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pH & the Organic Enviornment
- Thread starter C21H30O2
- Start date
G
Guest
I think some people bubble their organic nutrients into a tea, and then pH adjust them. No, using an organic pH up or down wouldn't kill bacteria, a chemical/synthetic one may though.
Whose Mantra?USE TO BE my mantra and then I started trying things out for myself instead of listening to what so and so says.And guess what it makes a difference.Yeh I read that whole beneficials control ph too.I let myself believe it was true,amongst other things written by the same author who Ive since discussed all this with and he agrees with ME?Hmmmm?Yeh organics growers time to shuck out the cash go get a ph pen,start doin some testing see where yer at.Beasties can fine tune it but they have to at least have it be ain a healthy range to thrive first.Yer not gonna throw a bunch of bennies into a medium with a ph of 9 and expect em to fix it and bring it into range gotta get it there for em first.Theyll dial it from like 6.0 to 6.5 if thats what they are wanting and alot of times they actually make it rise too much and you gotta bring it back down again by hand.
Trust me folks it matters my yield has gone up by several oz's since I started caring where my ph was.Not to say I didnt do well otherwise prolly the first ten pics in my gallery were all done with the I dont care and all I use is poop tea method and it works you just wont get 2+ lbs per light.I also thought forever proper soil ph was 7.Nope 6.3 or even a tad lower.Plants and bennies can take food in like you would not beleive at this ph.7 is too high and some nutes are left out when its kept there.Well thats my two cents on that.Im sure no one will agree and Ill prolly catch mad flak for this post but oh well its the truth so Im posting it.Ha ha reminds me of me tellin Darkone the AN mod that in organics ph didnt matter,he went on for a page and a half least mines only two paragraphs.Take it as what you will my organic brethrin but its the truth.Peace Gromerr Pott!!
Trust me folks it matters my yield has gone up by several oz's since I started caring where my ph was.Not to say I didnt do well otherwise prolly the first ten pics in my gallery were all done with the I dont care and all I use is poop tea method and it works you just wont get 2+ lbs per light.I also thought forever proper soil ph was 7.Nope 6.3 or even a tad lower.Plants and bennies can take food in like you would not beleive at this ph.7 is too high and some nutes are left out when its kept there.Well thats my two cents on that.Im sure no one will agree and Ill prolly catch mad flak for this post but oh well its the truth so Im posting it.Ha ha reminds me of me tellin Darkone the AN mod that in organics ph didnt matter,he went on for a page and a half least mines only two paragraphs.Take it as what you will my organic brethrin but its the truth.Peace Gromerr Pott!!
The above post is along the lines of what I tell anyone when asking about ph and organics.
Ph pens in organics are useless unless you are testing the right things, you should starting ph and ppm's of your water source and test the runoff if you are experiencing problems that you believe to be ph related.
Besides if your going to buy something to check ph then make it the test strips, they are cheap and don't require any calibration or expensive parts or solutions.
I don't care how you grow the importance in developing a recipe that you follow consistently and knowing those 3 factors from the post above and you can ignore ph after that.
If your using bottled organics and other bottled additives then ph may be an issue, I see this often as people include all kinds of bottled nutes as boosters and then cry the blues that they burned their plants
Post your starting water specs and we can help you figure out how ph will be a factor in YOUR grow.
Suby
I'd like to know who that is because it damn sure isn't Burn1 or Suby...
If you want to read what everyone has to say about this you should check out this thread, it is a hot and debated topic but it comes about often so most posters will skip threads like these, this thread has alot of pros and cons regarding ph and organics.
Ph and organics
Try it and make up your own mind.
S
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See whatd I tell ya and people told ya I shoulda kept my mouth shut.Yes I do "flush"also or dilute the medium in the end.I basically put the plants on a crash diet for the last 2 to 3 weeks there is NO runoff in my garden EVER whatsoever so flushing in the traditional concept of the word I do not.
Suby I speak of the Rev,he writes for Skunk mag and can be found on their forums.He also thinks Im foolish alot of the time but my end products speak for themselves so I no longer waste time or energy arguing.
As far as that chart is concerned I wish I knew how to do that.Take a pic or somthing from one place and stick it in another cus I think a bro of mine from the old forum has a chart that cooberates what Im saying.I know 7 will work fine just great.Test strips or a little vial and liquid dropper test kit is all I used for a long time.But,BUT like I said what you get for a yield at 7 youll get more at 6.3.Cmon Scientist your more up on the jargon,come and help me explain this one.
As far as pens being useless I really wouldnt go that far.I hung on to my strips and vial kit to see the difference in readings and it is pretty big.A whole point usually which to most means nothing but to me a few points difference is a few ozs lost.All Im measuring is the ph of the solution b4 its applied.It is made up of liquid bottled ferts and r/o water so I can easily get a proper reading and adjust it as needed.
I was once on the same page as yall,kept my mind sooo closed to the fact that I could be wrong.NEVER me wrong?What?No the organics take care of themselves,read the plant measure nothing.Mother nature,rah,rah,rah!!!I know exactly where your all coming from thats the exact reason you should try and open your minds to the fact that what Im saying might actually have some validity to it.You guys think I just post this stuff outa no where for no reason.No Im hoping one ,maybe even just one person will try somthing new cus of somthing I said.And who knows maybe they too will get a positive result.If that happens then at the end of the day no matter what anyone believes the Gromer has won.
Suby I speak of the Rev,he writes for Skunk mag and can be found on their forums.He also thinks Im foolish alot of the time but my end products speak for themselves so I no longer waste time or energy arguing.
As far as that chart is concerned I wish I knew how to do that.Take a pic or somthing from one place and stick it in another cus I think a bro of mine from the old forum has a chart that cooberates what Im saying.I know 7 will work fine just great.Test strips or a little vial and liquid dropper test kit is all I used for a long time.But,BUT like I said what you get for a yield at 7 youll get more at 6.3.Cmon Scientist your more up on the jargon,come and help me explain this one.
As far as pens being useless I really wouldnt go that far.I hung on to my strips and vial kit to see the difference in readings and it is pretty big.A whole point usually which to most means nothing but to me a few points difference is a few ozs lost.All Im measuring is the ph of the solution b4 its applied.It is made up of liquid bottled ferts and r/o water so I can easily get a proper reading and adjust it as needed.
I was once on the same page as yall,kept my mind sooo closed to the fact that I could be wrong.NEVER me wrong?What?No the organics take care of themselves,read the plant measure nothing.Mother nature,rah,rah,rah!!!I know exactly where your all coming from thats the exact reason you should try and open your minds to the fact that what Im saying might actually have some validity to it.You guys think I just post this stuff outa no where for no reason.No Im hoping one ,maybe even just one person will try somthing new cus of somthing I said.And who knows maybe they too will get a positive result.If that happens then at the end of the day no matter what anyone believes the Gromer has won.
If your growing hydro style then yes, fine a ph pen is a must, no argument there I measured ph every day when i grew in bubblers.
For the few times I need a ph test I now use litmus paper, quick clean and no storage solution, I've seen so many crops trashed due to an ill calibrated ph pen.
The main thing here is what's your water and soil mix and what are you feeding and when.
If I'm plunking a clone in some new composted soil mix then I water with a light tea.
If your feeding a large plant that is rootbound or in senescence then yes you'll catch more problem with an unbalanced soil ph, that's a given.
If you don't have enough soil or the wrong ingredients in it then your not giving the system a chance, there are some basics to consider like the amount of soil, the veg and flowering time, etc.
I think most of us in the organic forum, at least myself, are open to the fact that we are wrong.
But on this one I bow my head to my old mentors as they have shared with me what over time has worked for them.
Peace
S
For the few times I need a ph test I now use litmus paper, quick clean and no storage solution, I've seen so many crops trashed due to an ill calibrated ph pen.
The main thing here is what's your water and soil mix and what are you feeding and when.
If I'm plunking a clone in some new composted soil mix then I water with a light tea.
If your feeding a large plant that is rootbound or in senescence then yes you'll catch more problem with an unbalanced soil ph, that's a given.
If you don't have enough soil or the wrong ingredients in it then your not giving the system a chance, there are some basics to consider like the amount of soil, the veg and flowering time, etc.
I think most of us in the organic forum, at least myself, are open to the fact that we are wrong.
But on this one I bow my head to my old mentors as they have shared with me what over time has worked for them.
Peace
S
I grow LUI organic in coco, own a ph pen (best investment ever) and check ph of my plain water, nute water, and runoff. Strips work pretty good as well, but $70 for the Milwaukee pen was worth it.
My water starts at 7.4, Nutes bring it down a tad, then I adjust with phosphoric acid to 6.5, allowing my runoff to measure 6.7-6.8 and everything is big, green and healthy. This is my first crop using these methods and my first pot just went under the 600hps under 18/6 to get a little more veg growth before switching to 12/12. I am thinking of upgrading my veg CFLs to 4 x 2' T5s. 1.5 times more efficient and 8000 lumens!
I like dolomite in the mix more for extra calcium and magnesium (I add CalMax at 5ml/4L), rather than it's buffering properties, but that is nice too. PH naturally lowers over time due to biological action, and the lime counters that. Guanos and fish meal based ferts are acidic.
Hope this helps.
My water starts at 7.4, Nutes bring it down a tad, then I adjust with phosphoric acid to 6.5, allowing my runoff to measure 6.7-6.8 and everything is big, green and healthy. This is my first crop using these methods and my first pot just went under the 600hps under 18/6 to get a little more veg growth before switching to 12/12. I am thinking of upgrading my veg CFLs to 4 x 2' T5s. 1.5 times more efficient and 8000 lumens!
I like dolomite in the mix more for extra calcium and magnesium (I add CalMax at 5ml/4L), rather than it's buffering properties, but that is nice too. PH naturally lowers over time due to biological action, and the lime counters that. Guanos and fish meal based ferts are acidic.
Hope this helps.
Kailua Kid
Active member
Soil pH meters are best IMHO. They measure the pH in the root zone. Where it matters the most. Control Wizard makes a good one for a reasonable price.
Kailua Kid
Active member
jiggywhompus said:
It wasn't meant for anyone in particular. Just my $.02
Cheap soil pH meters (the $5 to $20 kind) are junk and a waste of money. Top of the line models (the kind the pros use) cost $300 to $500. The Control Wizard pH meter is accurate and costs about $60.
NO SUBY,never said you guys were WRONG.We are all doing it right.Until its legalized and some scientist crawls out the woodworks with all the cold hard facts no one is wrong.Just trying to maybe get a few peeps to try sumthin new,who knows maybe theyll like it.
Jiggy,I use Fulvic Acid as down.Works great it doesnt take much and its completely organic.As for up,with a starting point of 8.2 I rarely need to pull anything up but when and if I do I use potassium silicate which isnt organic BUT Ive researched it and it apparently has no affect on microlife so its all good.Fulvic,down.Barricade,up.But you are right the nutes in the teas themselves are usually enuff to drop it several points.Hope that answers your questions.Peace,Gromerr Pott!!
Jiggy,I use Fulvic Acid as down.Works great it doesnt take much and its completely organic.As for up,with a starting point of 8.2 I rarely need to pull anything up but when and if I do I use potassium silicate which isnt organic BUT Ive researched it and it apparently has no affect on microlife so its all good.Fulvic,down.Barricade,up.But you are right the nutes in the teas themselves are usually enuff to drop it several points.Hope that answers your questions.Peace,Gromerr Pott!!
No worries Gromer, I didn't take it that way, I'm always testing what I know and after having done 4 years of science studies I always question the basis of my knowledge belief systems.
If you used dolomite lime at even a low rate with starting water ph of 8.2 then I can guarantee lime will create more problems than solutions.
If your water is 7 and under, then dolomite will help you out in buffering.
Your starting ph is so high that when combined with the lime your soil will easily fall out of a controlled ph zone, that's why I stress the importance of knowing your starting water's ph and ppms.
Jiggy has the same problem, he used the lime and had problems because of this combo of high ph water and lime on top of it.
You could probably skip the lime entirely and just rely on the peat ph being lower and feeding with tea ingredients that will lower ph in and of themselves like guano, fish emulsions, humic and fulvic acids are a great choice, as a bonus the humic and fulvics will further make nutes available over a wider ph span, which from what I am reading is what you are doing
I'm glad you posted your water specs, that cleared things up in my mind.
Peace
Suby
Here is where your soil ph is WITH lime, water will be your defining factor as far a soil ph IMHO.
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Hmm I dont really get what your saying my water starts at like out the tap its 8.2 but after its r/oed it goes down some.And then I adjust it religiously to 6.3 with fulvic acid.I would never use water with such a high ph to fertigate.As far as lime goes apparently I use way less than you guys[just was looking over some of the soil recipies]I only add like a cup pr brick.I have a shotty ph kit for soil with the little vial and pill dealy and it is always right in the sweet spot so I dunno.As far as humics and fulvics are cxoncerned yeh they help the plants eat soooo much better.Like tec mike said its like the sauce on the steak so they wanna go back for a second helping.MMMM nutrients,yum,yum!!LOL!!Please try to better explain what you mean to my dense head.LOL!!Peace Gromerr.
What I am saying is your starting water ph makes the use of lime dangerous to soil ph.
Even after the RO filter if your water's starting ph is enough over 7 then it won't work well with lime.
Basically your using ph down to correct the water AND the dolomite in your soil.
Your much better off not using ANY lime and having to adjust your water's ph less, the whole point of lime is to fight the acidic nature of peat and nutrients.
Take my grow for example, as of late I am using 1TBS dlime per gallon of soil mix, my starting water quality is between 6.8 and 7.0 with ppm's about 300, my teas and nutes make the ph dip low and the lime slowly works the ph back up over time until the next watering or feeding so my soil ph will fluctuate between 6.2 and 7.2 roughly, IMHO a perfect situation.
Your water is shooting your soil ph up as soon as you water, the fact that you use RO water only compacts the problem, water with very low ppm easily sway in ph, if you have ever tried to bring hard water down 2 whole ph points with acid then you know what I am taking about.
Water hardness is synonymous with buffering, the calcium and iron in the hard water fight or buffers changes in ph, purified water doesn't buffer at all.
In short skip the lime, mix your water half RO and half tap and keep using ingredients that are acidic to compensate for your water source.
If you where to use rain water you would probably have more success with a soil mix resembling my recipe, rain water has ph~6.5-70 with a hardness of about 100, woks well with lime.
I hope that is clear, I'm just a franco ****er trying to put it all together.
S
Even after the RO filter if your water's starting ph is enough over 7 then it won't work well with lime.
Basically your using ph down to correct the water AND the dolomite in your soil.
Your much better off not using ANY lime and having to adjust your water's ph less, the whole point of lime is to fight the acidic nature of peat and nutrients.
Take my grow for example, as of late I am using 1TBS dlime per gallon of soil mix, my starting water quality is between 6.8 and 7.0 with ppm's about 300, my teas and nutes make the ph dip low and the lime slowly works the ph back up over time until the next watering or feeding so my soil ph will fluctuate between 6.2 and 7.2 roughly, IMHO a perfect situation.
Your water is shooting your soil ph up as soon as you water, the fact that you use RO water only compacts the problem, water with very low ppm easily sway in ph, if you have ever tried to bring hard water down 2 whole ph points with acid then you know what I am taking about.
Water hardness is synonymous with buffering, the calcium and iron in the hard water fight or buffers changes in ph, purified water doesn't buffer at all.
In short skip the lime, mix your water half RO and half tap and keep using ingredients that are acidic to compensate for your water source.
If you where to use rain water you would probably have more success with a soil mix resembling my recipe, rain water has ph~6.5-70 with a hardness of about 100, woks well with lime.
I hope that is clear, I'm just a franco ****er trying to put it all together.
S
