P Deficiency?

[hurricane]

Greetings

What system are you running? (DWC? Ebb flow? Aero? Water Farm? Flood Tables? and so on...) Recirculating Coco
What STRAIN are you growing? Hindu Skunk
What was the establishing technique? (Were the seed or clone?) Clone
What is the age of your plants? 2 Weeks from planting
How tall are the plants? 10"
What PHASE are the plants in? (seedling, vegetative or flower) are the plants in? Flower Day 8
What Technique are you using? SOG
What substrate/medium are you using?(Hydroton, RockWool etc.) COCO
What is the Water temperature? 20-21C
What color are your roots? White? Brown? Are your roots slimy? White on the edges of the pot
What Nutrient's are you using? How much of each if using multiple? PBP soil bloom @10ml/gal, calmag+ @ 3ml/gal
What is the TDS/EC/PPM you are using? EC 1.0, ppm [email protected]
What is the pH of the "Tank"? Varies, 5.8-6.4
Are you sure your calibration is correct on your equiptment? Calibrated 2 wks ago
When was your last watering? Flower day 6(2d ago)
What is your water temps? 20-21C
When was your last feeding change? (ie. grow-bloom-micro-additional) started clones on LK+calmag, switched to pbpsb+calmag arround day 4 of veg.
How often do you clean your system: example: Flush out water replace with clean water and nutrients? 2 wks ago
What size bulb are you using? 400W CMH
What is the distance to the canopy? 11-15"
What is your RH Factor(Relative Humidity)? 55%
What is the canopy temperature? 76
What is the Day/Night Temp? (Include flucutaion range) 60-80
What is the current Air Flow? (cfm etc.) Stanley Blower, approx 250CFM
Is the fan blowing directly at plants? 2 other fans blowing on plants
Is your water HARD or SOFT? soft
What water are you using? Reverse Osmosis (RO)? Tap? Bottled? Well water? Distilled? Mineral Water? RO at first, rained a bit so last 12G were tap water, ppm [email protected]. pumped it out of the collection container with a pantyhose filter to have fairly pure rainwater. Will be filling with RO again in the future, the rainwater was just convenient.
Has plant been recently pruned, cloned off of or pinched? No
Have any pest chemicals been used? If so, What and When? No
Are plant's infected with pest's? No

Ok, i was checking out my plants today. Yesterday i noticed one or two plants with a few top leaves going brown on the edge. Today a see a few more plants going the same way. Comparing to the guide i think its a P deficiency, but i will of course have pictures at the bottom for you all to decide. There has also been some discoloration of the bottom leaves, but i haven't worried because its only the origional leaves the plants came with, anything new was looking healthy and green. You can also see a few leaves that are rolled up at the very tip, but thats been there over a week from when i fed them ec1.8 by not understanding my meter.

The last feeding i gave the plants the return EC was 0.7, pH 6.9. Return pH has me worried a little bit. Ingoing was EC 1.0 pH 6.3. I've been putting the res back down to 5.8 when it gets to 6.5, was told thats a proper range for coco. I'll make sure its low, 5.7 or 5.8, on the next watering.

Should i be increasing nutrient dosages here? or is it maybee a pH problem and i need to flush the medium? I'm really clueless when it comes to plant problems i always just hope they grow green Heres 3 pics of the leaves, and an extra to show you what the system looks like.










Hurricane

 

[HeadyPete]

Hi Hurricane, hard to tell if that is K def or cal def, could you post some clear closeups of the leaf edge spots? A tripod is a great tool for super clear shots.

If it is cal def than most likely your ph is a little low, I'd aim for 6.3, 5.8 is the lowest edge of range and cal and P will lockup if you dip lower.

The crispy tip is overfeeding, you bloom dose is high for this phase, I'd go half that for about 4 weeks. It's had to get true ppm readings with organic ferts, so don't trust those numbers, trust your plants.

 

[hurricane]

Hi Hurricane, hard to tell if that is K def or cal def, could you post some clear closeups of the leaf edge spots? A tripod is a great tool for super clear shots.

If it is cal def than most likely your ph is a little low, I'd aim for 6.3, 5.8 is the lowest edge of range and cal and P will lockup if you dip lower.

The crispy tip is overfeeding, you bloom dose is high for this phase, I'd go half that for about 4 weeks. It's had to get true ppm readings with organic ferts, so don't trust those numbers, trust your plants.

Hmm, i will try and get some better shots, lights come on in about 7 hours. About the overfeeding, i suppose its possible, although full strength of pbp is 30ml/gal, so i'm already running about 1/3 strength, half that brings me to 1/6 orrigional strength. They've been on this dose of ec .9-ec 1.0 since this pic here, about 10 days, 3 feedings ago. Before that was ec 1.0 of liquid kharma andcalmag+

 

[MynameStitch]

Recirculating coco???
First I ever heard of this one.......

You have drippers or something feeding your coco?

the pics in there are some burning you had when your EC was high, your problem may be not enough calcium/potassium, possible from the cause of the high pH you have been having or not being stable enough.

I would first fix the pH problem and make sure it stays stable, what are you using to adjust the pH?
How in the hell do you have it hooked to where its recirculating?
If its that case you may still be burning them too if I Have it setup in my head as I think the way you have your grow setup......

 

[hurricane]

First you've heard of recirc coco? Well i've been reading about recirculating coco since gaiusmarius(the coco forum moderator for icmag) was growing 2400W w/coco slabs recirculating on overgrow(years ago, he inspired me to use coco). The feeding works off drip tubing, 3/4" ID main tube, and 1/4" OD feed tubes plummed into it. The plants sit in a 3x3 flood and drain tray with the two drain fittings in the center of the tray. One fitting has the feed tube coming up, it does a T, and then gets the small feeder lines plugged in. The other fitting has a drain, with a short bit of hose to reduce any waterfall noises, and a filter(pantyhose) rubber banded to the drain hose to catch any loose coco(another gaiusmarius suggestion). The reservoir itself has a 200GPH pump running 24/7 keeping it stirred. Theres a second pump for the feeding. The res sits directly underneath the flood tray(res is 3x3 as well)

The feeding schedule is not on a timer yet though, i was told for the first 3 weeks in coco to let them try out like soil pots to get strong roots. For the first 3 days of veg I was feeding them 4x per day on timer(per gaiusmarius coco slab grows), and 2 of those 4 feeds on the second day were ec 1.8, so its been almost 2 weeks since that over-feed. I noticed some leaves rolling up same day and pushed the nutes back to 0.9 w/ RO water, and researched what my meter was telling me The plants weren't looking super healthy with the 4xfeed schedule(limp, over watered) and thats about the same time i got the advice to let the pots dry out the first 3 weeks. Noticed immediate health improvements when i started letting em dry out.

for ph up/down i've been using the orange(down) and blue(up) pH from general hydroponics. My PBP soil bloom is fairly acidic too though(ph 5.0-5.1 when i first mix the res) so i was thinking about mixing a slightly weeker dose of nutes to use as a topoff to bring pH down instead of the acid. Havn't done this yet though.

For more reference heres the schedule i've kept a log of:

grow day date time
Veg -2 18-Jan 3pm Received Clones from BlueSky
Veg -2 18-Jan 4pm Put them under CMH @ 3'
Veg -1 18-Jan 11pm Move them to 5'
Veg -1 18-Jan 11pm Wet them with EC 0.7 tap water
Veg -1 19-Jan 1pm Moved them 3' from CMH
Veg -1 19-Jan 1pm Wet cubes with EC 0.8 of LK+RO
Veg 0 20-Jan 1am Planted cubes
Veg 0 20-Jan 1am Wet cubes and surrounding coco with EC 0.9 of LK & CalMag+
Veg 0 20-Jan 5pm Mixed res ~14G water 1 1/8 cup LK and 1/4 cup CalMag+. Final mix EC 0.9 pH 6.2, adjusted to 5.8
Veg 1 20-Jan 7:45pm Started 4x Feed Schedule
Veg 1 21-Jan 4pm Started 20/4 @ 4pm light off
Veg 1 21-Jan 11am Added somewhere arround 1/4 cup pbpsb to res to attain EC of 1.8
Veg 1-2 21-Jan Overfed EC 1.8 Jan 21 1:45pm and 7:45pm
Veg 2 22-Jan 1:45am Added RO to get EC to 0.9 before Jan 22 1:45am feeding
Veg 3 23-Jan 10am Plants looked fairly healthy although some leaf curl still exists.
Veg 4 23 Jan 8pm Turned off watering timer to let pots dry out.
Veg 7 26-Jan 10pm Pots getting closer to dry, another day and should be ready for water. 6G Rez mixed at 9ml/g pbpsb 2ml/g calmag+. EC 0.8
Flower 1 27-Jan 11pm Fed plants @10pm, took all 6 gallons next time at least 10gallons in res. Mixed new res at EC0.8 pH 5.8
Flower 6 1-Feb 11pm Fed plants EC1.0 pH6.3, return EC0.7 pH6.9. Added 6G to res, EC1.0 pH 5.1(will adjust before any feeding)

Also heres a construction shot showing the drippers, that blue tube has been replaced with a T junction though because the bend in it was causing too much difference is water between drippers.




EDIT: to stabilize the pH, should it also help to mix a little of my tap water with the RO to harden it up a little? My tap has an EC of 0.7, so to what ratio would i want to mix?


Hurricane

 

[hurricane]

Another question in regards to the pH. My reservoir climbs steadily, just sitting there being mixed for a few days, with no runoff or anything going into it. For example i mixed a res on the 27th, ph up'd to 5.8, then let it sit and mix untill needed on the 1st at pH 6.3. Res climbs .1-.2 or so a day when i check it. Could have been encouraged by having no lid, but i got one a few days ago so should be minimal evaporation now. The day i put the lid on there were some air bubbles clinging to the edge of the res, since i added the lid there are still a few but not many.

Hurricane

 

[hurricane]

Took some more pictures, this is as closeup as my camera seems to focus. I also chopped out 800x600 parts of the pic instead of letting the forum resize it. Hope we can figure this out, the pots feel like they will be ready for feed by lights on tomorrow, so i gotta figure out where i adjust the res to before feeding.









edit: now that i think about it though, i have to look around a bit to find leaves that look like this because there are only a few examples. Also i don't see and progress in browning since yesterday. Also re-croped pictures since it seems icmag is resizing pics to 600x450, not 800x600 like i thought. Get the closeup by getting origional resolution onto the web.


Hurricane

 

[MynameStitch]

a slightly weeker dose of nutes to use as a topoff to bring pH down instead of the acid. Havn't done this yet though.

Bingo! That is what you need to do, you should never add more nutrients to adjust pH up or down, always use pH adjusters that are stable to ensure your pH is getting stable the way you adjusted it.
Stuff like vinegar and lemon juice only is a temp and does not last long.

Yours you are using is the good stuff.
I see how you have it hooked up now, that is the way I thought it was hooked up as I thought it in my head.
Yes, this is the first time I heard of it. I do not grow in coco, but know a lot about it, just over looked it I guess when growing it like this.
I have seen a lot of weird grows in my time.....

Are you growing in a hydrohut?
If you want to yes you can go ahead and mix some tap water, will be good for the plants as it has micros in the water.
Your res, is it covered up by any chance?

Normally when pH rises your plants remove nutrients from the water... but since your plants are not sitting in the water in the res, if it's not covered up I would suggest doing so.

Yes, you not having a lid would lead to it being evaporated.
Always good to not have your nutrients exposed to light, always have a light leak proof lid on your res.

Like I said before the problem looks like it was from the over fed you had before, but I would still back down on the nutrients just a little bit until they fully recover and keep the pH adjusted which now you should not have any problems with that

 

[hurricane]

Greetings, thanks for the info stitch.

The res lid should be very light tight, got it from a friend who works at a plastics company. I just asked him for 2 pieces of specific size to have a lid and access hatch that wouldn't let light through. The lid he brought me is the same plastic(flat one side, bumped other, same color) as the res, just twice as thick. Got it all attached with gorilla tape and it appears light tight.

Going to take a few days to tell, but hopefully the pH will stay where its at between feeds. Lowered my res from 1.0 to 0.85 w/ some RO & tap water. Fed them today with ec 0.85 pH5.9 water today, runoff was ec0.7 pH6.9 just like last time.

I am growing in a hydrohut mini. Purchased in january, it seems i didn't get the bad room syndrome that some people get. I think they've been in there long enough to rule it out I'm much relieved since i found out after setting up the hut.

I'll use the pH adjusters exclusively from now on.

Hurricane

 

[MynameStitch]

Let me know how things go soon alright

Ya, you got lucky! Most peeps who bought them got the shit end of the deal

 

[mr freez]

neptune has a coco setup like yous using a 6x3 table and pbpro . you might want to check out his threads

 

[hurricane]

neptune has a coco setup like yous using a 6x3 table and pbpro . you might want to check out his threads

hmm, you didn't read my grow thread did you already done

Hurricane

 

[hurricane]

Well, been about 10 days, we are on to flower day 20 and the problem seems to have continued

When we left off i was feeding the plants at 0.85EC pH 5.9. Feeds ran the 6th and the 10th. Fed them ec 1.0 on the 12th and 14th, all pH 5.9-6.0

Crisping has continued, also i notice on some of the leaves starting at the tips seem to go from a full green to a very flat, lighter green. The pictures here try and show that.

Yesterday i flushed the plants with a mix of 18G RO water and 6G of my tap. pH'd down to 5.9(w/ what seemed like alot of acid), ec read at 0.2. At the begining of the flush i was reading EC 0.8 ph6.8. At the end of the flush i was getting EC 0.35 pH7.1. I dont understand how the pH went up by flushing with water at 5.9 but it did. Since they seem to still be getting nute burn i didn't feed them after the flush, just let em use the plain water for 24h. Today i mixed up a new res with RO and a little tap to get EC0.1. Calmag+ and PBPSB to bring up to ec0.6. pH reads 6.0. Fed them that today, and they will get fed with that again in 2 days.


The pH is really bothering me, i dont understand how it can be so close to 7. Anyways here are the pics lets see if we can figure this thing out. The leaves showing issues are both in the top and middle, not really in the bottom but a little bit. Also some of the top leaves are clawing and showing more of a golden color than green.

The plants are done with stretch and starting on bud production, i'd really like them to be happy for this part.





Hurricane

 

[MynameStitch]

Sttretch out the feedings a little more, don't have them so close or cut back on the amounts you use if you want to continue feeding the same time frame.