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Plane on a conveyor belt revisited (and with proof!)

Tarkus

Mother Nature's Son
Veteran
Ooh, I am sure some of ya'll will be a little perturbed, as some were last time.
In case you do not remember, I posed a question a while back that caused some debate. The question was as follows:
If an airplane is sitting on a conveyor belt as long as a runway, and the conveyor belt moved in the opposite direction of the plane, proportionate to the plane's speed, would the plane be able to take off? A Cessna sitting on the conveyor runway, traveling at 10 mph would have the conveyor runway moving backwards at 10 mph. The plane going 25 mph, the conveyor goes 25 mph. Remember, I am not saying the plane can take off at 10 or 25 mph, I am just giving an example (last time, this caused some major confusion in a few people). Keep in mind that the airplane is propelled forward by the propeller moving the air, not by the wheels pushing the ground. This is what enables float planes to take off from the water, because they certainly do not have a propeller in the water pushing them forward.

Now let's youtube the question and see what we come up with. Ahhh, this looks promising. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EopVDgSPAk
If you are hasty, you can skip to 2 minutes in. The guy just poses the question, asks his son and blah blah blah. I believe the airplane is moving forward by golly, even when the treadmill speed is exceeding the speed at which the plane is capable of going. The kid gets in the way at the end, so you can only see it move about one plane length and then out of view, but I assure you, it keeps on truckin'.

In short, the airplane will take off, regardless of the conveyor speed. A car has to match the speed to stay in one spot, and overcome that speed to gain any ground, since it is propelled forward by the very same wheels that touch the ground. An airplane does not have this problem, since the wheels on a plane do not push it forward, they only roll it in the direction the propeller is sending the plane.
 

Berry_Coughin'

Active member
Veteran
no way... I still disagree.... uh... how is that a controlled experiment???

If I remember correctly... the question imposed, was implying that the belt/runway would be moving at the rate necessary in which to keep the plane stagnant, and when pulling up, would it take off? Maybe I misunderstood the situation, but this in no way proves anything in my book... but was a good laugh.... :bashhead:
 
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B.C.

Non Conformist
Veteran
aaaawww jeez TARKUS !!!

aaaawww jeez TARKUS !!!

LOL.... I'm outa here! Take care...BC
 
HAHAHAHA, totally right Tarkus, although its not a "controlled experiment" like Berry said it still goes to show that the plane CAN take off.

Berry: i dont think the conveyor belt is meant to keep the plane stagnant or immobile, but to match its speed in the opposite direction

N_G
 

Tarkus

Mother Nature's Son
Veteran
Berry_Coughin' said:
If I remember correctly... the question imposed, was implying that the belt/runway would be moving at the rate necessary in which to keep the plane stagnant, and when pulling up, would it take off? Maybe I misunderstood the situation, but this in no way proves anything in my book... but was a good laugh.... :bashhead:

No no no, that was not the question at all. In fact, the conveyor cannot keep the plane in the same spot. If the runway is zipping backwards at 300 mph, the plane will still roll forward when you gas it. Of course, friction plays a small part, and causes the plane to want to roll backwards. So for this experiment, let us say they are frictionless bearings. With these bearings, the conveyor could be going back ward at 100,000 mph, and the plane would still move forward and have to take off as normal.

Never said anything about being able to take off from a virtual stand still.
Speaking of which, 18 foot take off!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFVN3fV1hdc&mode=related&search=
 

Berry_Coughin'

Active member
Veteran
I am with ya now, this is where I was--------> plane at idle to match rate of conveyor to bring plane to a standstill..(happy medium/balance).... now pull up, will it take off???? <-----end of visualization...... hehehe... sorry I took ya for a loop..... :D
 

Pops

Resident pissy old man
Veteran
The plane will not take off because,if Tark brings this thread up again, I will hire 2 terrorists with RPGs to blow its wings off. No wings---- no lift----no take off.
 
a windy day would be more helpful than a conveyor belt...

in a controlled situation a plane could take off from a dead stop in 100+ mph wind. The ONLY speed that matters is the plane relative to the air (which gives the lift necessary for flight).
 
G

Guest

i will split the cost with you to hire them :joint:
Pops said:
The plane will not take off because,if Tark brings this thread up again, I will hire 2 terrorists with RPGs to blow its wings off. No wings---- no lift----no take off.
 
Maybe I'm missing something, but if the plane is not moving relative to the air around it, the wings will not generate lift.... therefore a plane on a treadmill cannot take off.
 

Tarkus

Mother Nature's Son
Veteran
I know, shame on Tarkus for bringing up old (and controversial) stuff, but hey....bygones can't just be bygones.
Farmer, why would the plane not being moving relative to the air around it?? What would prevent it from doing this??
 
If the plane moves at the same speed as the treadmill, then an observer standing next to the treadmill will observe the plane to be stationary. The air around the plane is in the same reference frame as the observer. I'm no aviation expert, but a stationary plane cannot take off....
 

Grat3fulh3ad

The Voice of Reason
Veteran
Tarkus said:
I know, shame on Tarkus for bringing up old (and controversial) stuff, but hey....bygones can't just be bygones.
Farmer, why would the plane not being moving relative to the air around it?? What would prevent it from doing this??

nothing
 

Grat3fulh3ad

The Voice of Reason
Veteran
the treadmill cannot prevent the propellor from pulling the plane forward... even if it moves much faster than the plane...
 

Bob Labla

Member
ummm no. an airplane has lift because of the air passing over the wings. if the the conveyor belt is negating the speed of the airplane than the wings are always in the same position. so no wind would pass over them, and no life could be created without an extremely swift wind.
 
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