Paging Dr. Stitch...we have an emergency

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You are looking at one blackberry and one hash plant in the same 5 gal bucket. System is recirculating DWC with no medium (plants are held into bucket lid with neoprene collars). Nutes are constantly pumped into the bucket from the rez and return back through a 1/2" gravity return line.

Under an air cooled (cool tube) 600 HPS, around 80f day and around 70f night, rez temp is around 70f. Around 40% to 45% 30 days 12/12

PH is 5.8
tap water starts at 260
total ppm, 1250
I use the following mix per gallon:
15ml hydroguard
3ml SM90
10 to 15ml BigBud
10ml Sweet
3ml Dark Energy (like liquid karma)
top to desired ppm with PBP bloom (currently at 1250 ppm total)

Here's what we're lookin at











As you can see, the hash plant seems furter progressed in whatever deff. this is. The hash plant leaves looked like the blackberry does now, about a week and a half ago.

here's some close ups of the leaves once they actually die and fall off (notice the black specs) FYI, there are no bugs of any kind, I have look at every nanometer of plant matter!






and finally, here's the roots. I've never used organics in hydro and I'm told this dark staining is normal. There no smell of rot (I know that smell and will never forget it), and when I move these root balls in the bucket, the water clouds up dark with what appears to be particles of nutes and such (dark brown particles).





Per someone's advise, I changed to just plain water adjusted to 5.6 PH and will let them float in that a complete light cycle.

My question is this, what is this deff. and how can I fix/prevent this. Thanks.

 

[Sauce]

What are your water temps?

Due to the very dark patches, inconsistency in dark patches, and the somewhat clear water, it looks like you have root rot. I have had root rot in DWC and it looked very similar. With your fingers gently rub the darkest areas of roots between 2 fingers. With root rot the heavily affected roots will just fall apart with a little force. Do this and report back. It could be just nute stained roots but they look too dark for that imo.

And don't use SM-90 with Hydroguard. SM-90 will kill off beneficials and all the Hydroguard you added to the res. I believe it says this on the bottle too. Both are good products but should not be used together.

 

[420KushMaster]

hello

the three blade leafs look odd on that plant did you reveg that plant? i revegged and go those same leafs.

its not a pest problem at all goodlcuk

 

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forgot temps, rez temp is 69 to 71f, and room temps are 79 to 81f day and 68 to 70f night.

And these are around 30 days or so flower.

Sauce, I tried to test the strenght of the roots, but i will try like you said around the darkest patches and report back. However, those darkest patches can be "washed" away by kind of dunking the root ball up and down in the bucket (when I say go away I mean those spots will then look like the rest of the roots. It's like the nutes are settling in those spots.

So should I only use SM90 or Hydroguard? Also, I use pirhana in veg, I'm guessing SM90 should not be used with that either since its also bacteria. I just started the SM90 at the suggestion of someone else, I do like the smell tho.

420, the plant got really stressed a while ago (like a couple months ago) while vegging under HPS, the plant was moved back under a floro and healed up, but some leaves came out thre bladed.

What would you do if this is root rot? I've heard you can dunk in H2O2 but how much and how long? thanks

 

[Sauce]

However, those darkest patches can be "washed" away by kind of dunking the root ball up and down in the bucket (when I say go away I mean those spots will then look like the rest of the roots. It's like the nutes are settling in those spots.

-If that's the case then they are probably alright. I'd still say try rubbing them just to be sure. The water temps sound fine so no problems there. Temps are the largest factor in root rot, although pump size also plays a factor too.

So should I only use SM90 or Hydroguard? Also, I use pirhana in veg, I'm guessing SM90 should not be used with that either since its also bacteria. I just started the SM90 at the suggestion of someone else, I do like the smell tho.

-Yeah don't use it with Piranha either. Not sure which you should use. I've used both and in my experience Hydroguard seems to prevent root rot and SM-90 seems to slow its progress once the root rot sets in. It's also a wetting agent and as such makes the roots more permeable. Both are good, so up to you.

What would you do if this is root rot? I've heard you can dunk in H2O2 but how much and how long? thanks

-If it really is root rot, I'd use either Hydroguard + Piranha or SM-90 + h2o2. H2o2 will also kill beneficials but it increases o2 and kills the bad bacteria too.

I too love the smell of SM-90, makes me want to take a swig of the bottle lol.


Good luck with solving the problem. Unfortunately I don't know what's wrong with the leaves. I'd check ph asap though if you haven't.

Nevermind, re-read your 1st post and ph is fine.

Sauce

 

[Guvnor]

Looks like a P deficiency With the browning of the edges and the way the tips are curling up. Its seem to be affecting the outter part of the leaf then making its way inward?
What stage of flowering are you, also what are those those supplemets your putting in your rez? I know them all except sweet and dark energy. The reason it may be affectng the Hp more could be due to the different nute levels they require. Each strain likes it different.
Do the affected area's feel glass like and do the damage leave pull off easy?

Not saying this is the correct diagnosis, just looks that way to me. P is also very benefictal to root growth, which also led me along this path.
Im sure stich will be 'ere soon

All The Best
guv'nor

 

[MynameStitch]

ok from the looks of it, it does not look like root rot imo for this reason, the plant would have lots of more problems if it was root rot, if it was root rot and it was as bad as it looks the plant would have alot more problems

organic nutrients can cause discoloration to the roots and leave clot like stuff that can ber washed away

if your res temps are kept under 70 and you have enough air you shouldnt get root rot if you keep your res clean,

when was the last time you flushed out your system?

because the problem your having right now is a buildup of salts, left over nutrients from the res and buckets not being washed out.

and because of that its getting locked out of magniseum and iron..

you need to flush out your entire system tubes and all and rinse those roots off a bit
you can clean the res with a mild soap and water or water and bleech solution

what color of tubes are you using for your setup blue or black?

your ph is fine as well, your problem is just from left over salt buildup

how big are the plants in your setup?
i dont see a ppm problem here, just a buildup

+ you have hydroguard added which helps prevent root rot, but not everything is 100% perfect.

i would add some h202 to your system when you clean out your system as a boost to deterent any bacteria buildup from left over salts

how close is your light to your plants? and have you checked your plants for bugs?

 

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Update pics below. Well, they have now been flushing with plain water (5.6 PH) for a complete light cycle and the problem looks worse to me. The Blackberry leaves that were showing intervenal chlorosis now are more yellow on the whole leaf (maybe a N deff. from the plain water?).












Stitch,
"when was last flush?" currently fushing and plan to add nutes back tonight (flushed for one light cycle).

"what color are your lines?" 1/2" gravity and 1/2" feed line are black. The main black feed line has blue 1/4" tubing (like for airstone) coming off for each bucket.

"how big are plants?" they are small, like 2 foot.

"how close is light?" about 12" or so (maybe less) but its air cooled in a cool tube.

I will wash the roots tonight and re-add nutes and some H202 (how much 3% H2O2 per gal?). Also, the ppm did not raise during the flush and there is no medium, I don;t think this is salt lock-out but maybe I'm wrong. I had other plant (different strain do this near the same time (around 30 days flowering) and made me have a small yeild. This sux.. any more ideas?

 

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and a purple budshot for good measure....

 

[MynameStitch]

WELL in hydro when you flush, you need to add nutrients after a good flush, you just cant add plain water for long peorids of time, now since you flushed they need some magniseum, the damaged leaves will not recover, just let the plant drop them dont remove them

you do have a saqlt buildup, 100% its from not flushing out your res, when plants use nutrients up there is left overs the plant doesnt use and it sits in the water, all nutrients are different, some do this some dont, its obviosly yours does

thats why you are supossed to flush out your res and clean it out every 2 weeks max
most people do it every week to maintain a healthy root system and system itself

ok good black tubing is what you want, blue tubing can cause alge growth because it absorbs some light with the blue tubes

but yes the problem you are having is a buildup, you flushed good it seems now you need to add your nutrients back, get wsome magniseum in there too, cause they are showing the mag deficiency

what ppm's was your nutrients before the flush?

you want to start a little low under that mark for a few days and add more so the plants can recover from the problem

 

[seek_UP]

stitch,

thanks for the help. I added some H202 to the plain water last night and let in run. I will change that water out and add nutes back tonight (I will start with a more dilluted concentration of nutes). I'll report back.

A quick questions tho, if you are using net cups with Silica stone medium (I'm not this round but will next), when flushing, do you need to pour plain water through the net cups from the top to flush out the medium? thanks

 

[dre86]

Nice flowers on those...I wish thee the best and send some positive K to you

 

[SDBX2]

One question I've been asking myself (I have the same problem) recently is - do I have root rot or do I have overfertilisation/build up?
Perhaps the answer is we both have slight root rot DUE to over fertilisation?

Ok I'm doing NFT and the leaves are going the same way as yours. The root are a bit brown but are not in fact getting any worse. Perhaps a little better if anything since I started looking at them a lot since I noticed the problem.

I flushed with ph adjusted water with a full dose of enzymes in it. Now I am running a fairly mild nutrient mix with again - a full dose of enzymes in it. Cannazym in my case.

I have brought myself some "friendly fungus" powder. And Rhizotonic. Kind of lots of treats for the roots.
I'm not gonna go the h2o2 way I don't think.

Dunno whether it's pythium yet. Hoping it isn't and it's general withering of the roots due to a salt build up, which hopefully I've rectified now.
Get yourself a pythium tester kit just to have lying around.

My plants have also stopped drinking quite a fair bit, have yours?

Hope that gives you some ideas.

I personally think from the pics of the roots, leaves, and description it's mild root rot AND salt build up. Whether the two are connected I don't know - I'm trying to work that one out.

 

[seek_UP]

dre, thx for the kind words bro and may some good K find its wat to you as well...

sdbx2, I think it is possible that I was overfeeding them a bit as well because there right before I started to flush, they were not drinking hardly anything. I have never used organic nutes before so I have sitting here watching the roots get darker and darker and thought that was just part of using organic nutes. I just recently started running these in a recirculating system (they were in just a stand alone bucket as they were moms). I'm starting to lean towards the idea that with the organic nutes being so thick and non-chelated, that the "sediment" like particles were settling around the roots and kind of chocking them out. Also, I've never groun mediumless before and it just seemed like an easy solution at the time (right from the cloner to a bucket).

In hind-sight, I think maybe with no medium, there is less room for error in minor PH swings and nute availability (this is a guess only, I'm no expert). I let them flush in plain h2o for a full light cycle then added quite a bit of 3% h2o2 for one light cycle. Tonight I will swap the h2o2 water for some fresh water with diluted nutes and work my way back up. I looked at the roots this morning and they noticably lighter in color and I'm thinking the h202 will have cleaned out any nasties in my lines.

It kind of sux cause I spend a lot of time trying to be precise and what not and a buddy of mine grew the same cut of the hashplant and got great success. Why does this suck you ask? Cause he doesn't do shit to his girlsn ot even adjust the PH!

Post back if you figure out what's causing this to your girls and I'll keep this updated on my end.

puff-puff all...

 

[seek_UP]

oh yeah, what is this pythium test kit?

 

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well, instead of draining the h202 water out, I just added nutes to it, I figured this way the girls can get some nutes and continue get a root cleaning at the same time. The roots look noticably better at this point. I added nutes back to about half strenght and plan to bump it back up slowy through the week. I added the following nutes/sups:

SM90
Calmag
BigBud
PBP Bloom

Started with my 250 or so ppm tap and came to about 650 ppm (was at 1250 to 1350 prior to this whole debacle).

Weekly flushses for me from this point on! One question for regular flushers out there, do you drain your plain water you were flushing with or do you just add nutes to that same water?

I'll throw up some more pics monday and we'll see if she looks any better... have a good one guys and gals.... and don't forget puff your nuggies...

 

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UPDATE...

UPDATE...

Back with some updates... The girls are now up to about 810 ppm and they seem to be taking this exact amount down so I plan to keep them here for a bit. The damaged leaves aren't getting better (as stitch said they wouldn't) but the girls are frostin' up, plumpin' up, and the pistils are a changin' (<-- in his best Dylan voice).

The roots look better, there's plenty of new white root growth.. One thing tho, seems like the plants are finishing faster than normal. They are at around 38 12/12 and most pistils are already turned....

here's some shot's for ya's....





















and last but not least, the guard kitty, stoned on catnip...

 

[SDBX2]

Personally I would drain the flushed water and refill - just to be on the safe side. It could contain deposits of certain chemicals and not others - therefore causing an imbalance in the nutrients. That's the way I see it anyway.

There's another thread somewhere with the "Python no spill pump" or something like that - excellent for draining and refilling tanks. I'm gonna get one as soon as I can.

Your buds look really nice though - I think you're gonna get a just fine crop through despite these problems.