commonly referred to as a lockout.

calsium is vital for the plants ability to absorb magnesium, which is a key ingredient in the flowering stage.

that is why people often dont know that they have a ph problem until the flowering stage, because the plant doesnt need as much of these in veg.

your ph should be as close to 6.0 as possible but not under!
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lets move on an diagnose your plants.

the symptoms/observations: yellowing and drying up leaves, yellowing starting from the inside of the leaf, and extending outwards towards the edges and tips. leaf skeleton remains green until the leaf dies. tip of leaf is the first to die.

ok lets not go very much into plausible theories, as we have already made several independent conclutions of it being a mag or cal def.

at this point it is important to distinguish between symptoms and causes. keep your head leveled and don't add any more possible flaw factors.

we still only know the symptomes, lets move on to possible causes and THEN ill tell you how to take proper action.

possible causes to cal/mag def:
-PH lockout. as explained above, problem becomes visual around ph 5,5.

-underfeeding. this is rare with beginners, and is usually visual in a number of ways. there would be other symptoms.

-nutrient solution is designed especially for a hard-water area. hard water contains more cal/mag, and some brands are made especially for hard water. if you have very soft water, this is a plausible possibility, but i doubt it personally.

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ok now you have several different possible causes for the symptoms. it is important for you to take all possibilities into consideration.

the proper cause of action would be to try to eliminate some of these possibilities, and NOT add any more possible flaw factors.

first lets take some basic precautions, always go back to basics. lets start with the equipment and eliminate some common equipment errors.

PH-pens needs constant calibration with high and low fluids, they also need to be thoroughly cleaned before and after use. the ph probe must never go dry it must always be moist when storing it. forget to calibrate once or if it goes dry once or if it is dirty even once can fuck up your measurements completely. I would reccomend a liquid ph test solution, these cost about 10euros or dollars, gives you a coupple months of usage and you will always get consistant results. buy it at your local fish/aquarium/zoo/pet-store, whatever you call it locally. ask for a liquid ph test solution, the type they use on aquariums. buy it, try it - flawfactor eliminated.

EC-meter pens, these are generally a lot better then the ph pens, they generally require less calibrating and cleaning. i bought a cheap one years ago and it still gives consistant results, it is a simple device that only measures the electric conductivity of the water. basically the better it leads electrisity the higher the EC. it is impossible however to measure what types of salts are leading this electicity. which is why we have to look at the feeding solution.

Feeding solution, could it be low in cal/mag and ment for hard water? it probably doesnt say so on the bottle but its quite easy to find out by eliminating ph as the issue. and how do we do that, by adding cal/mag to the mix as an additive? well we could ofc do that, it would tell us if the problem was ph lockout due to acidic soil or not. if the problem prevailed, it would be ph if it didnt it was simply the nute solution.

however, this could lead to even more ph problems because nutes that the plant didnt absorb if we were wrong would be stored in the soil and we would also have to go out and buy expencive products.

the correct way to test this would be to actually lower the EC, or give only pure water for a while. ph check whatever you give them thoroughly with the liquid ph test solution mentioned. do not overwater as heavy watering will release stored nutes, and could lead to even more acidic soil and possibly nute burn. do not try to flush if suspecting ph problems. see if symptoms change.

now if you could eliminate these flaw factors for me i would easily be able to diagnose these plants for you friend. or you could just as easily do it yourself by using this method:

observe symptoms - identify possible causes - eliminate factors.

i usually check back on my posts, but incase i dont good luck you will be fine

 

[wygram]

remember ppms are relative to your meter... in this case the 102/202s are .5 conversion factor meaning 500 ppm equals 1.0 EC, a generally safe level

that being said... the supernatural stuff doesn't look so good in terms of NPK, as koskesh said, way too much N. it might be good for initial flower, but you want less N later... i don't think the PB by itself will cut it and you may have problems maintaining a stable pH because of its organic nature... look into the three part GH nutrients and run them with the lucas formula, lots of info about that here...

 

[Koskesh]

I agree with wygram in pretty much all he said. GH Flora is great, i recently switched to it, using a modified version of Rez's modified Lucas formula lol. i don't use the Grow, only the micro and bloom from that 3 part. floranova is very thick, I don't like it. you can probably keep using the pb if you have to, but i would only use the big bud and drop the other one.

 

[SensiBC]

Thanks a lot folks, I appreciate the insight.

From what I understand the Supernatural Bloom nute she is using is supposedly a one part bloom fert which Supernatural (and her Hydro store guys) claim has all of the micros and macros and whatnot. I'm obviously not the guy to ask when it comes to that, but I did notice that this happens to be the "Bloom Terra 11 • 31 • 15" powder which is intended for soil and soilless mixes. They also have a "Bloom Aqua 10 • 7 • 16 powder" which they claim is intended for Hydro and Aero but apparently none of the stores in the area carry anything but the Terra versions. Stores all claim the Grow and Bloom Terra work great in Hydro gardens though, so honestly I'm not sure what the deal is with this stuff now. It's clear though that it has way more nitrogen than most of the lucas based formulas recommend, that's for sure.

Conversely, it seems that they hydro store guy has told her that Pureblend Original is not a complete nutrient as it is missing the micro elements and will not work as a one part hydroponic nute. No wonder there's confusion. lol

I took a look at that nute calc but I'm not sure what the superatural weighs per tsp so I wasn't sure how to proceed. If you're interested in looking at their products and specs and whatnot the website is "supernaturalbrand dot com /growers dot htm" (They mistakenly have the Bloom Aqua listed as a Veg nute fwiw)

 

[Koskesh]

you don't need the weight per tsp, you enter the info on the nute container. i would ditch that stuff anyway. the calmag has all your mics and pb has your macs. add the big bud to that and i don't see what else you need.... more is not better!!

edit: if i had a nickel for every crop i ruined by over thinking and over analyzing...well i'd only have a nickel but i'd still rather have the crop