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Phylloxera information - aka root mites aka root aphids
- Thread starter Scay Beez
- Start date
kushism
Member
This is what i originally thought, that the concentrations in the plant drop over time, i mean maybe a 90-day half life in soil watered once a day. Small plants take up a small amount, and as they get bigger and do not receive more imid the concentrations within the plant drop as the imid spreads to all the new growth. Thanks for the proof Shan
interesting thread, i always thought that the root aphids were the windless forms of fungus gnats.
i had these guys back on my first grow, they drop out the bottom of the pots everytime you dose with neem oil. i thought they were giant black spider mites too.
i had these guys back on my first grow, they drop out the bottom of the pots everytime you dose with neem oil. i thought they were giant black spider mites too.
GirlWonderGrows
Member
I had great success with a product called "Wisdom" - its Bifenthrin, which is very yoxic to these pests but is not systemic so it doesn't make it into your buds. I did a 2 gal drench in each 5 gallon pot and haven't seen them sense. Used everything under the sun except imnapiroclod (sp) before I tried this and nothing made a dent. Check it out.
-gwg
-gwg
kushism
Member
hmmm sounds interesting, i will look it up.. non systemics are great.. Sounds like a relative of pyrethrin.
there is a common misconception that the level/concentrations/percentages of systemics found in plants after one dosing remains the same throughout the plants entire lifespan.. Small, young plants take up smaller amounts of systemics, versus large plants, and as they get bigger and do not receive more dosing of the systemic the concentrations within the plant drop as the systemic spreads to all the new growth. if not timed right systemics can be present in the bud, but in my case i know i treated early enough..
Thanks for the info
there is a common misconception that the level/concentrations/percentages of systemics found in plants after one dosing remains the same throughout the plants entire lifespan.. Small, young plants take up smaller amounts of systemics, versus large plants, and as they get bigger and do not receive more dosing of the systemic the concentrations within the plant drop as the systemic spreads to all the new growth. if not timed right systemics can be present in the bud, but in my case i know i treated early enough..
Thanks for the info
Quick Q, I used the imid, twice, but I still have those bugs......what can I do??? ALOT died, but they're still around.
It seems the systemic part doesn't bother them as they are eating at the roots still.My observation is that it kills on contact not systemically. Also the tree and shrub has nutes in it, if i mix at the 5ml (1 teaspoon) per gallo rate, would the amount of nutes or the imid in general hurt them??
Im thinkin of trying the Bif stuff, but i feel bad that im resorting to all this chemical shit to kill them.....oh and i'm still in veg for another 2 weeks at least. I'm not flipping the lights 12/12 until i can eradicate these bastards..
help plz ....
It seems the systemic part doesn't bother them as they are eating at the roots still.My observation is that it kills on contact not systemically. Also the tree and shrub has nutes in it, if i mix at the 5ml (1 teaspoon) per gallo rate, would the amount of nutes or the imid in general hurt them??
Im thinkin of trying the Bif stuff, but i feel bad that im resorting to all this chemical shit to kill them.....oh and i'm still in veg for another 2 weeks at least. I'm not flipping the lights 12/12 until i can eradicate these bastards..
help plz ....
Scay Beez
Active member
I thought my experience/struggle would have been easy to decipher. I guess not.
Take cuts off your plants immediately and try to root them. The bugs can't survive without roots. Ditch and/or solarize soil and start over. This is the ONLY complete eradication method. Chemicals and lower temps will slow them down until you can take cuts.
- sbz
Take cuts off your plants immediately and try to root them. The bugs can't survive without roots. Ditch and/or solarize soil and start over. This is the ONLY complete eradication method. Chemicals and lower temps will slow them down until you can take cuts.
- sbz
thx for the input sbz however I've even tried the cloning method and found them in the cloning medium upon the second day after taking the cuts and sticking them.
I did follow all sterilization steps and then added some to make sure NOTHING could survive from cutting into the cloning dome. I cleaned everything out with bleach, alcohol, more bleach and then kept everything segregated. But they are there, little TINY TINY things going in and out through the rapid rooter plugs.
At this point taking cuttings has proved to be useless as well since there obviously isn't a 100% way to pull it off, and i guess if one's left behind, then the whole thing will repeat again.
Believe me sbz, if the cloning thing worked, I would have gone that route and dozed everything else in alcohol and set it ablaze but at this point I can only think of chemical means to gain control of the situation.
PS how long have you observed that these things live without access to roots to eat? are we talking days or hours?
I'm also thinking of making a imid bath and just letting the pots sit in that solution for a bit. I'm sure it'll make the girls upset a bit, but I can only see them recovering even better once there is no more root monsters.
advise plz!
G
Greyskull
all i can say bali is the merit 75 wp worked great for me the one time i used it.
as for cloning... no little buggers traveled to my ezclone while the new cuts rooted.
maybe you should try an aero or bubble cloner method?
as for cloning... no little buggers traveled to my ezclone while the new cuts rooted.
maybe you should try an aero or bubble cloner method?
thx for the input greyskull, if I'm not mistaken the merit 75 is the same as the bayer tree and shrub only 75x more concentrated so you use less? I've been dosing at 5ml per gallon of the bayer tree and shrub stuff, but I might also pick a few volunteers to try perhaps a 6ml or 7ml per gallon dosage on.
Upon inspection today I noticed the time that the girls were originally treated there has been a 75-85% reduction in pest #'s. Perhaps these are second or third gen bugs that have gotten past the first treatment as they were in egg state.
Upon inspection today I noticed the time that the girls were originally treated there has been a 75-85% reduction in pest #'s. Perhaps these are second or third gen bugs that have gotten past the first treatment as they were in egg state.
Scay Beez
Active member
Sorry if I came off like a grumpy old man in that last post... stressful day yesterday.
Sounds like you might have a combination of root aphids and fungus gnats. Baby fungus gnats can resemble root aphids. Any flying bugs? Any amber colored or black mature super armored terminator looking spider bugs (like earlier pictures in this thread)? Does the new growth on the plant look miniature? Snap some plant pics if possible.
I haven't ever seen the root aphids on the rapid rooters. I had them in separate rooms though. How close are your domes to the plants? Be real careful with bleach and alcohol as well.... any residue would definitely be no good.
- sbz
Sounds like you might have a combination of root aphids and fungus gnats. Baby fungus gnats can resemble root aphids. Any flying bugs? Any amber colored or black mature super armored terminator looking spider bugs (like earlier pictures in this thread)? Does the new growth on the plant look miniature? Snap some plant pics if possible.
I haven't ever seen the root aphids on the rapid rooters. I had them in separate rooms though. How close are your domes to the plants? Be real careful with bleach and alcohol as well.... any residue would definitely be no good.
- sbz
G
Greyskull
hey man i am really sorry to hear about your battle going on....
i applied it @ 1tsp/10g - full strength.
S
Shan Diego
Hey fellas.
I'm still seeing these guys flying around like crazy in my neighborhood...they seem like fungus gnats, but they are reddish in color and have a rounder body type. Also, they are quicker and harder to swat out of the air...check out the pic on the wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phylloxera
good luck to you guys!
I'm still seeing these guys flying around like crazy in my neighborhood...they seem like fungus gnats, but they are reddish in color and have a rounder body type. Also, they are quicker and harder to swat out of the air...check out the pic on the wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phylloxera
good luck to you guys!
HeartAndSoul
New member
First off I'm a noob. But I nows how to do my homeworks, and I dids it. Read every post on this thread, top to bottom, then sent and did my own research and basically confirmed everything I read here. I have the root aphids too. Took some clones off a friends hands they had been sitting for a while. very rooted. I noticed them right away but didn't treat for a few days because I was that broke. I read every post in the root aphid journal where you posted about bayer tree and shrub. imid was recommended by others too. But one treatment I think has not killed mine. I havn't been able to find them in the foxfarm/rockwool, but I've had what I thought was gnat flies. I waited to see, and then I had that sooty mold that grows on the honeydew aphids leave on leaves. I have a lot of ants that I just can't control here so I thought maybe they were regular aphids that the ants were farming for the honeydew. But one that I caught has that striped look I see in bobyouruncle's photos. But those fuckers won't land on my pest strips, or even stick to them when I hit em in the air. They look too big to have evolved from the little root aphids I saw lumbering up a young stalk. Only these other flies that look more like fungus gnats land on the pest strips (that were designed for aphids and whiteflies). So maybe I have those too. But I definitely have some kind of aphid because the damage is just like every other picture I see and every account I read. After doing about six hours of online research in everything from scholarly journals to blogs like this one, and reading every post in the root aphid thread, I'm still up shit creek(I don't wanna call universities and labs just yet. I'm not exactly supplying dispensaries). The problem is worsening exponetially. The mold seems to spread even faster than the bugs eat (I can see thier honeydew BTW but not very many of the bugs, only two tonight, maybe one. And the leaves curl in the familiar pattern. Don't think the mold can be from humidity, as I keep it perfect nearly always). I thought about treating again with the bayer (mine's actually greenlight tree and shrub, same 1.47% imid) but then I remembered the post that said only treat once. And the label says not to treat a shrub more than once a year. I did, however use a smaller dose then recommended (one teaspoon per gallon), but I'm also in one gallon pots right now, well not me, my plants are, haha okay i'm a bit overmedicated. My bottle of neem says not to spray more then once every two weeks. Almost every post I read online says to treat every 3-4 days. WTF? I just sprayed again. I think it's been around 5 days. I'm definitely not bombing and I don't wanna use more bayer. According to everything I've read, more bayer is the only other option now. I don't wanna do the OSH lawn and garden insect killer route. Should I try more bayer? Is anyone here also experiencing the honeydew and mold? Has anyone tried Zero Tolerance by Ed Rosenthal, sold in hydro shops? I've heard it can work if you use it regularly. Just tried it on one last night and there's not more damage or mold on it today. Thanks
P.S. I've definitely dented the aphids because even now my girls are still jumping into the lights nearly every day.
P.S. I've definitely dented the aphids because even now my girls are still jumping into the lights nearly every day.
Scay Beez
Active member
I just ditched all my moms, properly disposed of soil, working on cleaning all pots and surfaces... got some perfect looking cuts from the trusty fridge.
H&S -> Who cares if you are a newb... you got a good mindset going into the problem (key). Ants farm and overwinter root aphids. Ants will bring root aphid eggs into their nest during the winter. During the spring/summer they will bring the eggs to a plant. You must immediately get rid of all ants. I have had excellent success using Dr. Bronner's Peppermint soap to get rid of ants. They will smell the peppermint residue after 3-4 ant massacres and not come back. I've gotten rid of a HUGE ants infestation in this warehouse/cabin I was growing in that nobody lived in for 10 years. More soil the plant has to grow into, the better chance its roots can outgrow the munching. I was growing in a small amount of root space (bonzai). Universities are there for research and helping the public.... fuck a med club.
Now that I've had time to sit back and ponder on this problem, I want to pass some ideas along so that others might be able to try. I would not consider my trial with nematodes to be testament. Nematodes can kill insects as big as worms...still hard for me to imagine they didn't work... trying both species (top and bottom dwelling) is worth a shot. Neem seed meal and diatomaceous earth need investigating. DE will not work wet but will after it has dried. The alaskan humi-soil folks told me to try something real acidic like coffee grounds or apple cider vinegar. Caffeine is a great yellowjacket killer.
Here is some predator info I came across the other day:
The Earth Life Web, Aphids
http://www.earthlife.net/insects/aphids.html
Chloropidae, Thaumatomyia spp. larvae, specialise on root aphids.
Phoridae, Phora spp. larvae, specialise on root aphids.
I haven't ever seen these beneficials for sale, unfortunately. Anybody know how to breed and raise beneficial insects?
- sbz
H&S -> Who cares if you are a newb... you got a good mindset going into the problem (key). Ants farm and overwinter root aphids. Ants will bring root aphid eggs into their nest during the winter. During the spring/summer they will bring the eggs to a plant. You must immediately get rid of all ants. I have had excellent success using Dr. Bronner's Peppermint soap to get rid of ants. They will smell the peppermint residue after 3-4 ant massacres and not come back. I've gotten rid of a HUGE ants infestation in this warehouse/cabin I was growing in that nobody lived in for 10 years. More soil the plant has to grow into, the better chance its roots can outgrow the munching. I was growing in a small amount of root space (bonzai). Universities are there for research and helping the public.... fuck a med club.
Now that I've had time to sit back and ponder on this problem, I want to pass some ideas along so that others might be able to try. I would not consider my trial with nematodes to be testament. Nematodes can kill insects as big as worms...still hard for me to imagine they didn't work... trying both species (top and bottom dwelling) is worth a shot. Neem seed meal and diatomaceous earth need investigating. DE will not work wet but will after it has dried. The alaskan humi-soil folks told me to try something real acidic like coffee grounds or apple cider vinegar. Caffeine is a great yellowjacket killer.
Here is some predator info I came across the other day:
The Earth Life Web, Aphids
http://www.earthlife.net/insects/aphids.html
Chloropidae, Thaumatomyia spp. larvae, specialise on root aphids.
Phoridae, Phora spp. larvae, specialise on root aphids.
I haven't ever seen these beneficials for sale, unfortunately. Anybody know how to breed and raise beneficial insects?
- sbz
Scay Beez
Active member
A link that a buddy passed along:
http://www.igrowhydro.com/InfoSheets/InfoSheet-RootAphids.pdf
This site recommends the chemical Isotox for serious infestations. I personally didn't have any success with using azatrol on root aphids (works great on everything else).
- sbz
http://www.igrowhydro.com/InfoSheets/InfoSheet-RootAphids.pdf
This site recommends the chemical Isotox for serious infestations. I personally didn't have any success with using azatrol on root aphids (works great on everything else).
- sbz
This thread should be a sticky, 1 teaspoon per 10 gallons lets kill these fuckers dead. Thanks to kushism (wherever you are) and greyskull for helping me though this... Gotta say I hate pests!!!!!!!!!!!
Update:
Ok so here's what went down. True to sbz's exp that these things are literally impossibly to get rid of, I spent weeks worth on research and trial and error until I figured out the secret to killing these things.
I know a lot of people have these pests which should be higher on growers radars than spidermites in my opinion, because at least spidermites and their damage will get your attention before populations explode, plus these piece of shits can reproduce with no male needed, and as mentioned previously do give live birth to other females who are already pregnant with their own pregnant females.... you get the point.
Before I go into the how, allow me to say that I could have knocked out 20 spider mite infested grow rooms in the amount of time it took to simply find something that works. I had the good fortune of having many infested plants therefore I had a lot of research subjects and good stuff was found.
First and most importantly. What does not work:
SM90, don't even consider using it. Its great stuff, no doubt, but at the concentration needed to even bother these RA (root aphids) you'll be hurting your plants as per my outcome on several strains.
FloramiteSC, infested soil samples were dropped into dishes containing the 1/2 teaspoon per gallon concentration of FloramiteSC.......More casualties from drowning than the miticide.
What does work:
This is what worked for me. I'm sure parts may be overkill, but with a pest like this I did not want to do the work for the 20th time.
If used per these instruction this will absolutely terminate these things.
Acephate and Imidacloprid both work, if they are combined with an effective quarantine, sterilization and treatment program. You will absolutely not believe how small these things are. Therefore you must eliminate all possibilities of them spreading as they will scatter during treatment time, you just won't see them. Some go up into the foliage, and the transparency of the larva makes them close to impossible to see. Others walk off the edge of the container or table and hang out only to return later.
The key to killing these pests per all the poisons and methods I've tried is to drown these bastards.
The main ingredients needed are castile soap, 70% rubbing alcohol, a very foamy dishwashing soap, and Bayer tree and shrub, containing 1.47% Imidacloprid.
The rubbing alcohol will be used to coat the outside of the pots/cups/containers/tables, and is most efficiently applied if you buy a spray bottle and use it as a fine mist. The alc will come into play later.
So here's the problem I found with the Bayer tree and shrub. It contains 1.47% Imid as the active ingredient. Its serving rec is 1 teaspoon (5ml) per gallon. Well when we do the math we find that out of that 5ml teaspoon you are only adding 0.00735ml of Imid.
Now lets compare that to Merit 75. In that formulation you add 1 teaspoon per 10 gallons. So in the same 5ml teaspoon there is now 3.75mls of active ingredient Imid in 10 gallons. Lets divide 10 gallons by 10, and we find that each gallon has 0.375mls of Imid. Approx 5x the concentration of the bayer tree and shrub.
Whether you get it or not, I personally did not gain the upper hand on these things until I upped the dosage on the Bayer to at least 4 teaspoons per gallon. And only when I flooded the pots and left them flooded with the poison for approx one hour. During the time that this was taking place the top layer was covered in soap foam to disallow any of them from escaping onto the trunk or rim of the container.
During the last 5 minutes prior to draining, I took a spray bottle with a concentration of 25mls 90% rubbing alcohol to 500mls water with a surfactant and drenched the entire canopy not missing one spot. I would spray off the alcohol spray with a regular plain water spray after letting the alcohol sit on the foliage for approx 3 minutes.
Ok so now immediately after draining have a few gallons of alcohol water mixed up at the ratio of 20mls per liter. Pour this through the soil. Don't worry its not strong enough to hurt the plants, but it will kill any that are barely hanging on , or were lucky enough to be caught in an air bubble and therefore not drown during the flooding.
At this point you will need a sterile env different from where the plant came. ideally another isolated part of the house. this step is so crucial, if plants do not get segregated they will be reinfested within hours.
and spraying the foliage is cruial as well, as these things regularly go climbing up the trunk and branches exploring trying to jump hosts and infect another plant that might be touching leaves.
These things unfortunately do not have a Poison that will kill them. Meaning there's nothing in a bottle that you can pour through your soil that will just kill them on contact. It needs a well thought and planned out system.
The only thing that worked poured through the soil that killed everything including the plant was rubbing alcohol at a concentration of 10%.
I Must tend to other matters, but will follow up with an update, and include anything I recall later that I forgot to mention.
Oh yes, and for every step, the use of a surfactant is KEY. these things are so tiny, that they can get trapped in the tiny air pockets in the medium, and stay alive. Use antibacterial dishwashing soap WITH triclosin and do not worry about it killing your soil microbes and whatnot. Just prey that it helps kill these things as I've dealt with and have helped others deal with everything, and everything is a joke compared to these things.
Regards until I update!!!
Ok so here's what went down. True to sbz's exp that these things are literally impossibly to get rid of, I spent weeks worth on research and trial and error until I figured out the secret to killing these things.
I know a lot of people have these pests which should be higher on growers radars than spidermites in my opinion, because at least spidermites and their damage will get your attention before populations explode, plus these piece of shits can reproduce with no male needed, and as mentioned previously do give live birth to other females who are already pregnant with their own pregnant females.... you get the point.
Before I go into the how, allow me to say that I could have knocked out 20 spider mite infested grow rooms in the amount of time it took to simply find something that works. I had the good fortune of having many infested plants therefore I had a lot of research subjects and good stuff was found.
First and most importantly. What does not work:
SM90, don't even consider using it. Its great stuff, no doubt, but at the concentration needed to even bother these RA (root aphids) you'll be hurting your plants as per my outcome on several strains.
FloramiteSC, infested soil samples were dropped into dishes containing the 1/2 teaspoon per gallon concentration of FloramiteSC.......More casualties from drowning than the miticide.
What does work:
This is what worked for me. I'm sure parts may be overkill, but with a pest like this I did not want to do the work for the 20th time.
If used per these instruction this will absolutely terminate these things.
Acephate and Imidacloprid both work, if they are combined with an effective quarantine, sterilization and treatment program. You will absolutely not believe how small these things are. Therefore you must eliminate all possibilities of them spreading as they will scatter during treatment time, you just won't see them. Some go up into the foliage, and the transparency of the larva makes them close to impossible to see. Others walk off the edge of the container or table and hang out only to return later.
The key to killing these pests per all the poisons and methods I've tried is to drown these bastards.
The main ingredients needed are castile soap, 70% rubbing alcohol, a very foamy dishwashing soap, and Bayer tree and shrub, containing 1.47% Imidacloprid.
The rubbing alcohol will be used to coat the outside of the pots/cups/containers/tables, and is most efficiently applied if you buy a spray bottle and use it as a fine mist. The alc will come into play later.
So here's the problem I found with the Bayer tree and shrub. It contains 1.47% Imid as the active ingredient. Its serving rec is 1 teaspoon (5ml) per gallon. Well when we do the math we find that out of that 5ml teaspoon you are only adding 0.00735ml of Imid.
Now lets compare that to Merit 75. In that formulation you add 1 teaspoon per 10 gallons. So in the same 5ml teaspoon there is now 3.75mls of active ingredient Imid in 10 gallons. Lets divide 10 gallons by 10, and we find that each gallon has 0.375mls of Imid. Approx 5x the concentration of the bayer tree and shrub.
Whether you get it or not, I personally did not gain the upper hand on these things until I upped the dosage on the Bayer to at least 4 teaspoons per gallon. And only when I flooded the pots and left them flooded with the poison for approx one hour. During the time that this was taking place the top layer was covered in soap foam to disallow any of them from escaping onto the trunk or rim of the container.
During the last 5 minutes prior to draining, I took a spray bottle with a concentration of 25mls 90% rubbing alcohol to 500mls water with a surfactant and drenched the entire canopy not missing one spot. I would spray off the alcohol spray with a regular plain water spray after letting the alcohol sit on the foliage for approx 3 minutes.
Ok so now immediately after draining have a few gallons of alcohol water mixed up at the ratio of 20mls per liter. Pour this through the soil. Don't worry its not strong enough to hurt the plants, but it will kill any that are barely hanging on , or were lucky enough to be caught in an air bubble and therefore not drown during the flooding.
At this point you will need a sterile env different from where the plant came. ideally another isolated part of the house. this step is so crucial, if plants do not get segregated they will be reinfested within hours.
and spraying the foliage is cruial as well, as these things regularly go climbing up the trunk and branches exploring trying to jump hosts and infect another plant that might be touching leaves.
These things unfortunately do not have a Poison that will kill them. Meaning there's nothing in a bottle that you can pour through your soil that will just kill them on contact. It needs a well thought and planned out system.
The only thing that worked poured through the soil that killed everything including the plant was rubbing alcohol at a concentration of 10%.
I Must tend to other matters, but will follow up with an update, and include anything I recall later that I forgot to mention.
Oh yes, and for every step, the use of a surfactant is KEY. these things are so tiny, that they can get trapped in the tiny air pockets in the medium, and stay alive. Use antibacterial dishwashing soap WITH triclosin and do not worry about it killing your soil microbes and whatnot. Just prey that it helps kill these things as I've dealt with and have helped others deal with everything, and everything is a joke compared to these things.
Regards until I update!!!
