Plant Growth Regulators (PGRs) thread

[Clackamas Coot]

spurr

I've been looking for a couple of hours to find an application rate using 100% pure salicylic acid without much luck.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

CC

 

[OsWiZzLe]

spurr

I've been looking for a couple of hours to find an application rate using 100% pure salicylic acid without much luck.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

CC

this might help you ...

http://www.wetandforget.com/products_vaccinate.php

 

[maryanne3087]

spurr

I've been looking for a couple of hours to find an application rate using 100% pure salicylic acid without much luck.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

CC

I read something in the Advanced Foliar Techniques thread by PODRACER where he quoted a uni study and they used an application rate of 80mg per 2gals ie. 2 non coated tylenol tablets @ 40mg's each.

 

[thcrefugee]

Awesome thread! Im so glad we have these forums now.

I just wanted to add a bit of useless infor i found funny about ethylene.

As a natural by product of ethylene production in plants, another product made in the synthesis is HCN, Hydrogen cyanide. Yes. plants produce cyanide as a by-product of ethylene. what a weird biochemical pathway this one is.

 

[VerdantGreen]

keep it simple, high N early grow,
High P for transplant and,
especially early Flower, like days before turning to flower make sure you have loaded soil with Phosphorus

Hormones are great, I love whatever is in KoolBloom way later in flower like the last 3 weeks of flower, hygrozyme is awesome early grow and early flower

off topic here, but you should check what spurr wrote about P and stretch in this thread
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=194053

 

[spurr]

spurr

I've been looking for a couple of hours to find an application rate using 100% pure salicylic acid without much luck.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

CC

IIRC, using 100 ppm has been found effective. But I need to double check that. A while ago I calculated how many aspirin (analog of salicylic acid) are needed in one gallon of water to equal 100 ppm.

 

[spurr]

I read something in the Advanced Foliar Techniques thread by PODRACER where he quoted a uni study and they used an application rate of 80mg per 2gals ie. 2 non coated tylenol tablets @ 40mg's each.

Can you link to that study? I will download it today in full text. And are you sure it was Tylenol, and not Aspirin?

FWIW, 80 mg into 2 gallons (~7.57 liters) equals ~10 ppm.

 

[spurr]

Spurr,
Good stuff!
Your posts reek of intelligence! Do you have a pgr program you could breakdown? You got me interested in cns for my coco plants. Keep droppin the knowledge!

Yes I can breakdown my PGR program, but, I'm still refining it. I want to study effects of various PGRs upon rate of photosynthesis, glandular trichcome density, cannabis levels, chlorophyll A and B, plant growth, internodal elongation, dry yield of buds, etc. I plan to throughlly test the effects of various PGRs, with high tech analytical equipment (like Chl fluorometer, Chl meter, HPTLC, etc), upon cannabis this coming year...

Before I fully breakdown what I do and how I do it, I want to download some studies I lost. I did so yesterday, but then the damn computer auto-rebooted and I lost all the papers I had downloaded.

FWIW, so far I am unable to re-find the papers using 25 ppm of TRIA, I have only been able to re-find the papers using 1 ppm, 2 ppm, 5 ppm, 10 ppm and 15 ppm of TRIA. I am still looking for those older TRIA studies I read with 25 ppm TRIA. I plan to very thoroughly study effects of TRIA at 1, 5, 10 and 25 ppm this coming year. From my (non-analytical) testing so far, 10 and 25 ppm of TRIA work very well. And other growers of various flowering C3 plants, have also found 10 and 25 ppm of TRIA worked well.

 

[spurr]

@ all:

Here are some sources for PGRs, some are in powder form and some are diluted into concentrate solution ready to be further diluted for application:


Powers, etc.:

1. PhytoTech Labs for all PGRs, including auxins and hormones. Such as brassinosteroid (BRASS; as 24-epibrassinolide direct link), triacontanol (TRIA), 6-Benzylaminopurine (BAP; cytokinin), kinetin, zeatin, salicylic acid (SA), methyl jasmonic acid (MeJA; direct link), etc:
http://www.phytotechlab.com/searchresult.aspx?categoryid=10


2. SuperGrow for many PGRs, including auxins, BRASS (as brassinolide), TRIA, BAP ('safe' application rate is ~50-100 ppm; can make plants stretch like a mofo, beware!), etc.
http://supergrow.biz/


3. TopTropicals for BRASS (as 24-epinbrassinolide):
http://toptropicals.com/html/toptropicals/articles/cultivation/epin.htm


4. Aspirin for analog of salicylic acid, "acetyl-salicylic acid". Research has shown that acetyl-salicylic acid provides similar effects as a SAR inducer to salicylic acid. Documented usage rate in various studies is ~50-100 ppm IIRC (I need to double check that ppm claim).​

Various useful online ppm and dilution calculators for dry and liquid products:

1. PPM Calculator
http://supergrow.biz/PPM.jsp


2. PPM conversion into percent:
http://supergrow.biz/PPMConvert.jsp


3. Percent conversion into PPM:
http://supergrow.biz/PcentConvert.jsp


4. Dilution calculator:
"[For] taking a liquid that has a certain concentration and adding more liquid to make it weaker."
http://supergrow.biz/Dilution.jsp​

Pre-mixed concentrate PGRs in solution:

1. Jaz Spray: contains methyl dihydrojasmonate (MDHJ), has a similar effect to methyl jasmonic acid (MeJA). However, using methyl jasmonic acid (aka methyl jasmonate) is preferable for increasing glandular trichome density (X trichs over Y area). If my quickly done math is correct, application rate as suggested on bottle (45 ml per quart, with 0.68% MDHJ (w/w) in 453.6 gram bottle that has a volume of 473 ml), the ppm is ~300-310 (depending upon molar mass of MDHJ).
http://www.jazsprays.com/Jaz-Rose-Spray--16-oz-Concentrate_p_8.html


2. Vaccinate: for salicylic acid to induce SAR, but using MJA is a better option IMO. I'm going to figure out the approximate ppm later today if using application rate from bottle label.
http://www.wetandforget.com/products_vaccinate.php


3. Triffid: for triacontanol, I'm going to figure out the approximate ppm later today if using application rate from bottle label.
http://www.wetandforget.com/products_triffid.php


4. Rush Biostimulants "Xcite", "Xcell" and "calX": for cytokinin (BAP, I believe) and glycine-betaine (anti-stress agent). I used this lineup many years ago on cannabis (cv. "Big Bud"), circa 2003, and it worked well, increased growth rate for sure. However, do not over apply becuase it will make cannabis stretch like a mofo! This product is hard to find retail...
http://www.rambridge.com/info/rush2/rushhow2.aspx​

P.S. I would like to thank my good buddy Oswizzle for finding the ready-to-use products: Jaz, Epin, Vaccinate and Triffid.

 

[spurr]

here is a link about plant hormones/growth regulators that is pretty simple and in layman's terms (useful for people like myself )

good basic descriptions of Auxins, Abcisic acid, Cytokinins, Ethylene and Gibberellins

http://www.plant-hormones.info/

Cool link, thanks VG, I will read it today.

 

[grapeman]

I use many of these products that are "supposedly" being researched herein and do have a few comments.

First, I be surprised if there is much use for ethylene gas. This product is almost exclusively used on various fruits to promote ripening. Timing is critical. Too soon, and your fruit will not mature, too late, the fruit will turn too dark to be attractive for market. It is labeled for some wheat & barley to prevent lodging, usually caused by too much N. Or tobacco. But the tobacco label says not to treat what you can't pick in the same day. So that leaves us with the main thrust of ethylene which is in fruits. Fruits are different as the fruit is mostly water and not green tissue. The reason I believe this is important is that even 1 treatment of ethylene will make the fruit weaker. subsequent treatments make the fruit weaker still and reduce storage life, shipping distances and profits. So what exactly would be the point, as ethylene is a known and proven stressor.

Gibb. While the op states over and over that the application of gibb causes stretching, it also has other benefits in fruit growing. Fruit Size and thinning. But I don't see a use for it in this crop. It promotes rapid cell division, but I doubt that would be useful in trying to make your flowers denser. Instead, it would make them fluffier.

Cytokinins. Meh. I used them since the 80's, sometime with success and sometimes with no noticeable success. I've used them in the spring on early root flush, before during and after gibb applications and before during and after etherel applications. I seriously doubt that you could devise a control/test to determine a beneficial use of Cytokinins. They're so cheap, it would be a more wise use of time to just make sure they are available to the plant during the grow.

I've played with most of the other products also including 2-4-D, CPPU, ABA (another stressor) and others not on your google list. In fact, I have much of this stuff in the garage.

I'm not using them. There are too many other techniques/regimens that would be more helpful in a 60 day grow that this may be a project for science/bragging purposes only.

I have experience and opinions that I may post later.

 

[spurr]

I use many of these products that are "supposedly" being researched herein and do have a few comments.

Dude, please drop that attitude, it's obvious you are upset about what I proved in regards to Phi (phosphites) so you are now trying to cause trouble.

This is a science based sub-forum, so please, post at least some science, not just personal conjecture and anecdotal evidence from usage on grapes.

First, I be surprised if there is much use for ethylene gas.

Then color you surprised! I am about to upload some papers about ethylene as a SAR inducer. I already wrote about ethylene, and provided some science about why we do not want ethylene in growing for buds. No one is suggesting we use ethylene as a PGR, or as a SAR inducer, not sure where you got that from...

Gibb. While the op states over and over that the application of gibb causes stretching, it also has other benefits in fruit growing. Fruit Size and thinning. But I don't see a use for it in this crop. It promotes rapid cell division, but I doubt that would be useful in trying to make your flowers denser. Instead, it would make them fluffier.

What I wrote about GA3 (in the first post only) was a quick run down of what GA3 does, and yes, it increases trich density. And GA3 can be used to increase growth rates, that is well proven. And like I wrote, I am not suggesting people use it at this time. Current research shows it probably hinders THC and terpenoid development in cananbis, so application during flowering is not a good idea.

I will be uploading this paper shortly

"Effects of Gibberellic Acid on Primary Terpenoids and 9-Tetrahydrocannabinol in Cannabis sativa at Flowering Stage"
Hakimeh Mansouri, Zahra Asrar and Mitra Mehrabani
Journal of Integrative Plant Biology 2009, 51 (6): 553–561
​

Cytokinins. Meh. I used them since the 80's, sometime with success and sometimes with no noticeable success. I've used them in the spring on early root flush, before during and after gibb applications and before during and after etherel applications. I seriously doubt that you could devise a control/test to determine a beneficial use of Cytokinins.

Dude, kelp extract provides much of its benefit from cytokinins! Next you will tell us, from your conjectural and anecdotal evidence, that we should not use kelp extract. There is much benefit to kelp extract and cytokinin, if properly applied, in terms of increased roots growth if used at root zone, and increase in growth rate and chlorophyll content, etc., if foliar applied.

Read the link VG posted for more sound scientifically sourced info in laypersons terms...

I've played with most of the other products also including 2-4-D, CPPU, ABA (another stressor) and others not on your google list. In fact, I have much of this stuff in the garage.

I only listed PGRs I have tested on cannabis (others here have also tested some of those PGRs, like ozwizzle). Don't think I do not know about others PGRs and substances, I only listed what I think provides the most worthwhile affects from testing on cannabis.

And like I wrote, please drop the attitude, or don't post in my threads, re: "not on your google list." You are just mad I proved you wrong about phosphites and being childish.

This sub-forum is not what you like, i.e. science, so I must ask: why are you bothering to post here? Apparently just to try and cause drama...

I'm not using them. There are too many other techniques/regimens that would be more helpful in a 60 day grow that this may be a project for science/bragging purposes only.

<face palm> Your true intentions are shinning through loud and clear. Please, stop posting in my threads if you only want to be a jerk. This sub-forum as been 100% free of haters and drama until you posted...

Also, if you haven't tried, nor learning anything about brassinosteriods, you are shorting yourself big time. I am about to upload a ton of studies on these topics, but I'm sure you won't read them...

I have experience and opinions that I may post later.

I would prefer you didn't if you are going to continue acting this way. You offered nothing useful in your post, you are only here to 'get back at me' for proving you wrong about Phi.

Also, I find it funny that after I called NutriPhite, and got an invite to contact their PhD plant physiologist, you still give me no respect. I did your leg work for you, calling your source of Phi, and confirming everything I wrote about Phi, and disproving what you wrote about Phi, from your own source of Phi.


I will not respond to you again in this thread, please, just stop doing what you're doing...

 

[Yankee Grower]

Dude, kelp extract provides much of its benefit from cytokinins! Next you will tell us, from your conjectural and anecdotal evidence, that we should not use kelp extract. There is much benefit to kelp extract and cytokinin, if properly applied, in terms of increased roots growth if used at root zone, and increase in growth rate and chlorophyll content, etc., if foliar applied.

That may be true regarding kelp extract but other benefits from sea-based materials for ag use including kelp. A private study was done this Summer with a sea-based product that had nothing to do with cytokins which rocked and do believe some of the benefits kelp offers has nothing to do with cytokins. Kelp extracts are concentrating something(s) else which is being ignored IMO and not rocket science. While it won't be a peer reviewed study it was overseen by researchers from Cornell and soon as I get access to it will post the info someplace.

 

[spurr]

Hey,

Yea kelp extract, if it's cold/cool processed (enzymatically is best), offers lots of benefits, I never wrote it only offers cytokinins. But, cytokinins are a major benefit from kelp extract. Some other substances in kelp extract that help plants are: natural source of PGRs (incl. hormones, auxins, etc), vitamins, amino acids, nutrients (like N, K, and micros), and they can be a good feedstock for both fungi and bacteria, etc...

I would love to read whatever you can provide, it doesn't have to peer-reviewed to be of value

 

[grapeman]

Dude, please drop that attitude, it's obvious you are upset about what I proved in regards to Phi (phosphites) so you are now trying to cause trouble.

This is a science based sub-forum, so please, post at least some science, not just personal conjecture and anecdotal evidence from usage on grapes.



Then color you surprised! I am about to upload some papers about ethylene as a SAR inducer. I already wrote about ethylene, and provided some science about why we do not want ethylene in growing for buds. No one is suggesting we use ethylene as a PGR, or as a SAR inducer, not sure where you got that from...





What I wrote about GA3 (in the first post only) was a quick run down of what GA3 does, and yes, it increases trich density. And GA3 can be used to increase growth rates, that is well proven. And like I wrote, I am not suggesting people use it at this time. Current research shows it probably hinders THC and terpenoid development in cananbis, so application during flowering is not a good idea.

I will be uploading this paper shortly

"Effects of Gibberellic Acid on Primary Terpenoids and 9-Tetrahydrocannabinol in Cannabis sativa at Flowering Stage"
Hakimeh Mansouri, Zahra Asrar and Mitra Mehrabani
Journal of Integrative Plant Biology 2009, 51 (6): 553–561
​

Dude, kelp extract provides much of its benefit from cytokinins! Next you will tell us, from your conjectural and anecdotal evidence, that we should not use kelp extract. There is much benefit to kelp extract and cytokinin, if properly applied, in terms of increased roots growth if used at root zone, and increase in growth rate and chlorophyll content, etc., if foliar applied.

Read the link VG posted for more sound scientifically sourced info in laypersons terms...




I only listed PGRs I have tested on cannabis (others here have also tested some of those PGRs, like ozwizzle). Don't think I do not know about others PGRs and substances, I only listed what I think provides the most worthwhile affects from testing on cannabis.

And like I wrote, please drop the attitude, or don't post in my threads, re: "not on your google list." You are just mad I proved you wrong about phosphites and being childish.

This sub-forum is not what you like, i.e. science, so I must ask: why are you bothering to post here? Apparently just to try and cause drama...



<face palm> Your true intentions are shinning through loud and clear. Please, stop posting in my threads if you only want to be a jerk. This sub-forum as been 100% free of haters and drama until you posted...

Also, if you haven't tried, nor learning anything about brassinosteriods, you are shorting yourself big time. I am about to upload a ton of studies on these topics, but I'm sure you won't read them...



I would prefer you didn't if you are going to continue acting this way. You offered nothing useful in your post, you are only here to 'get back at me' for proving you wrong about Phi.

Also, I find it funny that after I called NutriPhite, and got an invite to contact their PhD plant physiologist, you still give me no respect. I did your leg work for you, calling your source of Phi, and confirming everything I wrote about Phi, and disproving what you wrote about Phi, from your own source of Phi.


I will not respond to you again in this thread, please, just stop doing what you're doing...

Well no hate here. Maybe you ought to re-read you response.

Anyway, so I was right about ethylene.

Using gibb to increase growth rates will require careful nutrition as when plants (any plant) is pushed beyond natural growth, deficiencies are common and growth is thin and stringy. Extra Carbon and Calcium would be the 2 most important things to provide along with other nutes. Another way to insure heavy trics would be better genetics, nutrition and lights. Maybe simpler then dealing with GA3 which while very safe, is classified as a pesticide by the state of calif.

And we would agree about cytokinins. You listed individual cytos (zeatin, kinetin etc) while my comment was that it would be easier and smarter to just supply cytos throughout the grow. That's why I do use kelp meal in the soil and also acadian kelp via foliar and irrigation. Sometimes I use kelpak, a different kelp (works great as a root stimulant at a 2% soak during veg), but i think acadian seaweed is better all around. So my contention might be the same as yours, to just supply kelp throughout the grow, as it is cheap (like I said in my previous post). So kelp is really nothing new. Most good growers use plenty of kelp on a wide range of crops.

I would still contend that using pgr's on a 8 week crop would be difficult at best to establish baselines and rates that would be much better then good nutrition and growing practices. As use of any pgr would require extra nutrition within the plant to maintain normal growth during the period of rapid cell division caused by the gibb.

And since you brought it up again about phosphites, my only contentions were that I decreased the use of P acid via drip dramatically while using phi foliars and still maintained my P levels thereby saving money.

the kelp I use here and by the ton in my day job is

 

[Clackamas Coot]

Hey,

Yea kelp extract, if it's cold/cool processed (enzymatically is best),

spurr

I can help you out on that deal - Eco Nutrients' Eco-Nereo Kelp Liquid Auxiliary

From their web site:

"Process: We manually harvest the fronds of the kelp. We grind the kelp, add an enzyme, and put it into vats at room temperature, 55 to 60 degrees F. Two percent, water soluble, humic acid is added and the product is then allowed to break itself down, then it's sent through the 200 mesh Sweco screen."

Tested. It's a viable kelp source harvested off the coasts of Alaska, Canada and Oregon. It's about $14.00 per gallon (1 oz. per gallon of water) and worth looking at, IMHO

CC

 

[funkymonkey]

I love seaweed extract, been using kelp extract as long as I've been growing.

Nearly all the seaweed I've seen for sale has been Kelp (Ascophyllum Nodosum) which always confused me, I live on the North Atlantic coast and a quick stroll along the beach shows 7-8 species of seaweed other than kelp.

Bcuzz/Atami list Laminara Digitata as an ingredient in their bloom boosters, you can find that species on the beach near my house easily.

Anyone got any info on the different types of seaweed and their use in horticulture?

 

[Yankee Grower]

I never wrote it only offers cytokinins.

But, cytokinins are a major benefit from kelp extract. Some other substances in kelp extract that help plants are: natural source of PGRs (incl. hormones, auxins, etc), vitamins, amino acids, nutrients (like N, K, and micros), and they can be a good feedstock for both fungi and bacteria, etc...

I would love to read whatever you can provide, it doesn't have to peer-reviewed to be of value

I know you never wrote it only offers cytokins.

Also trace elements are concentrated...or at least they should be to some extent. It's my understanding one of the issues with kelp extracts is the arsenic content. I would not worry too much about it cause most of it is in an organic form and not inorganic so no biggie.

Non-reviewed research is cool. For those peeps that can think for themselves and don't need a group of peeps looking at the info to tell you what's right or not right about it.

 

[Yankee Grower]

And since you brought it up again about phosphites, my only contentions were that I decreased the use of P acid via drip dramatically while using phi foliars and still maintained my P levels thereby saving money.

One of the very cool things about Grapeman is he's in commercial production of a lower margin crop and knows what works on the field or not in his situation regardless of what some company or research says. I always like the cost:benefit ratio analogy.

 

[maryanne3087]

Can you link to that study? I will download it today in full text. And are you sure it was Tylenol, and not Aspirin?

FWIW, 80 mg into 2 gallons (~7.57 liters) equals ~10 ppm.

Haha, It was non coated Aspirin I don't know why I put Tylenol. I'll find it I don't think it was properly cited but I'm sure you can find it. It has the school/proffs name who did the study.

http://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=893546&postcount=15