Phylloxera information - aka root mites aka root aphids

[clowntown]

Seems I misunderstood the use and application of DE, yesterday. After reading issack's thread, where he says he "waters it in", I had assumed it was meant to be used that way. Upon picking up the DE today, I noticed the box said something along the lines of it being effective when dry. So yeah, now I can see why DE can be ineffective in that case.

If these things don't go away easily, I'm gonna skip the BugBuster O, take your advice and scrap the crop and start fresh. I have the genetics backed up so it's not a problem, just a little backtrack and a bit of annoyance.

But even with all that, it's nice and comforting to know that you have extremely knowledgeable and experienced folks here to back you up.

Thanks for this awesome thread. Look forward to seeing that article!

 

[clowntown]

One the plant that I felt was most heavily affected by these, dug up some medium from the top 1-2" of the surface with a fork, and looked again for these suckers. I took a bit of searching but I found a few, and I sprinkled DE all over their area to see if it had any effect. Now this was moist, but not *wet* coco, meaning that most of the DE stayed dry even after sprinkling. I saw the little things walk across it, but didn't seem to have any effect on them!! I sprinkled it directly on top of a couple of others that happened to be on the plastic of the pots, and they also seemed unfazed by it! I watched for 10-20 more seconds (as long as I could follow them) to see if they would stop, slow down, or anything, but nothing.

Good news is that it seems these things are becoming harder to find. But I was curious, so I sacrificed this plant, the one I felt had the most visible bugs. Ironically, it seems that the healthiest and largest ones are the ones that happen to have more of them, but I think that's just by coincidence and by sentimental attachment given the small sample size.

Anyways, I pulled the entire plant out of the pot and inspected the roots top to bottom, all sides. I couldn't really see any more than 1 of these things crawling, and that was at the very bottom of the pot. Then I cracked open the medium, bottom-up. Nothing to really speak of at the bottom, except white, normally-healthy looking roots... and further up, I was able to spot a few of these tiny bugs near the very center of the rootball, where they seemed to be more concentrated. But even there, after digging I wasn't able to find as many as I had feared there would be.

Maybe the neem applications have been keeping things under control? Or does neem have any effect on them at all, and just by coincidence that the infestation isn't that bad yet? I'm pretty sure it came from the pot of wet coco with dead roots in it. How they got to that pot and how long they've been there, I don't know, but for certain the reused coco was CRAWLING with them so I know that was the source relative to this run.

I'm really afraid to try this BugBuster O stuff. I'd rather just start over, but from what I've seen of this plant it doesn't seem bad at all and almost promising. I sprinkled quite a bit of DE on the surface, though, anyways. (Hope it doesn't mess with the pH too much.)

 

[clowntown]

How long can these things survive w/o roots, or medium, or whatever? What are their dependencies?

In other words... if starting over, how long should you wait to make sure every egg, baby and adult that might have somehow gotten away, are dead?

I just now read this entire thread, every word of every post, and have a much bigger fear for it than I did before.

Is it a good thing to be able to keep the roots wet with pesticides (perhaps neem oil in this case)? Because growing in coco, I think I have that (dis)advantage of being able to keep the medium wet w/o root rot.

Also, as a side note: how dangerous is Floramite SC? Is it really that unsafe to apply without serious protective gear? I ask because I applied it once (with gloves, and didn't make much contact, but may have had some contact) but my garden is in a HydroHut in my bedroom, so it has me worrying. Especially about breathing it in. I shut off the oscillating fan afterwards, but kept the ventilation fan on because I didn't even really think about it. (During lights out.)

 

[halloweed2006]

Hi, i'm an organic's moonshine grower and i'm joining this thread. I have one massive aphid and root rot infestation in my whole flower room. These green terminators are everywhere. I refuse to give up and let these fuckers win. Scaybee, i'm sorry to hear you chop man, maybe i can find a way to eliminate a full blown large scale organic infestation.

Today i'm going to get some botanigard and neem and begin attacking the aphids. In addition to this I'll be getting some diatomaceous earth and some type aphid predator, i'm leaning towards the Aphid midge. I'm still looking for a solid solution to my root rot infection.

 

[clowntown]

Good jeebus!! Now I see a few black, winged insects... definitely not flies. They look like they could be fungus gnats from the pictures in MynameStitch's thread, or the other black bugs from this thread. Definitely all-black body and legs, as sbz describes his.

Will sticky-traps help? Sounds like sbz didn't have too much luck with them, but if they are fungus gnats then I'm sure they would help. I guess they can breed and reproduce while under the medium?

I can't say for sure as I've seen TINY worms in the past in the medium, although haven't been able to find any recently after the nematode application (although just less than a week ago). Even with continuous neem (every 2-3 days) applications to the surface, I can't seem to get rid of these little crawling things that look like microscopic amber beetles so far.

Should I cover the foliage as well? I don't think I see any damage there yet.

 

[halloweed2006]

Good jeebus!! Now I see a few black, winged insects... definitely not flies. They look like they could be fungus gnats from the pictures in MynameStitch's thread, or the other black bugs from this thread. Definitely all-black body and legs, as sbz describes his.

Those are the winged females, aphids only begin getting wings when an infestation has reached critical mass and the plant isn't producing enough food for them. You need to take care of the problem asap. Neem oil and liquid pyrethen drenches every other day for 6 treatments. Use Diatomaceous earth to completely cover the top of your soil so flyers can't spread to plants or land in your plant and lay more eggs. I'd also use alternating treaments of SaferGro pest out and organocide for foilar spraying to kill the flyers and those root aphids that climb up the stems in search of more food. Right now I'm on treatment day 1 of the above plan, i'll be sure to let everyone know how it goes.

 

[Scay Beez]

halloweed2006: I tried two months of Azatrol every other day with no luck. I also combined Pyganic and Azatrol for another month with no luck. Watch out for when the root rot starts to set in after all those drenches. I wish you the best of luck but I have yet to meet anybody who has successfully killed them off. Even using the bayer tree and shrub which is supposed to be a systematic 12 months extended release pesticide didn't completely kill them (held them off great though!).


- sbz

 

[halloweed2006]

Scay Beez: Thanks for the words, I look up to you as I know your a skilled organics farmer, and this is my first grow and I'm all about the organics and naturally fighting off these monsters. I live in north cali and I think these root aphids are hard on us north cali growers because the vineyards bring them in.

I'm not sure if I ever will completely kill them off but if I can keep them from doing any real damage then I'll be happy. I hope after I get the poplutation under control that bi-monthly neem drenchs will keep the plants in good condition. If I combine neem drenchs with making sure every plant is topdressed in DE, then I don't see how their could be significant damages to my yield and or quality. Anway on to day two, i'm about to see the flower room and i hope there are no flyers on my recently put up sticky traps. More to come in my campaign against the root aphids. Victory will be mine!

 

[clowntown]

halloweed2006, how's your treatment plan going so far?

Scay Beez, just in case: did you get your Bayer Tree & Shrub at a local retail store, or online? What types of local stores might carry it?

To summarize... so far, I've tried with no success:

• Einstein Oil (neem) - many media applications, 1 foliar
• Floramite SC (when I had no idea what they were) - 1 application, foliar + media
• Spinosad - many media, 1 foliar
• Diatomaceous Earth - Dry sprinkled application to surface + forked into first 1/2" or so, plus later wet application by watering in; 1 application
• Predator Nematodes - 2 applications of 1 million nematodes

I'm going to try some Bug Buster-O tomorrow (pyrethrins). Fuck I hope I don't have to get any BotaniGard or Bayer Tree & Shrub.

Luckily (?), I'm growing in coco and the root rot will hopefully not be an issue for me.

Do these evil mofos go away during the summer or any season?

The good news is that I'm pretty well-armed for a wide range of pest attacks in the future. Assuming I fight this one off.

Even if I can't get rid of it, I think this Bayer Tree & Shrub sounds promising as long as it doesn't have an ill effect on the plants (or you). That way they have minimal damage and yield not even be affected by it. Need to do more research on this first tho.

I will also get some sticky traps and a potato (slice it up, place it on the surface) to monitor infestation level. It seems like just when you have it under control, they come out again. s-i-g-h

 

[clowntown]

halloweed2006, how's your treatment plan going so far?

Scay Beez, just in case: did you get your Bayer Tree & Shrub at a local retail store, or online? What types of local stores might carry it?

To summarize... so far, I've tried with no success:

• Einstein Oil (neem) - many media applications, 1 foliar
• Floramite SC (when I had no idea what they were) - 1 application, foliar + media
• Spinosad - many media, 1 foliar
• Diatomaceous Earth - Dry sprinkled application to surface + forked into first 1/2" or so, plus later wet application by watering in; 1 application
• Predator Nematodes - 2 applications of 1 million nematodes

I'm going to try some Bug Buster-O tomorrow (pyrethrins). Fuck I hope I don't have to get any BotaniGard or Bayer Tree & Shrub.

Luckily (?), I'm growing in coco and the root rot will hopefully not be an issue for me.

Do these evil mofos go away during the summer or any season?

The good news is that I'm pretty well-armed for a wide range of pest attacks in the future. Assuming I fight this one off.

Even if I can't get rid of it, I think this Bayer Tree & Shrub sounds promising as long as it doesn't have an ill effect on the plants (or you). That way they have minimal damage and yield not even be affected by it. Need to do more research on this first tho.

I will also get some sticky traps and a potato (slice it up, place it on the surface) to monitor infestation level. It seems like just when you have it under control, they come out again. s-i-g-h

 

[Scay Beez]

clowntown: I never had any flying ones thank goodness. Aphids are attracted to the color blue. Sticky traps are always good to have around. I got the Bayer Tree and Shrub at homedepot (I hate endorsing any corporations.. fuck em all). I'd only use this as a last resort. I'd go with Pyganic or Safer's Soap before doing the bug-o-buster... that stuff will mess your plants up. Coco seems to be a worse medium unfortunately because it holds moisture and makes root rot worse of an issue. I root trimmed my plants eventually (when I knew there were sufficient roots) and put them in a lighter soil that dries out faster and that definitely helped.

halloweed2006: Big thanks for the kind words! Some strains seem to be more sensitive to having their roots munched on than others. My purple indica (picky, landrace, aggressive root structure) crapped out super fast and this one kali mist indica cut was the only one in the whole room that didn't show any major signs of being effected at all (grew normal, growth tips coming in full, roots white and healthy). My moms are also in small pots being kept bonsai style so less root mass to munch on. This is the big problem with keeping moms bonsai style... the opposite of crop rotation.
I battled them for four months asking professionals in the wine growing industry (chemical, organic, and biodynamic), other pro MJ growers, every gardening store north of san francisco, pesticide companies, agriculture departments of universities around the area and everyone that knew what I was talking about told me to surrender. Those that weren't familiar with this insect acted like they were fungus gnats. I'm not trying to discourage you, I'm saying don't be hardheaded like me. One thing that I didn't get to try (I ran out of money) was using multiple species of nematodes and trying to take them out (a species that dwells near the top and one that dwells near the bottom. Also using ladybugs with the HID lights off to get anything that forms wings. These would have to be applied several times to ensure complete coverage and catch newborns. Maybe worth a try?

aphids only begin getting wings when an infestation has reached critical mass and the plant isn't producing enough food for them.

I believe this to be true because I haven't seen any flyers yet and my numbers haven't gotten significant. I still have to stare for a long time to see any of them.

My damn landlord needs to hurry the fuck up and get this house inspection done so I can do a soil evacuation.


- sbz

 

[clowntown]

About 5 minutes ago I drenched the roots with a roughly-40% solution of Bug Buster-O (labeled rate is 2.5tbsp per gal, so I did roughly 1 tbsp per gal). I didn't know if it'd matter, but I first pH'd the water to about 6.0, and then added 1tbsp BBO (didn't pH afterwards). Turned out to an opaque, milky-white liquid.

Used that 1 gallon to drench 3 (out of 11) 2 gallon plants, with plenty of runoff. I dug a little under the surface to make sure I could see a few moving tiny bugs, first, so I can confirm whether this works or not.

In about a half hour I think I will flush that medium out with some fresh water, possibly nutrient solution and see where it goes from there.

Scay Beez, what type of f'd-up-ness did you see besides bottom fan leaves falling off after a week?

I couldn't find any Pyganic at my local hydro store (where I got the BBO), and I will go to the Bayer Tree & Shrub as a last resort per your recommendations.

Looks like I got the wrong color sticky traps! (Yellow). Said aphids on 'em.

I'll let you guys know how things go. Since this is supposedly fast-acting, I should have results fairly soon.

Re: coco-wetness. If I'm not mistaken, one of the features of coco allows you to keep the medium wetter (once roots are established) w/o root rot or low oxygen, making it very difficult to over-water.

 

[clowntown]

About 10-15 minutes later, I scratched under the surface, and I'm still seeing one tiny bug here and there. I think I also saw some tiny, tiny off-white-ish worm or somesuch, but I can't be sure. (I did 2 rounds of predator nematodes a week ago, so what gives?)

It feels like I'm seeing less, but might just be placebo effect and/or coincidence.

Didn't Dusty Bowls say he had good luck with Bug Buster O?

I will give it another 15-20 minutes, and then drench those pots with nutrient solution to wash out some of the pyrethins...

I may also consider trying a 100% solution on a plant or two, if this 40% solution doesn't seem to do the job.

 

[clowntown]

I believe this to be true because I haven't seen any flyers yet and my numbers haven't gotten significant. I still have to stare for a long time to see any of them.

Today I haven't been able to locate any flyers. The other day for sure I saw at least 2-3, but it was hard to track with the fan blowing in there.

I also still have to stare for a long time to see any of them, but if I scratch about 1" or so under the surface with a fork (especially after recent watering), I can find a couple within a minute.

 

[clowntown]

About 10-15 minutes later, I scratched under the surface, and I'm still seeing one tiny bug here and there. I think I also saw some tiny, tiny off-white-ish worm or somesuch, but I can't be sure. (I did 2 rounds of predator nematodes a week ago, so what gives?)

It feels like I'm seeing less, but might just be placebo effect and/or coincidence.

Didn't Dusty Bowls say he had good luck with Bug Buster O?

I will give it another 15-20 minutes, and then drench those pots with nutrient solution to wash out some of the pyrethins...

I may also consider trying a 100% solution on a plant or two, if this 40% solution doesn't seem to do the job.

I believe this to be true because I haven't seen any flyers yet and my numbers haven't gotten significant. I still have to stare for a long time to see any of them.

Today I haven't been able to locate any flyers. The other day for sure I saw at least 2-3, but it was hard to track with the fan blowing in there.

I also still have to stare for a long time to see any of them, but if I scratch about 1" or so under the surface with a fork (especially after recent watering), I can find a couple within a minute.

 

[clowntown]

Ok so after about a ~45 minute "soak", I rinsed it out with the normal nutrient solution... rinsed with about as much nutrient solution (roughly 2L per 2 gal pot).

I'll be checking the surface for results every half hour to an hour for the next few hours, and also monitor the plant's health status.

 

[clowntown]

Sorry about the multiple posts, guys, but I'll try to keep my (long) posts separate with the most important details near the top, so people can track the status more easily.

It's been roughly an hour since I started the Bug Buster-O drench, and roughly 10 minutes since the "rinse". Digging up to an inch deep below the medium, as I've done before, I see NOTHING MOVING. I don't see any dead bugs, either, but then again that'd be near impossible trying to find a dead bug mixed in there (smaller than the size of a fleck of coco) and identify it as such.

Will post another update in about an hour. At that time I will also check the un-treated plants, and compare the difference. I will be doing the same thing tomorrow morning.

If the plants look unharmed from this and the bugs are dying, I will be treating all the plants in a day or two.

Re: petroleum distillates... yes, the bottle definitely says "contains petroleum distillates" and definitely smells a bit like gasoline!

 

[Mr Celsius]

pyrethins have a half life of 12 days (I think) in soil. So they will go away after 5 generations, so 60 days.

 

[clowntown]

I know it hasn't been an hour, but...

Another quick check-up on those 3 plants resulted in NO bugs of any kind. Things are looking pretty good, but I'm not going to celebrate & relax just yet.

Just gave them another rinse-down with nutes (no BBO), and in about half an hour to an hour will give all the plants one more feeding/watering.

I'll provide another status update in the morning, if not sooner.

 

[clowntown]

If you're wondering what petroleum distillates are, and how it may affect you:

http://www.safe2use.com/poisons-pesticides/pesticides/pyrethrum/pyrethrum-about.htm
http://www.livingwithbugs.com/botanical_insecticide.html

It sounds like use of these in indoor applications are generally discouraged. Although many hydro shops and other pro-pyrethrin based sites / information sources lead you to believe that pyrethrins are completely safe ("it's natural!"), I'm slowly finding out that it's anything but. (Just because it's natural doesn't mean it's safe; wanna try some snake venom?) The petroleum distillates makes it that much worse.

I guess, if you're gonna be using it indoors like me, and in close quarters (my bed right next to my HydroHut), at least make sure your place is well-ventilated! Better yet, might not be a bad thing to plan a day out w/ windows open, after an application.



Sigh.

I guess this means I'll check out the plants in the morning, and if they don't look terrible (and no bugs), I'll treat all of them before going to work, in order to provide the maximum amount of ventilation time.