PH DOWNERS

[magoo420]

I'VE BEEN HAVING PROBLEMS WITH A ROOT FUNGUS I'VE USED HYDROGUARD, AND PLANTACILLIN.....IM GROWING IN A HYDROFARM....WATER TEMP72 DEG.....ROOTS NOW WHITE AGAIN BUT I CANT KEEP THE PH DOWN ... I CHECHK IT EVERY FEW HOURS AND ITS UP IN THE MID 7'S, AND I LOWER TO 6.5...... ECT... ANY HELP PLEASE!!!!!!

 

[Rosy Cheeks]

Use nitric acid for veg and phosphoric acid in flower to lower and fix your ph. You can use anything acid really, such as lemon juice or vinegar, but the effect will not be as long lasting and stable as with the two first. You can get those products in the same place as where you bought the Hydroguard.

 

[macster]

Also your 1 gal res is much to small

 

[Sauron The Blue]

Use nitric acid for veg and phosphoric acid in flower to lower and fix your ph. You can use anything acid really, such as lemon juice or vinegar, but the effect will not be as long lasting and stable as with the two first. You can get those products in the same place as where you bought the Hydroguard.

Gotta disagree with that one, I wouldnt use nitric acid in veg or phosphoric acid in flowering. Using nitric acid in a nutrient solution optimized to feed nitrogen hungry plants may lockout the nitrogen in the nutrient solution, making it unavailable to the plants. Also using phosphoric acid in a nutrient solution optimized for feeding flowering plants may lock out phosphorus, preventing the plants from reaching their full potential.

At this point in time, I use citric acid, I find it doesnt interfere with my nutrient program as much as others on the market would containing phosphoric or nitric acid. I disagree with the effect being more short lived with citric than other ph adjusters, also with how it makes it less stable?

magoo: the amount of ph adjustment you are having to do is often related to the buffering capacity of your starting water. Tap water has a lot of calcium bicarbonite in it, reverse osmosis water does not have much calcium in it, if any. the hydrogen ions in the calcium bicarbonate bind with the hydrogen ions in the acid you use, resulting in water, which doesnt lower the ph much however when it does bind it leaves behind nitrogen ions (nitric acid) and phosphorus ions (phosphoric acid) which will increase the nutrient levels in your nutrient solution, often causing a toxicity or lockout of that nutrient.. Once you add enough acid to have a chemical reaction with all of the calcium hydrogen ions you will begin to change the ph as there is no more reaction taking place.


I use earth juice's natural ph down as it contains citric acid, if you used that and RO water i would expect better results, you may get by with just a change to RO water if your using tap currently.

Hope this helps ya out some.
-stb

 

[magoo420]

THANKS SAURON THE BLUE...... THE WATER I'M USING IS FROM A WELL WITH A PH OF 7..... DONT REALLY KNOW BUT THE CAKCIUM COULD BE A PROBLEM......AND AS FOR MY PH DOWN I USE EARTH JUICE.... IT'S ALLWAS BEEN STABLE FOR ME TILL THIS ROOT PROBLEM.....ALLSO I DO USE A FILTER ON MY WATER NO IDEA OF WHAT MICRON IT IS THOUGH.....I'M GOING TO RINCE THE BASKET TODAY AND SEE IF MAYBE IT JUST ROTTING OLD ROOTS CAUSING THE PH STABILITY PROBLEM.....ALL I CAN SAY IS IT'S A FIRST FOR ME...... STILL OPEN TO IDEAS....PS THANKS FOR THE IDEAS

 

[Rosy Cheeks]

Gotta disagree with that one, I wouldnt use nitric acid in veg or phosphoric acid in flowering. Using nitric acid in a nutrient solution optimized to feed nitrogen hungry plants may lockout the nitrogen in the nutrient solution, making it unavailable to the plants. Also using phosphoric acid in a nutrient solution optimized for feeding flowering plants may lock out phosphorus, preventing the plants from reaching their full potential.

At this point in time, I use citric acid, I find it doesnt interfere with my nutrient program as much as others on the market would containing phosphoric or nitric acid. I disagree with the effect being more short lived with citric than other ph adjusters, also with how it makes it less stable?

I've actually never heard of that nitric acid can lockout the nitrogen in the nutrient solution (unless you mean that using too much will cause your ph to drop so low that nitrogen is no longer uptakeable by the plant), so I will have to check on it before I can comment. But my initial reaction to it is that it doesn't make sense. I've never experienced any kind of lockout from nitric or phosphoric acid, after using it for years. Both are marketed by most major nutrient manufacturers and sold in just about any hydro store, which I doubt would be the case if it caused lock-out problems. Nitric acid is generally used as ph down when growing in hard water (which I do), since it is more reactive than phosphoric acid, and lower doses are needed to obtain a good ph level. I recommend nitric acid in veg because it creates a nitric environment in the medium, and phosphoric acid in flower because it creates a phosphoric environment, but in theory you can use any. I can recommend Growth Technology's nitric acid, as well as Canna's. General Hydroponic has a ph down consisting of both nitric and phosphoric acid, which I use when I run GH 3 part.

Citric acid is inferior to both because it is an organic substance, and as any organic substance it changes in ph as it decomposes. Citric acid may take your ph down just as efficiently as nitric and phosphoric acid, but it will not stabilize the ph as efficiently and for as long as a non-organic ph down.

 

[SweetIndica2]

I gotta agree with rosy on this one, as i use phosphoric acid and nitric acid for ph up and ph down also. Not once have i had any problems with using them whatsoever. My plants also seem to be uptaking nutrients fine. I doubt they would sell it, if it caused problems with your plants. GH uses those acids in their ph up and down, and so does vita grow (the one i use) and a few others.

 

[magoo420]

...i'm hearing what you all are saying ....i've used phosporic acid and was having the same problem..... before the root fungus problem my ph stayed level..... now in just 3 or 4 hours the ph will raise 1 full point, this is my problem....

 

[Sauron The Blue]

Rosy - Im sorry it doesnt make sense to you, I explained it the best I could do. I will try to find an online source to explain it better. Yes they are both marketed for ph down, as is citric acid, marketing shouldnt make one better than another so im gonna leave that one out.

If your nutrient levels are high (read: proper for the stage of growth) in your plants, adding either of the acids mentioned above is going to increase the nutrient level in the nutrient solution. So..if you add an acid that increases the nitrogen or the phosphorus level, not only was your ph originally off, you may have underfed your babies, as they were deficient in that nutrient. Unless they are able to accept a broad range of ppm of nitrogen and phosphorus I dont see how adding more than a 1/4tsp a gallon or so of either wouldnt result in a lockout or burn, unless your nutrient profile was off and deficient for those nutrients in the first place.

I thought most used phosphoric acid because it was safer to use?

I read most all this on a growell UK site from back when cw was around give me a few mins and ill dig it up

Looking back on it I would say not to use phosphoric acid at all? I do like your thoughts on citric acid as organic and therefor decays away, ill have to look into it some as well.

 

[Sauron The Blue]

http://www.hydroponicsbc.com/pH.html

What is pH all about?

Maintenance of the proper pH in the irrigation stream helps prevent chemical reaction of fertilizers in the irrigation lines. High solution pH can cause line clogging precipitates to form. Correct pH level ensures that phosphates remain in the more soluble hydrogen form and that minor elements are more available for plant uptake. Minor element deficiencies can result from high pH. What is pH? The abbreviation pH stands for "Potential Hydrogen" and refers to the concentration of positively charged hydrogen ions (H+) relative to negatively charged hydroxyl ions (OH-), in a substance. Hydrogen ions are acidic in nature while hydroxyl ions are basic or alkaline in nature. The pH scale, which measures the concentration of hydrogen ions runs from zero to 14 with 7 being neutral (equal number of H+ and OH- ions). Any value below 7.0 indicates acidity and any value above 7.0 indicates basic or alkaline conditions.
An acid such as Nitric Acid (HNO3) or phosphoric acid is a substance which, when added to water, breaks apart or "ionizes" to provide hydrogen (H+) ions. A base ionizes to provide hydroxyl ions (OH-). The terms strong and weak applied to acids indicate the degree of ionization they undergo. A strong acid such as hydrochloric in a dilute solution undergoes 100% ionization whereas a weak acid like acetic exhibits only 4% ionization. In North America most water supplies are alkaline. In addition plants tend to make the root environment more basic. When a plant takes up nitrate ions, which are negatively charged, the roots shed negatively charged hydroxyl ions to maintain electrical balance. This raises the pH of the root environment. When positively charge ammoniumions are taken up, positively charged hydrogen ions are shed, acidifying the root environment.
When deciding on a pH correction program, the pH of the water is not the only thing to consider, Buffering capacity (the ability of the water to resist pH change) has to be taken into account. The buffering capacity of water is related to the amount of bicarbonate (usually calcium bicarbonate) that is present. If there is a lot of bicarbonate present, much more acid is needed because of the reaction that takes place between the bicarbonate and the acid. The acid that Is added initially to water containing bicarbonate is Used up in this reaction. The hydrogen ion from the calcium bicarbonate molecule (above) and the hydrogen ion from the nitric acid molecule (above) combine to form water. This means that the hydrogen ion from the acid is locked up and therefore does not lower the pH. Once sufficient acid has reacted with the bicarbonate present, any additional acid added will contribute hydrogen ions to lower the pH; therefore, the more bicarbonate that is present, the more acid wit) be needed before free hydrogen ions are available to lower the pH.

Many fertilizer components are acidic and lower the pH, while others are alkaline and raise the pH. To achieve the proper pH with fertilizer alone, however, would require water with little to no bicarbonate present, When nitric acid ionizes, it provides nitrogen ions as well as hydrogen ions; phosphoric acid provides phosphorous. Which acid should you use? Consider the following: Plants use more nitrogen than phosphorous. In addition, high phosphorous levels can cause the formation of calcium and magnesium phosphate; a hard, scale-like precipitate than can coat, and eventually plug, feed lines. It may, according to speculation, even coat plant roots, blocking air passages. Further, high phosphorous levels can hinder the uptake of some minor elements, We believe phosphoric acid should be used only if the amount of acid required is constant and the level of phosphorous provided by the phosphoric acid will not create excessive phosphorous levels in the solution. If you are using a "proprietary" blended fertilizer such as 20-20-20, phosphoric acid should likely not be used at all, as the levels of phosphorous in the blend are usually at an optimum level.

It seems nitric acid is the better choice in many instances. Bear in mind that nitric acid is more dangerous to use. Nitric acid is highly corrosive and produces poisonous fumes when exposed to the atmosphere in the concentrated form. A spray mask, eye protection and rubber gloves should be worn when handling it. Nitric acid is much less hazardous once diluted. Concentrated nitric acid should be stored in sealed glass or stainless steal containers.

Potential Hydrogen can be important for more than fertilization and irrigation. It also plays in the use of some pesticides. Alkaline water can break up the molecules of certain pesticides in a process called alkaline hydrolysis, reducing the activity of the chemical. This problem is heightened if the tank mix will be sitting for any length of time prior to application and if ambient temperatures are high. There are other greenhouse compounds rendered more effective if the water added to is pH corrected before hand.

...

Sorry it wasnt the growell site, but this was where I read it at, ill try to dig up some more info as ithink i paraphrased it pretty similar to how they explained it before.
-stb

 

[Sauron The Blue]

from growell.co.uk their ph down

For very hard water areas

Growers in very hardwater areas may need to use a lot of pH Down. If this is the case then we suggest you use Nitric Acid (38%) as this tends to affect the composition of the nutrient less than using phosphoric acid.

also from technaflora customer service..they may know something...
http://www.technaflora.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=1197&sid=749a07f2edf3696a65ba194c365185ca

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madscientest wrote:
We've recently had to change to a new water source, which is plentiful but contains iron. Adjusting the pH has proved very perplexing. When the water first comes out, it is clear and it's pH is about 6.9, but over the next 24 hours as it sets, the pH goes up to about 8.3 as the iron begins to precipitate out. {Why does this happen?} This takes place in a large plastic garbage can, so it changes as it sets in the same container. We used to use phosphoric acid to bring the pH down in the water we previously used, but with this iron water we found the amount required was toxic to the plants. We purchased the Technaflora pH down product since it uses a different type of acid (nitric). In order to bring the pH down from 8.3 to 7.4 requires 1/4 cup per 50 gallons. Is this a toxic amount? Can we use more to bring down the pH further? We have also been using General Hydroponics nutrients; how does nitric acid react with this? Also, does the nitric acid provide nitrogen to the plants? Does it require a reduction in nutrients containing nitrogen?
We have been pulling our hair out about this--please help!


Madscientest,
Your actual water problem is not due to the iron and the problem is caused by high amounts of bicarbanates/carbonates in the water. In case if you have done a water analysis, please check what is the alkalinity and the hardness of water. It will tell you the bicarbonate level in the water. At low pH (bellow 7) iron is available as Fe++ and at high pH it oxidizes to Fe+++ and precipitates causing iron deficiencies. At pH level of 8.3 this is very obvious.

At the same time at high pH levels phosphorous is less available and will precipitate. If you are using a pH down product that includes phosphoric acid you are agrevating the problem. It does not help to bring the pH down and added phosphoric will be precipitated and you will see more and more precipitates when you add phosphoric acid. Changing it to Nitric acid will definitely help at this situation, as it does not precipitate at high pH situation. 1/4cup of Technaflora pH down per 50 gallon is totally fine and it only adds 0.02% Nitrate Nitrogen. Therfore no need to reduce nitrogen in your mixture.

When you are using fertilizer from any company please look for raw materials that they are using to get their N, P and K numbers. Most companies use cheap bicarbonates/carbonates to achieve this. You can see this if you check the "Derived from" section on the label. General Hydroponics (GH) they use Potassium carbonates and Magnesium carbonates in their fertilizer formulas (Flora grow, Flora bloom, Flora micro). Therefore in your case using GH products again agrevate the problem as they add huge amounts of carbonates and bicarbonates. That is why you have seen pH is going up. At the same time check Techanflora products as well. We never use cheap bicarbonates to make our products. We use only the primium quality raw materials. As your water is reaching high pH levels, most probably your plants will show iron and Phosphorous deficiency symptoms as well. To reduce this use fertilizers with chelated iron such as iron EDTA and Iron DTPA or Iron EDDHA. Chelated forms will avoid the precipitation.

As a summary, to solve your problem:

Test bicorbanate and carbonate levels in your water before mixing fertilizer and after mixing fertilizers (this will veryfy what I explained).
Avoid adding fertilizers that contain carbaonate and bicarbonate versions of raw materials (in this case you have to choose another option to GH products).
Stick with Technaflora pH Down which contains Nitric acid and the amount you are adding is very fine.
Do not reduce the nitrogen level in your formulas/recipe.
Use fertilizers with chelated iron such as Iron EDTA, Iron DTPA or Iron EDDHA.
Do not only use pH measuremnets use EC (electrical conductivity) measurement when you are adjusting nutrients in your reservoir, specially when you adjust pH.
Maintain pH between 5.9-6.5 level and EC level 1-2.5 ms/s level.
Hope this will help you. Incase if you have further questions please do not hesitate to contact us at 604 468 4769.



Thank You.

Sincerely,

Ranil

Think that says it all. Maybe I will give nitric a shot here once im out of the citirc acid or the rare times I have a few extra bucks around for that stuff
-stb

 

[magoo420]

THANKS SAURON THE BLUE, ANY IDEAS WHERE TO GET nitric acid, and or under what product names?

 

[Rosy Cheeks]

Nothing to be sorry about, we're all just trying to understand and to learn from each other.
I read through your text, and I'd say it's pretty much a write-up for nitric acid. Which I recommend. They talk about probems you can encounter, but it's hypothetical. I never encountered any whatsoever problem with either phosphoric or nitric acids, except when trying to use it in foliar feeding.
I've got good water quality, which helps against most problems.
Phosphoric acid safer to use? Nitric acid is just a tad sharper. I use 0.6ml/l of phosphoric acid on a liter of water, and 0.4ml/l of nitric acid on a liter. Once you've dialed it in, it's a no-brainer.

But I can understand the citric acid alternative. It's biological, you just have to put a bit more in a bit more often, and stay close to your plants.

 

[Sauron The Blue]

I cant use phosphoric acid with my setup thats only reason I switched to citric acid a while back, ever since then I have had no ph issues or Phosphorus issues, Lots of times I had purple stems and burning lower leaves with the same stength nute solution im running now with phosphoric acid. All of those went away then, as did the purpling of stems in strains like trainwreck.

Believe me it was a search to find an alternative, at the shops in my area all they had was gh ph down and that was causin me probs with hardwater, hardwater being 300+ ppm, mine maxes out around 450! So I had to switch over to ro, with ro I use barely any ph adjusters, and sometimes i even have to use ph up.

 

[Anima]

I grow in dirt, not hydro...but..
Cheap Beer will lower PH safely, a little goes a long way. Be careful though, I added a bit too much to a guano tea I had bubbling one time and it foamed up like no tomarrow (probably the reason hydro growers don't use it), but the plants seemed to love it...micro organisms love it too.

Oh and it might be a bit of a hassle to find nitric acid, because I believe it is a hazardous (not to mention potentially bomb making) material. careful...
good luck!

Oh and BTW if it was me with the root fungus, I'd get some samples of it and grow it out on purpose, and get a positive ID, while doing tests on it (temp, PH, oxygen concentration, nute PPM, maybe some tap water...) try to find a combination of enviro-factors that the cannabis can hack it in, and the fungus can't. You might lose a cutting or 2, but the knowledge gained from such experience can possibly be priceless...
also as well as the above factors I might try to find another fungus that will form a symbiotic relationship with the plant and out compete the "bad" fungi.
and as I think about this more and more, it is more likely that you are suffering from bacteria rather than fungi..either way you should do these experiments away from your crop to avoid further contamination..

Rather than being like "aww man" everytime something doesn't go according to plan, try to be like "what can I learn from this and how can it benefit me in the future?"

 

[magoo420]

I hear ya Anima, I getting all organics out of the system. I will figure this out and your right maybe I can find something that eats the dead material....oh yeah, only one plant involved in this problem,all the others are just fine

 

[magoo420]

ANIMA..... I JUST DUMPED ALL THE WATER RINSED THE ROOTS, AND GOT A LOT OF DEAD MATER. I PUT IN 2 GALS. OF RO WATER AT 68 DEG. PH SET AT 5.8.... AND 1/2 TEA SPOON OF DUTCH MASTERS ZONE NO NUTRIENTS. PH SHOULD NOT MOVE NOW... THE PLANT IS STILL LOOKING VERY HEALTHY TOP SIDE NO SIGNS OF ANY DEFICIENCY'S.....ALL THIS IS IN A HYDRO FARM WITH ADDITIONAL AIR BEING PUMPED INTO THE BUCKET.....ROOM TEMP 76 DEGS.....LET ME KNOW IF I'M HEADING IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION....THANKS

 

[Anima]

You sound like you know what you are doing mate...like I said I am a dirt grower...I don't know much about hydro cept you guys like to lower PH farther than us..
but cleaning up up sounds like it couldn't hurt...