Phylloxera information - aka root mites aka root aphids

[bobs your uncle]

SBZ- How does the Imidacloprid actually work? Is the chemical taken up by the roots and dispersed thru out the plant? Does it kill the bugs when they eat the plant or does it just repel them and thus protecting the plant. It might take a while to see any effects but it does sound promising, especially if used prophylactically at the beginning of a grow.

Starting yesterday, any new medium (Canna coco for me) gets microwaved before use. NO EXCEPTIONS. "ooh, but you'll kill off any beneficial organisms if you sterilize it that way" That's the idea, KILL EVERYTHING. I'm more than willing to sacrifice the beneficial myco's in an effort to have a bug free grow again. Besides, the Chloramine in my water has probably been killing the bene's whether I like it or not. Now the trick is totally quarantine the new sterile containers from the infested ones. I might have to deal with these buggers one more run until I can cycle out all the old infested coco and the moms in moonshine mix. The MOMS! what to do with the moms? bummer

What a fcuking hassle. No wonder the TWO bottles of Gnatrol and the six mosquito dunks didn't do chit.

What was that chemical pesticide back in the 60's or 70's that caused birth defects, DMT or something like that. Does it work? I'll try it..... just kidding.

 

[Scay Beez]

The Imidacloprid is chlorinated nicotine. I have been using Advantage for my cat because it gets bad ear mites and cats are known to have very sensitive livers. bob's your uncle: If you want to use the atomic bombs they are Avid and Floramite. Not safe to apply yourself without a respirator, mask, and chemical suit. H202 probably wouldn't kill the adults and in high concentrations will f-ck the soil structure up.

I threw another plant to experimentation and put 1 Tsp of Imidacloprid on it.. getting impatient.


- sbz

 

[Scay Beez]

I just got off the phone with United Agri Products, a major pesticide company, and Admire Pro is the ONLY pesticide in California with root aphids listed on its label. It's active ingredient is Imidacloprid. Floramite SC and Avid are NOT listed to control root aphids. I'm not sure if they will even work. The lady also mentioned that Phylloxera DO eat the roots of other plants including tomatoes. I guess I wasn't completely off my rocker.

The plants I tested with it already have normal looking new growth even though my temps are in the high 50's low 60s.. a sign of hope!

Endosulphan is the only other chemical that I could find after reading damn near every single aphid page on the internet.

some thoughts:

Prevention seems to be the key with these insects. Starting before fall beneficials must be established and botanical oils (cottonseed/clove/garlic extract/wintergreen oil/thyme oil) can be used weekly to prevent them from setting up base in the soil. Preventative sprays with neem will also help to control infestations. Having a hepa filter on the air intake of one's room and sterilizing any foreign plant material before entering the room is key. Pyrethrum root dunks/drenches are the way to go if the plants are not too badly damaged (I highly recommend Pyganic). Once they are damaged enough then one must use the nasty chems if plants are to be saved. Some of my plants are beyond dunking so I must unfortunately resort to Imidacloprid. They now sell the Bayer Tree and Shrub in Granules so I can brush them off (with multiple layers of rubber gloves) when done with treatment and time for a root trim. The pesticide will stay in the plant which is a good and bad thing. I figure with as much as I root trim and take cuttings that it can't stay in the plant for too long.

For an extra speedy organic root recovery:

Hygrozyme (I didn't have time to make my own), Coco-Cat, Trichoderma harzium & Trichoderma koningii, Yucca, and of course compost (and/or beneficial bacteria and fungus inoculants).

• Hygrozyme will eat dead roots to prevent root rot
• Coco-Cat is a coconut milk extract that works very well with watering stress
• Trichodermas will colonize roots, protect them, and make them grow ridiculously fast (amazing stuff)
• Yucca - Watering stress, root stress, catalyst

I have spent so much time (holidays, what??) and a good amount of money on this so I hope this helps everyone. I'd still like to hear if anyone has used Floramite or Avid successfully. Sad day when an organic nerd must resort to the big guns but genetics must be preserved. Combined with Nspecta/Dusty's advice I'd say this pretty much covers it.


peace,

- sbz

 

[jaykush]

so the nematodes didn't work or what? i was sure that home culture method would take them out. after a few waves of nematodes id figure anything moving in the soil would be dead. have you tried beneficial mites? i had a problem with these pests in my compost cant even say what they were. whenever i tried it on a plant they would go to it fill the soil and **** it up. well someone gave me some beneficial mites (don't know which kind didn't ask) took those ****ers out, even the gnats and all other things that weren't beneficial (didn't touch the springtails but there good guys), they even jumped on me and i could feel tiny pricks. the gnats were covered with them couldn't walk or fly and then a week later they all took off when there was no pests left.

 

[bobs your uncle]

SBZ- If the internet wasn't "virtual", you and I would be bumping into each other a lot lately, as I have been doing nothing but researching way's to eradicate these f u c k e r s. I too came to the conclusion that Bayer's Admire Pro or Admire 2 (California?) are the big guns for these aphids. My only concern with the Admire products and Imidacloprid in general is that it seems like it might take awhile to have any effect. I could be wrong, I guess it doesn't mater where the aphids ingest the poison, be it on foliage, or roots as long as they ingest it right. And it lasts for how long, a whole season?

Admire pro - 42.8% Imidacloprid
Admire 2 - 21.4% "
Bayer Tree & Shrub - 1.47% is this going to be strong enough?

I'll be harvesting some Bubba over the next couple of days that were/are absolutely infested with them so I'll have a chance to get a good look at the roots and any damage they caused. As far as visible damage to the Bubba thus far, it's hard to say as this is my first run with it, I mean nothing's keeled over and died on me, ..yet.

I noticed them two months ago at the beginning of flower. The floor in my flower room is white, so it's pretty easy to spot things that aren't supposed to be there. Thought it was loose coco at first, but that didn't make any sense, I don't "splash" coco around with my dripper set up. Took a closer look and what looked like pepper scattered on the floor was fricking moving. Anyways, long story short is that for the last two months I had been applying Gnatrol and dunks thinking that the little crawlies were baby gnats without wings yet. So they have been multiplying unchecked for this whole grow basically, up until last week when I took a magnifying glass to one of my pots and just froze with disbelief. I shhit you not, the coco was absolutely teeming with them, stacked on top of each other, solid crawling coco. I posted a pic earlier in the thread above, of the drain area on one of my tables, thats the PG-13 version. I'm embarrassed to show anybody the R and XXX rated versions of that same drain. Guaranteed to induce vomiting.

So yeah, I'm verrrry interested in any info regarding the eradication of this pest.

 

[Scay Beez]

bobs your uncle: It works damn fast. Those clones I tested earlier already have new growth, its damn cold in my room, and they are rootbound even (scared to root trim).

jaykush: Fellow OFC warrior. You are witnessing a dark moment (chemmy one.. yuck!). If you catch them early on (I never knew such evil existed) then the nematodes can kill the babies. I'm not convinced that they can kill the adults, and the adults can grow wings. Unfortunately nematodes aren't considered complete control. That's where lacewings or ladybugs in nature would step in but those don't work well indoors. Nobody knows crap about these bugs so I got the wrong type of nematodes (oatmeal culturing works great.. pics in the future). Everything is listed for aphids but not root aphids or phylloxera. Heterorhabditis bacteriophora or Steinernema feltiae are the correct nematode species to use. The latter being better if you can lower your room temps (slows bugs & plants down). I haven't tried the beneficial mites because they are not complete control either because of the potential winged adult stage. I'm kinda at the point of no return unfortunately. I have exhausted every resource I can imagine.


- sbz

 

[jaykush]

hmmm that sucks. ill do a bit of research see if i can find something. makes me sad to hear of such evil, hopefully when i move up north i don't encounter them.

 

[BuddahBoyee]

SBZ- If the internet wasn't "virtual", you and I would be bumping into each other a lot lately, as I have been doing nothing but researching way's to eradicate these f u c k e r s. I too came to the conclusion that Bayer's Admire Pro or Admire 2 (California?) are the big guns for these aphids. My only concern with the Admire products and Imidacloprid in general is that it seems like it might take awhile to have any effect. I could be wrong, I guess it doesn't mater where the aphids ingest the poison, be it on foliage, or roots as long as they ingest it right. And it lasts for how long, a whole season?

Admire pro - 42.8% Imidacloprid
Admire 2 - 21.4% "
Bayer Tree & Shrub - 1.47% is this going to be strong enough?

I'll be harvesting some Bubba over the next couple of days that were/are absolutely infested with them so I'll have a chance to get a good look at the roots and any damage they caused. As far as visible damage to the Bubba thus far, it's hard to say as this is my first run with it, I mean nothing's keeled over and died on me, ..yet.

I noticed them two months ago at the beginning of flower. The floor in my flower room is white, so it's pretty easy to spot things that aren't supposed to be there. Thought it was loose coco at first, but that didn't make any sense, I don't "splash" coco around with my dripper set up. Took a closer look and what looked like pepper scattered on the floor was fricking moving. Anyways, long story short is that for the last two months I had been applying Gnatrol and dunks thinking that the little crawlies were baby gnats without wings yet. So they have been multiplying unchecked for this whole grow basically, up until last week when I took a magnifying glass to one of my pots and just froze with disbelief. I shhit you not, the coco was absolutely teeming with them, stacked on top of each other, solid crawling coco. I posted a pic earlier in the thread above, of the drain area on one of my tables, thats the PG-13 version. I'm embarrassed to show anybody the R and XXX rated versions of that same drain. Guaranteed to induce vomiting.

So yeah, I'm verrrry interested in any info regarding the eradication of this pest.

Hey I'm sorry to hear about your problem. I had a crop of Bubba that was infested with aphids and gnats. It was about a year and 1/2 ago and several insecticides till I was given avid by one shop. I applied it twice a day using 6-8 drops in my 1/2 gallon mix for 1 week. The gnats and aphids took a backseat until a few weeks later. I repeated the avid treatment again and they eventually came back. The damn bugs ended up damaging the crop by reducing our yield average by 2 P's . I just say start from scratch in a clean enviornment. You'll save yourself the touble by not dealing with the unnecessary stress.

 

[Scay Beez]

The bayer tree and shrub granuales seem to be killing some but not all. Man I have been struggling with this for months. I think I'm almost at my wits end.

Anybody else with any light of hope?

- sbz

 

[S4vvy]

Sup SBZ. No good news for you my man. Decided to RE-try the Dutchmaster Zone and i'm having no luck. I'm using it within the recommended application rates 1TSP to 2.4TSP per gal and it's not doin a damn thing. I also saw some aphids walking around on the table where my plants are so i decided to use some ZONE fresh from the bottle on em. Placed a tear drop each on a few aphids and they died instantly Somethin to think about...

Also used the hot water technique on some of my rooted clones, works like a charm. Buuuut i let the water get too hot, top ramen hot (bubbling), and one plant died while being driven to my mother house Be very careful with this technique

 

[Scay Beez]

Bayer tree and shrub appears to be working. I have spent many hours looking for bugs and I haven't seen one in about two weeks. Big thanks to Rootstyle for your suggestion in another thread!! I'll continue to keep and eye out but I'm getting normal sized new growth. There is definitely some root rot-age going on because the soil is white and fuzzy and I'm getting some crispy on the tips of lower leaves. I'm assuming the chlorine from the BayerT&S is killing the good fungus so I'm going to have to resort to something anti-fungal to clean things up. At this point I don't know if a fungal dominant compost tea will be able to out compete an already established pythium colony. I'm thinking of trying Physan 20. I emailed them and they said it stayed in the soil for 14 days. I'm gonna let things get real dry and then decide from there.


Thanks to everyone who threw in a helping hand. Never give up.


- sbz

 

[S4vvy]

Just thought i'd bump this thread with some new info. I actually have some winged aphids in my place but they look completely dif from the non winged ones. In addition to most people having both pests, this is why most people think they have fungus gnats when they have Aphids/Root Aphids. Mines look like this:



Photo courtesy of the uc davis pest management site

 

[Scay Beez]

Well I think jump to conclusions a little to quick...hahaha! (at least I still have some humor left). The bayer tree and shrub kept them down enough for my plants to whip out some new cuts but they are still present. I don't think it is possible to get rid of them without getting rid of every grain of soil. I'm taking cuts off everything and rooting them in the ezcloner. Everybody can go back through this thread and realize that I actively attacked these bastards everyday for 4 months and no success. I'm now broke and beat down... so don't let it happen to you. If you have them, go back to cutting.


Final Score

Root aphids - 1
SBZ - 0


- sbz

 

[l_d_d]

Sorry man... but u know the deal.... Theres always next season!

Good luck with gettin things back to normal. Yer work will pay off this time.

bastards.

 

[jaykush]

Well I think jump to conclusions a little to quick...hahaha! (at least I still have some humor left). The bayer tree and shrub kept them down enough for my plants to whip out some new cuts but they are still present. I don't think it is possible to get rid of them without getting rid of every grain of soil. I'm taking cuts off everything and rooting them in the ezcloner. Everybody can go back through this thread and realize that I actively attacked these bastards everyday for 4 months and no success. I'm now broke and beat down... so don't let it happen to you. If you have them, go back to cutting.


Final Score

Root aphids - 1
SBZ - 0

ahhh bullcrap that makes me mad, its gotta be scaybeez - 1 root aphids - 0 sorry to hear it made you broke and busted.

only aphids ive ever had a problem with are the zebra ones on my bamboo they multiply so F^$kin fast. hope all the cuttings work well what are you going to do for a medium now? all the infected soil whats to be of it.

 

[Scay Beez]

my plan

my plan

Thanks to the good people I've meet on here it won't be so stressful I should be able to save just about everything.

what are you going to do for a medium now? all the infected soil whats to be
of it.

I'm going to chop everything into cuttings and root them in an ezcloner. I'm thinking about Bug o buster'ing the soil before dumping it somewhere remote away from any edible or medicinal crops because I don't want anybody having to deal with these bastards. Then I'm going to rip down my rooms and vacuum the hell out of them, h202 them, sulphur burner, and seal them back up and bomb with with pyrethrum. I'm going to hold each cut underwater for a minute or two to drown anything on the leaves. While the clones are rooting I'm going to turn off the lights and release some ladybugs several times to make sure there aren't any left over. Sound like a good plan?


- sbz

 

[S4vvy]

also make sure you put the ez cloner in whole nother section of your place, if not a separate house entirely

 

[clowntown]

Whoa. I'm glad I found this thread, finally.

I think I have this, too, but I'm not 100% certain yet. They're amber-ish colored (that link in the OP says they vary in color), and nothing on the foliage. The only picture that looks remotely similar from MynameStitch' thread is the spider mite picture.

I've tried a round of FloraMite SC, a few rounds of Spinosad, and a few rounds of Einstein Oil (all both on foliage + coco).

It appears that the problem started out after transplanting 2 weeks ago (1 week before flower), when using re-used coco from a pot from the last harvest. I say that because the plants that were affected by far the worst were in pots that had re-used coco: coco that had been sitting wet with rotting roots and no enzymes. I tossed those plants right away, but it seems to have spread a little to some of the other plants.

At first that's all I could see; then I saw tiny little white worm things as well. I think those worm things were taken care of with the two applications of predator nematodes. 2 days apart; I did the second one because I was afraid that I washed away the first application by watering an hour after applying the nematodes.

It's been roughly 72 hours since the first application of the predator nematodes, and roughly 24-72 since the second... and I'm still seeing the aphids (I'm assuming). I haven't seen any of the worms, but those were hard to find to begin with.

Is the general consensus using BugBuster O @ 40%, dunked to the roots?

I'm growing in coco, 7-8 days into flower.

 

[clowntown]

Has anyone mentioned diatomaceous earth, yet?

Ran into NiteTiger's thread earlier, and had me thinking:

http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=70408

Then I ran into this guy's thread just a few minutes ago:

http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=13138

the root afids are comming to an end...with the neem/soap/ and diatomatious earth watering they are falling out the pots and dying....

(That was posted less than 24 hours after he posted "I'm going to get find some DE tomorrow", so sounds like quick results!)

At $6.49 a pound:

http://www.plantitearth.com/store/product.asp?pid=350&catid=1

This might be the cheapest and most effective insecticide / pesticide that I've purchased so far:

Predator nematodes: $12.95/million x 2
Spinosad: ~$20
Einstein Oil: ~$15
FloraMite SC: $30

I was ready for BotaniGard and Bt as well, but we'll see how DE works first. Sounds promising.

If it works, this stuff is going into every coco mix (along with mycorrhizae) from now on...

 

[Scay Beez]

Nspecta on a different board said that bug o buster will mess up the plants. I experienced bottom fan leaves falling off about a week after application. Nematodes take a while (2-3 weeks) to get established in the soil and is more of a preventative thing than a cure.

My root aphids started out very small white to clear bug about 1/3 -1/2 size of a spidermite. Then they get a big bigger and are amber tinted. Then they turn into a spider that looks straight out of a terminator movie. They are very difficult to see and sometimes requires long amounts of staring into the soil and bottom of the pots.

The problem with using DE is these insects flock to the rootball like a magnet. It is impossible to always keep your rootball wet with pesticides 24/7 because then you'll get root rot. DE looses its effectiveness as soon as it gets wet and starts to compact and break down. Then you create a layer in the soil that is harder to penetrate and fully cover with pesticides (these insects love clay soil).

The problem with these insects is killing every single one of them (coverage). I always got them down to nothing but somehow one survived and they are all back. Crop rotation and beneficial insects are how professional biodynamic gardeners deal with these beasts. If there is no soil and no roots, then they will die off. I'm in the process of rooting all my strains in the ez cloner and ditching the soil. I'm just having to wait for the landlord to do a walkthrough at the same time (bitch has perfect timing). Everything in the ezcloner has huge nice roots with no bugs.

If you think you have these insects clowtown, then take your strains back to cutting and don't think twice about it.

My hommie just got a job for Growing Edge magazine and there will be an article about these evil bastards in there. We are still actively researching this topic. All the cases of these bugs I've seen are in coastal environments in CA.


- sbz