Phylloxera information - aka root mites aka root aphids

[Leonard NeemOil]

Here is a well done video about pot pests. The root aphids section begins at around 28:00 but the whole thing is worth watching.

http://vimeo.com/9776009

Thanks to chroniclyfaded who originally posted it in the 'Trap Plants and Video Class' thread.
http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=166473

 

[skoobie dew]

imid is chlorinated nicotinen (from memory). I would assume that the boil tabacco recipe-soil drench would work. Merit works, but that's nasty stuff. Predatory nematodes are usually dead by the time you get them.

FYI root aphids only fly in the winter. If you look at the frequency of posts you'll find that growers always have questions about them in the winter.


So instead of a million questions, and debate about what might work, let's just have definite answers.

When I lived in so cal I got these fucker twice. First time I used predatory nematodes and parasitic wasps. Maybe I used gnatroll too but that was years ago. Took about three weeks, but it worked. Second time I tried the same thing, but it didn't work. Took down my entire grow except for mothers(finished all my flowering plants and culled most things in veg). Used imid & waited 2 weeks. No more root aphids, fungus gnats went away too. Broke the cycle. I remember also taking all of the trash out every day. I put bleach down all the drains every day.

I took new cuttings to a SEALED room that hadn't been used for growing before. Vegged for 3-4 months flowered for another 2. I figured that because the plant was about 1000x bigger (from mother to clone to plant that took up 10 sq feet each) that the amount of imid was inconsequential. Still didn't make butter out of the trim.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[beer batter]

mix 1tbs concern DE per gallon of water at heavy infestations its got cilica wich is good for plants and it kills crawling bugs -BAMB only thing is it will or will not kill worms or benefital nematodes -i wont say and dont know just use the stuff indoors not out (to protect the earthworm jims)http://www.saferbrand.com/store/insect-control/97064 ill funnle a set amount into a wter bottle to shake into a solution to poor into the greater nutrient solution, avoid makeing dust and work slow and cautious with this material.

 

[Rabbits]

Firstly, thanks to all of you who have contributed to this thread.
I have read the whole thread and I am now re-reading it.

I have searched the net for information on Imidacloprid since I panicked over spider mites on my plants four weeks into flowering.
These plants are indoor and growing in potting mix.

I sprayed them with a domestic version of Confidor at a rate of 5 grams (1 teaspoon granules) in ½ gallon of water.
As it turns out Confidor doesn’t do much to spider mites.

The withholding period for the Confidor, at the strength I used is:

Tomatoes 6 days
Capsicum, potatoes, egg plants 14 days
Cucurbits (squash, melons, pumpkins, cucumbers) 2 days

I am hoping to save the buds I sprayed. I plan to extend the flowering period to 10 weeks which means it will be 36 days since they were sprayed.
Going by the withholding periods above I’m hoping nearly all the imid is out of the plants.

I have been unable to find any withholding periods for Imidacloprid used on tobacco plants.

What do you guys think? Is it still too much of a risk to cure the buds?
Thanks in advance for any opinions.

 

[Liteyouup]

Root Aphids and going back to clone

Root Aphids and going back to clone

Hello. I've read a lot of threads on a few forums about root aphids, contacted tech support at General Hydro and tried to kill them before posting. I can only keep them down, they breed quickly and have been making it past root drenches of Azamax and weekly bug bombs. I need to clear the flower room out and start clean.

How strict do I need to be on this? Like how long should I leave the flower room empty, how many Pyrethrum bombs. I can't see any signs of infestation in the veg room, although I don't know how I've been so lucky. I might have seen one flying in there once so I assume it's infected. I need some advice from people who've had these and eradicated them. Moving to a new location in not an option at this time for several reasons. My grow location is a good spot I really hate to give up. How long can they survive with no plants to feed on? Any ideas? (large flower room with sever different stage cycles).

I plan to finish everything, and then stop putting more plants into flower after I get some of these done. Yields suffered so bad lately I need to stockpile some meds first.

 

[Greyskull]

get some merit 75wp and you will only have to apply it/use it once and you will not have an aphid problem any longer.

 

[Fat J]

Rabbit -> Per bayer rep, imid minimum pre-harvest interval for tobacco is 50 days, most will go 60. IMHO - the levels are very safe after 45 days, but I wouldnt go less than that. The strength of application must be no stronger than mfr reccomended strength for this interval to be accurate. Also, I won't usually smoke anything thats been sprayed in flower, athough it may be safe, it changes the flavor usually in a bad way.

 

[spleebale]

Lite:
I am running a thread on root aphids that tries to be comprehensive about dealing with them. Greyskull may have had the results mentioned... most are not that lucky. He is right that imidacloprid is THE main solution to dealing with root aphids (in that it will both help reduce your problem and also should be used as a prophylactic once you THINK they are gone). You can buy Merit 75 or you can go to the hardware store and pick up "Green Light Tree and Shrub" or Bayer Complete Insect Killer (which also has B-Cyfluthrin).

http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=159960&highlight=fungus+gnats&page=32

The imid is systemic (taken into plants) and should not be used after first week or two of bloom. It also will not kill everything everywhere - just the bugs that try to eat roots that have been treated. The aphids lay TONS of eggs under leaves and in other places (houseplants etc) and so you can easily have aphids roaming around for a long time while the imid is wearing off. Use the imid once or twice early in the life cycle and then very soon after start using another control substance (look to my thread for what works).

I would forget pyrethrum bombs - you may be killing a few aphids with each, but it will not reliably kill everything in the room - they are just not that susceptible to pyrethrum. There are a couple other total release bombs you can get at the hardware store that are for all sorts of insects that are almost certainly more toxic to humans but probably work FAR better against aphids.

As for how long to wait: there is no guarantee they will be gone. Learning to control them is pretty important, as you can't necessarily run from them. I would dip clones in imid mix at planting and then water young plants with it again 12 to 14 days later. Then I would use physical barriers to keep them out (mosquito netting you can get at an outdoor supply store, Tree Tanglefoot can make a sticky barrier). You can also try to culture nematodes, since they tend to be quite effective.

If you are going to try to wait hings out, bombing here and there - make sure you filter your intake air, as you may just suck winged aphids into the grow from outside. The longer you wait the more likely they have moved on - but again there is no guarantee.

Good luck!

 

[Liteyouup]

I say the bombs, just to kill any that may be alive in the room still. I realize with plants in there the bombs will do very little save for killing the winged ones and the few that are outside the rockwool cube. Surely they can't live in carpet and the wood without something to eat, right? (no carpet in flower room, just in whole house and in the veg room)
They were introduced to the grow room via clone from someone else. I didn't realize it until it was pretty bad. Hopefully these aren't living in my yard, that would suck.

 

[jimbo99]

I killed all the aphids in my grow with the spectracide triazicide from home depot at 15ml/gal. It worked instantly and i havent seen one in 2 weeks.

 

[Rabbits]

Fat J, thanks for the response to my post and the advice you gave.

It seems I have a to learn a harsh lesson from my ‘brain explosion’ and destroy my seven plants in full bloom.
Even if I run them to ten weeks in flower they will have a withholding period of only 35 days.
I suppose I could add a further ten days but the plants are looking spent even now.
Even after this extended period I don’t know how much Imidacloprid will still be in the buds.

I note the tobacco growers go to sixty days withholding when being cautious.

Still can’t help grasping at straws though.
I wonder what strength the commercial guys use?
I have noted that some mixes are at a rate of 7oz per half gallon. This is very powerful stuff compared to my .18 of an ounce (yeah point .18) per half gallon.
Still, I admit this is the argument of a desperate person!

My research also showed be the flea treatment I put on my dogs skin (monthly) has the active ingredient (you guessed it) Imidacloprid !!!
The things we do to our pets.

The big lesson here is don’t use systemic insecticides on your special plants. The risks are too great.
I wished it were otherwise.

 

[Rabbits]

Further to my post above I have insects on the under side of the leaves. They are very very tiny and I have no idea what they are; spider mites or something else? They are brown in color.
I will check in the morning as the lights are due to switch off.
The questions are: is the imid out of the plants system or are these insects not bothered by imid?

 

[spleebale]

Can someone check up on the type of systemic that imid is? Some systemics are local (only in tissues it was directly applied to) while others are able to diffuse throughout the plant. I get the impression that imid is not this latter type, because no matter how much of it I use (as a root application), it does not seem to bother the spider mites whatsoever (I see almost no response in reduction of numbers or noticeable dead bodies). This leads me to believe that very little, if any of the imid is transferred from the root tissues where it is absorbed into the leaf tissues. If this is the case, it is more than likely there would not be significant quantities of imid in the buds either.

Note that most agricultural use of imid (even with tobacco) is typically as a foliar application, where it will be absorbed directly into the tissues that are being harvested. I think it is very important that we sort this out. If imid is a local systemic, then we should be fine using it at high concentrations well into bloom; however if it trans-locates through all tissues, it would be best not to use it in bloom at all - clearly this is an important thing to know. I'm busy; you get on it.

 

[Greyskull]

here we go again...

a few weeks ago i picked up a bunch of clones form multiple sources (so i cannot pin down infection source). since then i'd been seeing few odd fliers now and again. nothing major like ive had before, but nonetheless i thought 'oh no fungas gnats' and started spraying neem every 4 days to give them somthing to suck on...

well after 2 weeks of spraying the fliers were still there... and the flight pattern of the fliers was seeming very eeratic. very familiar. but i hadnt seen any creepy crawlers on any root masses or pots or.... boy am i glad i use the solo beer cups for rooted clones, (because they are white on the lip/inside) - i saw a little terminator motherfucker crawling on the rim on one of the cups at the middle of the table.

GLAD I HAVE MERIT 75WP
i mixed up 1tsp for 10g and fed to 25% runoff yesterday morning = NO MORE FLIERS OR CRAWLERS

i didnt have as many dead motherfuckers laying in the tray channels as i thought/did last time, (which is good i got to it early!) but there are some dead aphids. and no more fliers.

merit 75wp/imidacloprid is the shit to use when you have root aphids.
ONLY IN VEG!!!! its all you have to use. you dont have to worry about bombing or painting or moving or steaming or nothing. just top feed/drench your plants achieve some runoff (i like 15-25%) and see all the dead bugs. its easy. ONLY IN VEG

good luck

 

[Rabbits]

All I have found so far is this incomplete sentence:

On the leaves, imidacloprid acts as a local systemic, namely translaminary, and passes over to the other side of the leaf, but acropetally broadens only to..........

I guess it's a start and note 'local systemic.' That is a plus.

 

[spleebale]

..."only to a few top leaves." is the end of that sentence (from Google). It also says "Protection is secured only 14 to 21 days. ..." Can't find any more by following the link though.

But note: that means that it is not very mobile in the leaf tissue, moving through to the other side but not very significantly up the plant when applied directly to the leaves; this is very promising in terms of how much will be present in buds after application; imid is not very water-soluble and from this study seems to remain mostly very local. Good to know. (This is exactly the sort of information I was asking people to help out with; note how people will spend tons of energy looking into percentages of imid in each product and whatnot and yet hardly any work is done to narrow down how much of this stuff will be around at harvest and how dangerous it is. I applaud anyone's efforts to shed light on these issues further.)

Also note: if it is drawn only into a "few top leaves" then it is probably drawn mostly into the highest buds; sad but true, these will be the fattiest colas. Just keep it in mind, as many will keep these around as the prize - they may have the most imid in them (perhaps the only imid you will find in the plant above root zone at harvest)

 

[Rabbits]

Thanks spleebale for finding the rest of the sentence and your opinion on imidacloprid.

I am particularly interested in the use of imid on tobacco plants for the obvious reason it is a product that is smoked.

This is a governmental report I found that is well worth reading.

The two most pertinent paragraphs are headed:

The Magnitude of the Residue—crop field trials

Pyrolysis Study………..( analyzing the tobacco smoke for imid residue from the treated leaves)

What I now need to do is find the relevancy of ppm. (parts per million)

The link:

http://www.epa.gov/pesticides/chemical/foia/cleared-reviews/reviews/129099/129099-093.pdf

I was going to paste the tail end of the report here but I was unsure of the wisdom of doing that since it is a government agency report.

 

[Rabbits]

Having read the report several times without the aid of an interpreter I have deduced the tobacco was harvested 14 days after the last of three applications of imidacloprid.

The testing authority found the residue in the dried and cured leaves satisfactory it seems. I assume millions of people are smoking this tobacco with no ill effects.

 

[spleebale]

Yeah, I am not super-worried about imid. Some pesticides like acephate, but also to some degree malthion and a few others, however, I am much more warry of. Imid does not seem super-harmful, and what is more important is the study sited above (sentence I finished) - it does not move up the plant much. Keep in mind that with tobacco the application is probably directly to the leaves - where it does move into the tissue. The levels present in tobacco are probably many multitudes higher than those present after applying it to the root zone - especially in veg or in the beginnings of bloom - though flushing it well from the medium is probably a good idea.

 

[bicycle racer]

good to know for next time of course hopefully there will be no next time lol