Phylloxera information - aka root mites aka root aphids

[clowntown]

By the way... how did you guys apply the Bug Buster-O (or other pyrethrin-based products)? I did it by pouring about 1/3 gallon of BBO solution (40%, or ~1tbsp/gal) through a 2-gallon pot of coco. Got a decent amount runoff (medium was already moist/wet). Then roughly an hour later, I flushed a few times with a nutrient solution, and emptied the runoff right away (you can smell the petroleum distillates). Maybe plain water would have been better?

 

[clowntown]

Been about 2 hours since the initial drench treatment. Just dug down to 2 inches deep in the medium of one of the plants, and see nothing but healthy roots now. Not even a sign of anything moving. I dug a 2" deep pit in that coco, and just stared at it for a solid 3-4 minutes from about 6" away.

I don't want to declare victory quite yet, considering what similar close-victories Scay Beez has been through, but right now this is the only thing that has shown to be effective.

For those of you who haven't tried it, I highly recommend you give Bug Buster-O (or other pyrethin-based product) a try. I have a feeling the petroleum distillates in this non-OMRI product has to be helping in a great way. Anything this foul smelling can't be good for a bug!

Tomorrow morning, all plants will be getting the BBO treatment. A 1/3 - 1/2 gallon drench, followed by a 45 minute soak / "burn in" time, followed by a rinse with plain water or nutrient solution. Then I will leave and let my apartment be ventilated for the next ~10 hours.

Hopefully this will be the end of it.

Oh yeah: nothing spotted on the sticky traps, so far.

Scay Beez, from reading your posts in this thread, it seems that BBO was one of the most effective you've tried so far, right? I couldn't really tell, but it sounded like Pyganic didn't work as well as BBO for you.

Do you feel that if you were to have continued with the BBO, and sprayed down all surfaces every 5-6 days, it would have helped?

How often were you dunking / drenching? What were your methods?

 

[S4vvy]

Be prepared to make back ups of the plants that are treated with BBO. There's a VERY high chance your plants are about to go thru some retardation, leaf drop, and symptoms of sever lockout.

Again it is not 100% effective. I've dunked cuts at times with 100% effectiveness and sometimes i've watched aphids dance in the 40% mix for hours until i just toss the mix. Dunked whole rootzones in the mix and still the aphids didn't die. If they've advanced to the flying stage you may as well give up the dunking. The flying ones are just gonna re-infest your rootzone with the new new

The best way to handle this is to totally toss the infested medium and plants. Between me and Scay Beez we've covered almost everything there is out there from beneficial to chemical. If you tossed everything and started over i wouldn't have to say this: Good luck

 

[clowntown]

S4vvy, at first tossing everything looked like a clear, easy option. But if they're that stubborn, it probably won't work for me since I grow/live in very close quarters and it would be near impossible for me to sanitize 100% and not miss one.

Fan leaves falling off, I can deal with. Retardation and lockouts, I'm not so sure.

Will getting rid of the medium do it? Or can they hide out in other inorganic places as well? How long should I keep the grow room unoccupied, so they don't jump back into the new medium and establish themselves again?

Scay Beez, do you plan on doing a pyrethrin bomb or other method of "sanitizing" after removing the medium, after your landlord inspection?

Anyways, thanks everyone for the terrific help and information so far. I drenched & rinsed all 11 plants this morning, and will be giving them another rinse-down when I get home. Results later in the evening.

 

[clowntown]

Things are looking real good right now. So far I haven't seen any bugs, and my plants appear to be more or less healthy including the babies that were started from seed roughly a month ago (in 3 qt pots, recently topped). Those small ones, I forgot to rinse this morning, but they also appear to be doing OK.

I only inspected one plant closely, one plant just kinda glanced over, and the rest I just assumed 'cuz I'm lazy.

The very bottom fan leaves of my Abusive OG is turning very pale / yellow and looks like it's about to fall off very soon.

If they don't look too bad, I think I'm gonna hit 'em with another dose in 4-6 days just in case. If they look iffy, I'll have to reconsider.

 

[Scay Beez]

s4vy has got it right with the bug-o-buster... take backups immediately!

Scay Beez, do you plan on doing a pyrethrin bomb or other method of "sanitizing" after removing the medium, after your landlord inspection?

Yes! I'm going to vacuum, steam vacuum, and clean the hell out of the room (h202), seal it, then bomb it probably multiple times (I have a death wish). I'm also going to release ladybugs (in a different room) while the cuts are rooting.

The reason I'm weary about a liquid pesticide working -> it separates from water when not mixed so how is it going to stay in proper dilution in every microgram of soil & droplet of water long enough to kill newborns? Some spots will dry out faster, some spots will contain more pesticide, some less pesticide, and possible spots that don't get wet. This is where the spread of a pesticide and its active period in the soil determine it's effectiveness against these monsters.

If you read at the "island site with the taco hut" there is a post about root aphids and Nspecta said "if Dusty tells you to use BOB, then he is pulling your leg."



- sbz

 

[clowntown]

Scay Beez, thanks. I couldn't seem to find that thread you were referring to, and couldn't seem to locate a bug-related thread by Nspecta on this board. Different site? Can you link, please?

I don't know Dusty Bowls well (or much at all), so I'm a bit confused on why he would pull someone's leg w/ a product?

This morning the plants weren't looking bad, but they did seem to have a bit of a "not so healthy" look to them. Hope it doesn't get worse, but after reading of others' experiences here, I'm sure it will.

As far as BBO not mixing well with water, that wasn't my experience at all. Unmixed, it's an amber/brown colored translucent liquid. When mixed with water, it instantly turns a cloudy, thick white and appears to mix well and evenly with water. The mixture (roughly 40% of the labeled rate) looked like watered-down milk, completely white.

I noticed that this stuff does leave quite a residue. I poured out my runoff into my sink, and it left a white-ish film that wouldn't wash away easily. After a couple of rinse-offs, my coco pots still smell a bit like gasoline.

I can't sanitize to anywhere near the level that you are planning on, since I eat, live and sleep right next to my HydroHut. So I'm not really sure if starting over from clone will help anything for me, if they'll just come right back from the one or two I missed. If the BBO really proves to be ineffective for me as well, then I will just have to move elsewhere and start fresh... along with a hard-learned lesson.

Thanks everyone for all the great help and info so far.

I'm just hoping and praying that growing in coco is giving me the edge here in being able to more frequently apply dosages if/when I want, and that I have a different, weaker species or a different insect altogether that's easily wiped out by BBO.

 

[halloweed2006]

Ok halloweed2006 reporting in.

Success!!!!!

I must say my soil drench and continued foliar spray and copious layers of diatomaceous earth have killed nearly all pests in the room.

"Root Aphid Annihilation soil drench 1.0"

My soil drench is composed of 40% of the recommended dose of BBO(pyrethrin) which in one gallon of water is 24 ml/gal, + 12 ml/gal einstein oil + 1.5 ml/gal of dr bronner's soap (no salt!). I did just one complete flush of every plant with the above combination.

Every 2 days since then I've been doing foliar sprays with an einstein/soap/organocide or einstein/soap/safrergro pest out combination.

All plants were given some additional spiked armour in the form of a quarter inch of diatomaceous earth top soil. And all future mediums are now having DE amended into their compositions.

So a week later and I can't detect any aphids anywhere.
As a side effect I've only been able to locate one living ladybug, I used to have hundreds But I don't really give a fuck as those lady bugs couldn't do shit against root aphids.

The mixture definitely works but the BBO is hell on my plants, especially the canary like sativas. Even at 40% of the recommended dose I'm seeing nearly unacceptable levels of leaf death and what appears some minor deficiencies.

But don't get me wrong this is much better then seeing my plants keeling over and dying from the the little terminators that I sent to hell.

The BBO is brutal, but it's just so potent. I think that saved my garden at the cost of some minor damage to the plants, well worth it. The BBO provides the knock out and the neem keeps them from coming back and re-establishing.

I talked to my hydro guy and says other people have had success with BBO for root aphids, so it's something that's unfortunately required in our arsenal against aphids.

Eistein oil is a very pure version of neem oil and contains more Azadirachtins and other insecticidal chemecials in ppms then other brands of neem oil.

Because I've had root aphids I will continue to do soil drenches and foliar sprays but with less frequency. Good luck to anyone who has this problem, just know that it can be overcome it just takes persistence and using the right products and right dosages.

 

[clowntown]

Not so much leaf death, but I'm starting to see some deficiencies as well. My treatment was almost the same as yours (Einstein oil, BBO, DE, among with others) but not all at the same time like you.

So far almost 2 days later, I'm not seeing any signs of bugs.

How much time will you pass before doing a 2nd application?

 

[halloweed2006]

It all depends on how strong the plants look. I need the plants to look just a bit better before I hit them with another drench. I really wish i would of done this weeks ago when I first noticed the flyers, but I assumed I just had a harmless fungus gnat infestation(prolly one of the easiest bugs to deal with).

I think by next Saturday the plants will be fine with another drench. So nearly 1.5 weeks after my first drench i'll give them one more drench and then be on the look out for any pests.

 

[clowntown]

I feel the exact same way.

 

[Scay Beez]

My leaves really didn't fall off big time until a week later. If your plants are healthy they very well could take a few doses of BOB.

halloweed2006: We'll sit back another week or two and observe. I tried to fix the problem with muscle (dunking every 2-3 days for multiple months.. 120 plants) and it just gave me back aches and root rot.

How much time will you pass before doing a 2nd application?

I was doing it every 2-3 days.


- sbz

 

[clowntown]

It's been about a week since the Bug Buster-O application, and I'm here to tell you with disappointment that like Scay Beez, S4vvy, and others before me, I've also failed.

Today I dug up under the coco to find a few more of these things, after a decent length of disappearance. I'm guessing these were from unhatched eggs (does pyretherins kill eggs? didn't sound like it from reading), possibly ones that were almost-hatching at the time of application.

The plants aren't looking terribly sexy, either. They're not looking bad, but they're not looking great either. Can't tell if it's the HPS, but it seems like they're a noticeable different shade than normal. Some bottom fan leaves yellowed severely, some didn't, some had a "burnt" look, and even some rare few top leaves had an odd burnt / deficient look to them. Overall, they seem to be screaming "please dad, don't hit us with another dose of BBO".

If I'm right about these being from unhatched eggs, and that repeated treatments will eradicate them (at least from my apartment & grow tent, for now), this means that another 1-2 applications should take care of the problem.

But I have a feeling it's not, because my problems / symptoms and treatment pattern followed by results look surprisingly identical to Scay Beez / S4vvy's results... at first with excitement, then later defeated with failure and exhausted.

I really can't decide what to be doing right now. Whether to:

• Give them another harsh application and hope for the best, while I'm sure stunting and stressing these plants out like hell...
• Flower them out and hope for the best, and just move somewhere else after sanitizing all my equipment.
• Cut my losses now, and do the best I can at sanitizing although I have a feeling this will be impossible since I also live here.

I have roughly 8 weeks remaining in flower. I'm leaning towards #2.

 

[halloweed2006]

What's up clowntown. I was going to post tomorrow when I give the plants another neem drench, but I'll do it now because the more info that is out there on ROOT APHIDS the better.

Yes I still have root ahpids and I can tell because I'm noticing about 5-10 flyers a night. This is infinitely better then the 100-200 flyers I was seeing nightly before starting the treatment plan. BBO and neem work very well at managing the problem, but it's still up in the air if it will completely cure it. I deduce that's because these root aphids have one of the best defenses in the world, they're under 1-5 gallons of soil!

My plants also look like shit and the BBO certainly didn't help with that, but the bug popluation is decreasing, can't argue with results my friends.. I think with diligence and smart and persistant treatment schedule, eventually the aphids will disappear or at least the damage to yeilds will be minimal and for some people such as myself acceptable.

I also bought a product called "Aphid Chaser". http://www.arbico-organics.com/1281501.html. I'm a little paranoid of using it because it may contain chemicals that are harmful to myself or the species of plants I grow. But if the aphids begin gaining numbers on me, i'm busting these mother fuckers out.

So with the population decreasing and my spirits relatively high, i'll continue to keep u faithful ic members informed.

-halloweed2006

 

[clowntown]

I agree the population is definitely down, but at what cost? I'm not sure I can call this a worthwhile treatment if I have to repeat it every crop.

I am considering shopping for a new apartment soon. This much of a headache and abuse to my plants doesn't seem to be worth the risk of re-infestation. . .

 

[halloweed2006]

Hmm. I live in north cali, and so no matter what I think i'll be seeing this pest sooner or later so I'd like to find a way to deal with it instead of moving to a different apartment everytime I get infected. I know a few people in real life up in this neck of the woods that have experienced the same thing, so the above scenerio isn't unlikely.

Pretty much the cleanest grow ups get pests, mites, whatever, people just have to keep on top of it. It's a part of the job in this part of the world.

 

[clowntown]

I don't know about that. I live in NorCal, and I know plenty of people who don't have them as well. I don't think weekly harsh treatments that fuck up plants are the way to go. Hopefully Scay Beez' buddy releasing this article will be able to draw up some better solutions.

For all you know, this could be some genetically engineered pest that's been bred to attack specifically marijuana plants, and released in NorCal as an initial test!

Anyways, I just remembered this now ... While digging up some medium this past week to monitor for bug activity, I do remember seeing what looked suspiciously like bug eggs mixed in the medium. Tiniest of the tiniest flecks, but I thought they looked clear/amber/orange in color and round, unlike any coco fleck. I didn't give much thought to it at the time besides a general suspicion, because I thought my problems were solved. But it might make sense that these eggs were easily viable and survived the treatment.

So on second thought, I'm starting to think maybe another treatment is in order right now, and another in 3-4 days instead of a week.

It seems though I have NO flyers. Nothing I can see, anyways. I did catch like, 3 tiny, tiny ones of what appeared to be winged gnats (???) on the sticky trap, but I have no idea. It was black, and tiny.

 

[Scay Beez]

Pretty much the cleanest grow ups get pests, mites, whatever, people just have to keep on top of it. It's a part of the job in this part of the world.

I couldn't have said it better. I obsessively compulsively clean my room like a scientist with a passion and they slipped past me with ease.

The bugs are hungry and when the weather starts getting cool outside they're gonna find a way to survive. Quarantine any new plants/strains before bringing them near your room and be careful where you buy your soil. Better yet - just bring in cuts (no roots or soil) that have been dunked and held underwater for a few minutes. Only buy soil from companies that sell good amounts of it (so it isn't sitting around long) and keep it indoors and not around their nursery plants.


- sbz

 

[clowntown]

I just had a thought.

I remember reading a while back about how killing mycorhizzae (if you use/have it) can be especially harmful to the plants, since it will leave a lot of root surfaces open (where the mycorhizzae was once attached) and more easily open to infection / attack.

I'm guessing pyrethrins on plants with mycorhizzae is even worse than without.

Any thoughts on that?

 

[clowntown]

I'm also curious how many people have this and don't even realize it. I wonder because I found out by accident, and could have easily gone unnoticed for ... who knows.

Damn. I would encourage all of you to ask all of your growing friends to check their medium very carefully (and stare for long periods if necessary, even if they feel stupid doing it).

What a ing pain in the

...

I'm just now starting week 4 (of 11) and they're starting to frost up. I'd really hate to start over now, the plants look otherwise good above-surface. Except for the damage done by Bug Buster-O. I can totally see what you mean now, Scay Beez by the lower fan leaves falling off after a week. And S4vvy's description of serious lockout on some leaves, yeah.

The last time I peeked at the roots down the sides of the pots, less than a week ago, they looked pretty good. Gotta check tomorrow.