PH is driving me crazy!!!

[earthwormgod]

I'm in Canna coco feeding canna nutes w/boost. My water is from an RO machine

I started to see a problem with some coloration on a few plants so I flushed with R/O water. The problem now is I cant seem to get the PH down, at least the runoff. My water seems very unstable. When I mix my nutes my tank naturally comes out around 5.5, great right? By the next day im at 5.8 and the next 6.0..... you get the picture. Here is what I dont understand. If my res has a PH of 5.5 how is my runoff at 6.8 to 7.2? I cant seem to fix this (if its even a problem)

The plants look very healthy to me but I need to understand why this is happening. Plants are in my gallery (day 35 pics)

 

[Tactical Farmer]

RO doesnt work stay put because its so "thin / pure / soft" its easily changed by what it is in.

Doing a 50/50 mix with a solid water source will harden it up.

Get my drift ? Sorry Ive been up all night or I would try to give ya more info..

 

[MynameStitch]

Can you please fill this out and give more details about your grow?

Also pictures would help out a lot too.

Answer as many of these questions as possible, the more answered the better you will get your proper diagnosis.

SOIL:
What STRAIN are you growing?
What was the establishing technique? (seed or clone?)
What is the age of your plants?
How Tall are the plants?
What PHASE (seedling, vegetative or flower) are the plants in?
What Technique are you using? (SOG, SCROG etc)
What size pots are you using? (Include how many subjects to pot)
What substrate/medium are you using? What brand of soil mixture are you using?(percentage of perlite, vermiculite...etc?)
What Nutrient's are you using?How much of each with how much water? How Often? *Knowing the brand is very helpful*
What is the TDS/EC/PPM of your nutrients used?
What is the pH of the "RUN-OFF"?
What method of pH test was administered? Using Strips? pH pen?
How often are you watering?
When was your last feeding and how often are you feeding?
What size bulb are you using?
What is the distance to the canopy?
What is your RH Factor? (Relative Humidity)
What is the canopy temperature?
What is the Day/Night Temp? (Include fluctuation range)
What is the current Air Flow? (cfm etc.)
Is the fan blowing directly at plants?
Is the grow substrate constantly wet or moist?
Is your water HARD or SOFT?
What water are you using? Reverse Osmosis (RO)? Tap? Bottled? Well water? Distilled? Mineral Water?
Has plant been recently pruned, cloned or pinched?
Have any pest chemicals been used? If so what and when?
Are plant's infected with pest's?

 

[earthwormgod]

What STRAIN are you growing? canna coco
What was the establishing technique? (seed or clone?) clone
What is the age of your plants? 35 days flower
How Tall are the plants? 32"
Plants are 2 months old
What Technique are you using? (SOG, SCROG etc) run to waste
What size pots are you using? (Include how many subjects to pot) 1 per pot 1 gl
What substrate/medium are you using? What brand of soil mixture are you using?(percentage of perlite, vermiculite...etc?) canna coco
What Nutrient's are you using?How much of each with how much water? How Often? *Knowing the brand is very helpful* canna a+b 11ml per L, 16ml boost per. I mix 20g of water at a time change the res every 5-7 days
What is the TDS/EC/PPM of your nutrients used? 1250ppm
What is the pH of the "RUN-OFF"? varies from 6.6 to 7.1
What method of pH test was administered? Using Strips? pH pen? Pen
How often are you watering? 2 1min feedings per day
When was your last feeding and how often are you feeding? last feeding was 3 hours before they go dark
What size bulb are you using? 600 hps cooled
What is the distance to the canopy? 15"
What is your RH Factor? (Relative Humidity) 44
What is the canopy temperature? 78f
What is the Day/Night Temp? (Include fluctuation range) 83 with the co2 on night temps of 69f
What is the current Air Flow? (cfm etc.)air flow is fine. can fan on the light, one on fresh air in and one for air out
Is the fan blowing directly at plants? one plant seems to get hit more then the others but its ocillating
Is the grow substrate constantly wet or moist? wet
Is your water HARD or SOFT? HARD!!!!!! 650 ppm's out of the sink
What water are you using? Reverse Osmosis (RO)? Tap? Bottled? Well water? Distilled? Mineral Water? R/O
Has plant been recently pruned, cloned or pinched? no
Have any pest chemicals been used? If so what and when? Azitrol mixed in with my nutes and a Dr. Doom was let off a few days ago.
Are plant's infected with pest's? There are mites but they are under control


Pics are in the gallery under "35 days"

 

[MynameStitch]

RO normally stays low pH in the range you want it to be for soiless/hydro grows, if it is not then you are not using pure RO water.

By the next day im at 5.8 and the next 6.0..... you get the picture. Here is what I dont understand. If my res has a PH of 5.5 how is my runoff at 6.8 to 7.2? I cant seem to fix this (if its even a problem)

This is because the plants are removing stored nutrients from the coco, and I can't remember if coco rises later on or not, I think it is......

To counter act this problem, get ahold of some GH PH down mix it with your nutrients,
Are you using like an ebb n flow coco type thing?

 

[earthwormgod]

I do use PH down (when needed) but I wait till my food PH drifts to around 6.2. Once I start using PH down I find that the PH drifts even MORE, upward. At some point I would think adding to much PH down make the situation worse?

As far as not uing real R/O water:
I'm using a 3 stage r/o machine my tap is 650 ppm after the r/o its around 30 ppm. Does this not mean it is real r/o water?

Would it help to mix some tap in with the r/o, even with my ppm's being so high?

 

[Macster2]

If your using a res you'll get large swings if its not big enough

 

[earthwormgod]

I still dont understand why when I put in 5.5 it runs off at 7.1

 

[Tactical Farmer]

I still dont understand why when I put in 5.5 it runs off at 7.1

I use RO alot but it sucks for adjusting the mediums PH - As soon as it hits the medium it changes to the mediums PH due to its pureness.

Thats why it only takes very little PH up or down to change RO water. If it were around good tap ppm say 200 - it would take more PH up or down & that would cause more of a change in the medium.

Your tap sucks real bad at that ppm - Try to mix the RO 3/4 to Tap 1/4 & work with that & see if it helps with runoff.

 

[earthwormgod]

Thanks for the feedback.

Stitch- you said "RO normally stays low pH in the range you want it to be for soiless/hydro grows, if it is not then you are not using pure RO water."
Assuming you're correct, how a is it im having the opposite outcome and im using an R/O unit. Also, Im using a drip system. I water 3 times a day @ 1min intervals (give or take)

Please see pics in gallery labeled "37 days" these pics are from today.

I mixed my nutes 3 days ago in 20gl res. My water PH out of the sink is 7.1. When I mixed my nutes the PH lowered to 5.5. The 2nd day of feeding after mixing the PH drifted to 5.9 and today they were at 7.1. I added PH down (LOTS OF IT) just to get down to 6.2. My runoff is 6.8.

Tactical farmer: you said R/O water is sensitive to PH adjustments (a little goes a long way) why does the opposite seem to be true with my situation? (its driving me mad, i tell you)

If you look at the "37 days" pics you can see what I can only assume is the start of PH issues. Should I flush? What PH water do I flush with? What should the runoff be when flushing, canna coco seem to buffer the medium to around 6.8 -7.0 so should I flush with 7.0 water?

 

[Tactical Farmer]

I grow organic dirt so cant really help ya to much as you method is way different.

Your one leaf "brown" does look PH to me.

 

[MynameStitch]

I do use PH down (when needed) but I wait till my food PH drifts to around 6.2. Once I start using PH down I find that the PH drifts even MORE, upward. At some point I would think adding to much PH down make the situation worse?

As far as not uing real R/O water:
I'm using a 3 stage r/o machine my tap is 650 ppm after the r/o its around 30 ppm. Does this not mean it is real r/o water?

Would it help to mix some tap in with the r/o, even with my ppm's being so high?

no, it is coming out normal. Your coco seems to be alkaline, or did you add anything else to the coco?

When that is like that the akalinity of the coco will make it rise after the plants havr removed the acidic nutrients out of the coco.

When you drip it in there the plants remove it, this is why you need to compensate with pH down, you want the soil to remain slightly acidic so when the plants remove the nutrients from the mixture the pH down will still remain and keep the medium at the level pH it needs to be for maximum uptake of all available nutrients.

My water PH out of the sink is 7.1. When I mixed my nutes the PH lowered to 5.5. The 2nd day of feeding after mixing the PH drifted to 5.9 and today they were at 7.1. I added PH down (LOTS OF IT) just to get down to 6.2. My runoff is 6.8.

This is due to the plants removing the nutrients from the mixture causing it to rise.
How much pH down did you use? Is there anything added to the coco?

No, I would not flush, depending on if there is anything added I will tell you what next step to take, if there is nothing added but the coco, then my advice I said stands what I wrote in this post.

 

[earthwormgod]

Stitch- I have not added anything extra to the coco, just nutes to the water and azatrol for pest control, and PH down.

As far as amounts used, Id say with 10gl of nutes left, with a PH of 7.1, I had to use, around, 20 - 30ml or 1oz.

 

[MynameStitch]

Did you have any pests?
I was not insisting you added anything, I was asking if you did add anything, trying to figure out why your coco pH is so off........

I never heard of coco rising like this which was why I asked if you added anything to it.
When was the last time you added azatrol? How often you add it?

 

[earthwormgod]

Thanks Stitch,

Pests, yeah I do. I had a mite problem, they seemed to mostly be on one palnt. I pulled the plant out of the room and set off a Dr. Doom bomb 2x and mixed Azitrol (1oz per 10gl of water) into my res. Ive been feeding with the Azitrol for 3 feedings now (20gl res x3)

So every feeding has Azitrol mixed in.

As far as the mites go, they're still there but they seem to be controlled, for now. I did let off another round of Dr. Doom this week. One on Sunday morning and one on Wed morning.

 

[Jack Crevalle]

What STRAIN are you growing?What was the establishing technique? (seed or clone?)What is the age of your plants?How Tall are the plants?What PHASE (seedling, vegetative or flower) are the plants in?What Technique are you using? (SOG, SCROG etc)What size pots are you using? (Include how many subjects to pot)What substrate/medium are you using? What brand of soilmixture are you using?(percentage of perlite, vermiculite...etc?)What Nutrient's are you using?How much of each with how much water? HowOften? *Knowing the brand is very helpful*What is the TDS/EC/PPM of your nutrients used?What is the pH of the "RUN-OFF"?What method of pH test was administered? Using Strips? pH pen?How often are you watering?When was your last feeding and how often are you feeding?What size bulb are you using?What is the distance to the canopy?What is your RH Factor? (Relative Humidity)What is the canopy temperature?What is the Day/Night Temp? (Include fluctuation range)
What is the current Air Flow? (cfm etc.)Is the fan blowing directly at plants?
Is the grow substrate constantly wet or moist?Is your water HARD or SOFT?
What water are you using? Reverse Osmosis (RO)? Tap? Bottled? Well water?Distilled? Mineral Water?Has plant been recently pruned, cloned or pinched?Have any pest chemicals been used? If so what and when?
Are plant's infected with pest's?

 

[Mr Celsius]

Why no one reads Big tokes water chemistry is past me. Its in my signature.

Phosphoric acid (ph down) actually raises ph over time and so you get into a perpetual cycle. Marketing ploy or idiocy? You be the judge.

Use fulvic acid for ph down and silica blast/barricade for ph up. Both are beneficial and will actually lower or raise ph for a while. Ph always swings back over time, its just a matter of how long.

Knowledge is power! G I JOOOOe

 

[gmanwho]

Some coco mixes are ph buffered. Coco should get a real good flush even thou they say "steamed & buffered".

Since u already have roots in the coco, try this

What i find works for me ....... For a5 gal bucket full of coco , run 5gal of 5.5 water through with 3 mil cal-mag per gallon ( 1 tbsp per 5 gal bucket, opt the cal mag if over 4 weeks into bloom), check the color and PH of some of the very last runoff. if its high ,run an additional 3 gal 5.5 & cal mag. that usually puts my runn off down to 6.0 after 5 gal run off.

When i get new coco, if u have alot of coco. if u have a sink or a sump hole.

Use a large rubbermaid tub, dump 10 gall of the 5.5 w/calmag into the tub. add the coco slowly till u get a semi thick slurry. keep stirring it for abit. let it sit, and give it another stirring. over say 10 -15 mins. stir sit stir sit etc... or sometimes let it sit over night. ( dont know if it helps sitting overnight, just sometimes whatever i feel at the moment. i imagine it would thou, gives it a nice soak through)

I then have 5 gall paint strainers (depot & lowes) i line my flush bucket with. My flush bucket has lots of holes in the bottom.

take another bucket and pull from the rubbermaid and pour into the strainer lined bucket in a sink or into a sump. Then run the final 5 gal of 5.5 w/calmag through while it in the strainer bucket still.

YES IT IS MESSY AND A WASTE OF WATER, but it works for me, it may work for u. I had problems when i first started using coco, everthing has been muchhhhhhh smoother since i started flushing the hell out of my coco.

BTW i use botanicares 5 kilo brick. and also, in the rubbermaid slurry,wait to u see the sediment and brown sand left behind in hte last of the coco u pull from the rubbermaid.

works for me, may work for u

B-safe

B-safe

 

[earthwormgod]

Jack Crevalle: Im sorry but I dont understand your post.

Mr Celsius: I have read Big tokes water chemistry. One of the things he writes is everyone should use tap when possible - the problem is my water is 650ppm from the tap!! It really sucks ass. At the beginning of my post I asked if I should mix my tap water with my R/O, if that will help stabilize my water and/or if it'll make things worse, still not sure of the answer btw. Big toke also said that phosphoric acid tends to buffer the PH at roughly 6.5, Im finding that my res is drifting to 7.2 in less than 3 days! Actually, I dont add PH down till the 3rd day, the first day after mixing the nutes the PH is 5.5, the 2nd day it drifts to 5.9, its not till the 3rd day that it hits 7.1. By that time it takes me close to 1oz of PH down to get it to 6.2 in a 10gl res. I left it at 6.2 last night and fed. Tonight is when I need to make a decision on what to do to fix things.

 

[earthwormgod]

Stitch, what happened to ya?