@hempy
The Haze Whisperer
What coding all Nevil did was number his plants as most do, that's why you had NH21 and NH36.
Other examples are 5HzA(2) the different 5HzC (1) was used in SSH and (122) was used in the Mango Haze.
Outback Haze #8 x Silk Haze S
- Thread starter Thread starter Stoneguru
- Start date Start date
What coding all Nevil did was number his plants as most do, that's why you had NH21 and NH36.
Other examples are 5HzA(2) the different 5HzC (1) was used in SSH and (122) was used in the Mango Haze.
Stoneguru
Well-known member
I was more referring to how your Thai was grown and trained. You have mentioned using what I would consider excessively long dark cycles to finish flowers in the past. I wasn't aware that it didn't apply to this one. Thanks for clarifying.
I understand height limitations or that some plants can't support their weight.
That said. It is common knowledge that training plants with foxtail traits sideways or otherwise does not give accurate representation of the overall morphology and traits of the plant relative to a normal growth situation.
The best representation of overall structure, frame, proportion and flower formation, node spacing etc. remains with the smaller plants of your Thai in the posts above. At least for the purposes of identification for people growing out these genetics from seed.
Dwight has grown out more Outback than anyone so I ultimately defer to him on most everything with the outback line. I know you don't have any experience with NH21 or 36, but you have a lot of experience with your thai so I appreciate cross referencing it with you. Particularly on the Thai itself
@HEMPY you know I put more stock in traits then I do stories. Stories can't be selected and bred. I am just trying to break down the traits of these parents which has not yet been done.
By itemizing and comparing the traits of each parent and progeny (while accounting for growth conditions) I can determine the dominant traits and interrelationships of them.
Most of the useful information from the pictures currently available has been gone over.
Deductive reasoning. By understanding what your Thai is and is not as well as the other plants anyone working with these genetics in the future will be able to select toward or away and accurately identifying how they are doing this.
Overall Dwights selections lean heavily into Nevil's selections of NH21 and NH36.
No offence to you at all, but I am selecting toward Nevil's Haze. I have at least as much experience as you with that and it's just my personal preference
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Stoneguru
Well-known member
That is not what I was referring to.
@hempy
The Haze Whisperer
As I said, those were not grown with extended dark periods, I only use that for specific reasons and the Thais don't like a shorter light cycle in flower, they absolutely hate it.
You train the plant sideways when you start to run out of headspace, I don't know of many indoor growers with more than 8 feet of headspace. Running them up and then sideways has zero effect on the look of the flower or its quality.
Some outdoor growers grow sativas this way, reduces the odds of them being seen or smashed up in a storm. It also has a few other advantages too.
What I see in the Outback Haze is Heavy leaning HzC type flowers.
Stoneguru
Well-known member
I understand why plants are grown sideways and trained. I generally train them during stretch so that it's an even canopy of consistent flowers. Every tech and situation is different and It has no effect on quality.
However, it can make identification more difficult which is the purpose of this and most of my threads.
Any plant that is manipulated in such a way will produce more auxin and stretch the flower in irregular ways from the bottom to compensate for gravity and toward the light
More pictures and scenarios help to distinguish the traits. This process help people growing these genetics in the future to identify phenotypes and parental influence. Plant identification.
Dwight sent a picture of your Tia I had not seen before. It does show the overall bouquet and flower from a different perspective.
If it were larger and grown upright it stands to reason that it would closely resemble. Ojds Outback #2. Therefore, a higher percentage of your Thai type may be found in the progeny.
Hempy, I appreciate your posts on the history and references. I don't keep track of that as well. My attention is more focused on the traits and details of the plants for selection and identification.
Regarding being a haze C type vs A. What specifically makes Outback #8 haze C vs A. How do you determine one over the other?
The #8 above does have the effervescence and camphor/menthols associated Haze C type, but is also somewhere in the darker notes Nevil described of Haze A. This comes through between Dr pepper and Rootbeer, but still haze camphor type over liver and savory associated with male A.
What are your thoughts?
This is a picture of Outback #9. With a smoke report. It does seem to favor what I associate with C more that Outback #8
Thread 'Out-back haze #9 (nevil, the seed bank, mr nice)' https://www.icmag.com/threads/out-back-haze-9-nevil-the-seed-bank-mr-nice.18130047/
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LostSoulsofHaze
Active member
Dude it clicked your all Dj9
Stoneguru
Well-known member
Sacred Geometry in Cannabis
The Fibonacci sequence, golden ratio or sacred Geometry is found through all natural systems and the expansion of the galaxy itself. Vortex is one of the most intriguing displays of this sequence.
The golden ratio is the most organized sequence for life to exist within and expand throughout. This is as true for the organization and spacing of calyx's as it is for sunflower seeds, pine cones, sedums or roses.
While the Fibonacci sequence and proportion is likely found in the proportion of all cannabis plants, it is rare to find it with fractal redundance throughout the micro and macro of the whole plant.
I have found Nevil's selections to display Fibonacci sequence more that most. It is a natural phenomenon and we find it in art throughout history. We are drawn to it.
Dwight's Diotte's selections of Outback haze are among the finest examples of Sacred Geometry I have come across They exhibit the Fibonacci sequence as vortex from the Microcosm of the Calyx/bract sequence itself, to the helical spiral of every branch and flower through to the macrocosm of the entire plant.
Examining the collages above. It is relatively easy to identify this vortex and fractal relationship in the foxtail and then the whole flower, and then the spacing and sequence of every node on every branch as it twists.
However, it took me a little bit to identify the Sacred Geometry of the whole plant. Without any training or manipulation Outback #8 appears as a 1:1 ball regarding width and Height.
This is a divergence from the more common exponential sequence of a cone. Then it hit me! I am considering it from the more familiar side view! (Also depicted above)
Just like life. A change in perspective pulls us from the limits and confines of a faceted and limited view to awareness of prism only to find vortex and sacred Geometry again.
I haven't been able to photograph it properly, but the answer is from above! This plant is organizing vortex energy and optimizing growth to harness energy itself, not just my perspective.
The branches stretch further in slightly offset symmetry, and incrementally less in near perfect mathematical proportion within the sphere. However, each side branching set is offset in length to create the vortex of sacred geometry from above and multiple perspectives at once including the side. This is in concern with the helical node spacing. The fractal micro/macrocosm throughout the plant.
It turns out there are even more helical and vortex arrangements that can be observed within the sphere than what is commonly found in cone shapes plants.
So why does this matter? It matters for the same reason as all life, but also has very practical implications.
The idea that 'wild' or irregular fenotrigo traits are beneficial is premised around the idea of allowing full trichome development relative to vegetative matter. An overly dense flower can negatively impact this metabolic development.
Dwight's Outback selections are not dense by any means nor are they loose and wild. They are the perfect optimized consistency. The result of the same sacred geometry found throughout our galaxy allows for complete trichome development throughout the flower and whole plant without the wasted space or energy
All of the associated benefit of the fenitrigo traits while still having the composure of buds
The organization of sacred geometry as vortex in fractal redundance throughout this plant optimizes trichome development, light penetration, flower formation, yield and air circulation.
Nevil spent a lifetime making these selections and I have no way of knowing if he selected and was aware of all of what he selected for or if the universe was just aligned to pass this remarkable final work through him and into the stewardship of his friend.
In any event. Haze from any perspective is vortex energy, a change in perspective into seeing things in new and inspiring ways and the interrelationship of it all through space and time.
The Fibonacci sequence, golden ratio or sacred Geometry is found through all natural systems and the expansion of the galaxy itself. Vortex is one of the most intriguing displays of this sequence.
The golden ratio is the most organized sequence for life to exist within and expand throughout. This is as true for the organization and spacing of calyx's as it is for sunflower seeds, pine cones, sedums or roses.
While the Fibonacci sequence and proportion is likely found in the proportion of all cannabis plants, it is rare to find it with fractal redundance throughout the micro and macro of the whole plant.
I have found Nevil's selections to display Fibonacci sequence more that most. It is a natural phenomenon and we find it in art throughout history. We are drawn to it.
Dwight's Diotte's selections of Outback haze are among the finest examples of Sacred Geometry I have come across They exhibit the Fibonacci sequence as vortex from the Microcosm of the Calyx/bract sequence itself, to the helical spiral of every branch and flower through to the macrocosm of the entire plant.
Examining the collages above. It is relatively easy to identify this vortex and fractal relationship in the foxtail and then the whole flower, and then the spacing and sequence of every node on every branch as it twists.
However, it took me a little bit to identify the Sacred Geometry of the whole plant. Without any training or manipulation Outback #8 appears as a 1:1 ball regarding width and Height.
This is a divergence from the more common exponential sequence of a cone. Then it hit me! I am considering it from the more familiar side view! (Also depicted above)
Just like life. A change in perspective pulls us from the limits and confines of a faceted and limited view to awareness of prism only to find vortex and sacred Geometry again.
I haven't been able to photograph it properly, but the answer is from above! This plant is organizing vortex energy and optimizing growth to harness energy itself, not just my perspective.
The branches stretch further in slightly offset symmetry, and incrementally less in near perfect mathematical proportion within the sphere. However, each side branching set is offset in length to create the vortex of sacred geometry from above and multiple perspectives at once including the side. This is in concern with the helical node spacing. The fractal micro/macrocosm throughout the plant.
It turns out there are even more helical and vortex arrangements that can be observed within the sphere than what is commonly found in cone shapes plants.
So why does this matter? It matters for the same reason as all life, but also has very practical implications.
The idea that 'wild' or irregular fenotrigo traits are beneficial is premised around the idea of allowing full trichome development relative to vegetative matter. An overly dense flower can negatively impact this metabolic development.
Dwight's Outback selections are not dense by any means nor are they loose and wild. They are the perfect optimized consistency. The result of the same sacred geometry found throughout our galaxy allows for complete trichome development throughout the flower and whole plant without the wasted space or energy
All of the associated benefit of the fenitrigo traits while still having the composure of buds
The organization of sacred geometry as vortex in fractal redundance throughout this plant optimizes trichome development, light penetration, flower formation, yield and air circulation.
Nevil spent a lifetime making these selections and I have no way of knowing if he selected and was aware of all of what he selected for or if the universe was just aligned to pass this remarkable final work through him and into the stewardship of his friend.
In any event. Haze from any perspective is vortex energy, a change in perspective into seeing things in new and inspiring ways and the interrelationship of it all through space and time.
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@hempy
The Haze Whisperer
The look of the plant, not the smells, is what tells me what side of the ancestry it's aligned to.
This looks like your typical Colombian type flower and nothing like the small airy flower the first female Haze had and the type of flower the HzA male off spring produced.
That is exacly what I am sharing when I post Nevil like me belived Haze was a Thai / Colombian and I knew that the first time I smoked it. You can see it in the plants but the two main highs tell the story.
Stoneguru
Well-known member
All traits have a recombinant potential. Both simplicity and complexity have their detrimental effects.
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Stoneguru
Well-known member
@HEMPY I like and appreciate the perspective of sliding scales between 2 points. It has very useful implications and I find myself practicing it at times with benefits in some scenarios.
On the hand a straight line is a mathematical construct or metaphor rather than a physical reality.
Straight lines are not found in the natural world because they are devoid of the very nuance found through chaos and complexity by which the universe is energized.
Consider. Whatsoever we achieve then we can no longer grasp. This theory or philosophy also has practical implications.
Complexity science was considered foolish by the scientific community as a whole. A status quo perspective that all the universe could be broken down and quantified by the sum of its parts. The scientific method.
However, confined methodologies could not resolve the infinite complexities of what could be still observed as reality. Through quantum computing complex systems can be understood in new ways through complexity theory.
Not the limits of a beginning and end. Not the achievement of a result, but channeling of potentials through embracing complexity. Ricochet and rebound the variable.
Grasping tight..the humor of the universe a curve bending back into the fold and Male C morphology becomes male A effect and visa verse resulting in the emergence of the variable yet within will them begin.
Still. Curiousity. The swan dive into holistic system dynamics the play off the variables while practicing the methodology and discipline together may be the way the have what we seek embrace us and grasp nothing....male C it is. But the effect is what you describe as Thai. The effect is similar to the appearance.
I don't say this to discount what you're saying. I say it to account for everything
View attachment 19125518
One further thought on this. Male A and Male C were what existed through chance before 10,000 plants, countless creations and the Fgen of generations selecting and building the parents. The convergence of art, philosophy and science over Nevil's relentless ~35 year journey with haze.
Maybe Nevil reached into the potential rather than the limit and influenced haze beyond either. A possibility to consider anyway.
@hempy
The Haze Whisperer
I look at things in a simplistic way, I don't overthink something that does not need to be.
A seed will grow out and express one of the parents or a mix of both, and when you grow a line for many years you get to know that line, and you know what to expect.
Take Haze, all the Haze lines be it the NH the OHaze or the Posi Haze when grown out show two main types, these days some have been bred steered to a set side. Regardless, you see the ancestral or Archetypes still pop up, be it in less numbers.
I know from talking with Nevil what each side of his Haze lines were and what the offspring they produced grew like. But even before knowing Nevil I saw the Thai and the Colombian sides and more importantly could pick it up in the smoke.
All we are doing is looking and selecting for the types we each like, no side of the Haze is better it's about personal likes.
A seed will grow out and express one of the parents or a mix of both, and when you grow a line for many years you get to know that line, and you know what to expect.
Take Haze, all the Haze lines be it the NH the OHaze or the Posi Haze when grown out show two main types, these days some have been bred steered to a set side. Regardless, you see the ancestral or Archetypes still pop up, be it in less numbers.
I know from talking with Nevil what each side of his Haze lines were and what the offspring they produced grew like. But even before knowing Nevil I saw the Thai and the Colombian sides and more importantly could pick it up in the smoke.
All we are doing is looking and selecting for the types we each like, no side of the Haze is better it's about personal likes.
Stoneguru
Well-known member
@HEMPY I comprehend dichotomous thinking and can think of scenarios where it is useful, but honestly... I cannot relate any more than you can mine.
Our life experiences, world view and personality type just don't process the same.
All advancement, every prototype or progress is marked with a degree of complexity before it becomes simplified. An alphabet made up of 2 letters is always going to have a simple sound and if it helps you in your process that's all that matters.
If it's more relatable I can go with that. If cannabis pollen comes in contact with a cannabis stamen a Cannabis seed will fall out. By taking this approach I am correct almost every time, but also risk nothing to discover more.
For the purposes of this thread I think it is helpful to have both of our philosophies on breeding presented because it gives others the opportunity to develop and challenge themselves about complexity vs simplicity. Each has their associated detrimental and beneficial qualities.
Our life experiences, world view and personality type just don't process the same.
All advancement, every prototype or progress is marked with a degree of complexity before it becomes simplified. An alphabet made up of 2 letters is always going to have a simple sound and if it helps you in your process that's all that matters.
If it's more relatable I can go with that. If cannabis pollen comes in contact with a cannabis stamen a Cannabis seed will fall out. By taking this approach I am correct almost every time, but also risk nothing to discover more.
For the purposes of this thread I think it is helpful to have both of our philosophies on breeding presented because it gives others the opportunity to develop and challenge themselves about complexity vs simplicity. Each has their associated detrimental and beneficial qualities.
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Stoneguru
Well-known member
Outback Haze #8 x Silk S
Outback Silk #11
Week 8. Camphor and Frankincense and the most prominent notes. Dwight says a hazy Dr pepper or root beer may set in.
There are 8 Outback Silk in these testers. I think I will be able to cull 1. They are special.
This is one of the testers in veg. Ready to flip in a week or 2.
Dwight is also running testers. We'll see how they all do in the smoke test and then take his lead on what's next for this line.
He also sent some pictures of his Outback Haze #9. Just getting started
Outback Silk #11
Week 8. Camphor and Frankincense and the most prominent notes. Dwight says a hazy Dr pepper or root beer may set in.
There are 8 Outback Silk in these testers. I think I will be able to cull 1. They are special.
This is one of the testers in veg. Ready to flip in a week or 2.
Dwight is also running testers. We'll see how they all do in the smoke test and then take his lead on what's next for this line.
He also sent some pictures of his Outback Haze #9. Just getting started
Stoneguru
Well-known member
The Outback Silk #3 isn't the prettiest, but it is the most powerful and refined Eucalyptus I have ever come across in Cannabis. Once it clears all sense of smell there is a pearl of Lemon that is more lemon than lemon.
The context is compared to other hazes and South east Asian I have run such a Muang Xia, Loas, Luang Prabang, TLT Viet, Viet 164 Zang, Lie Hahn, Deep river Haze, HOA Bac and Dalat.
The second for brightest top notes would be a toss up between Snowhighs selection of Dalat and Zang though I don't know how common it is in either.
I am planning to reverse the Dalat onto this cut. The Idea of the cross would be to get a full assortment of profiles within a tight pattern of citrus and eucalyptus to further select from.
The progeny should be all variations of scream queens and palate cleaners.
This cross has a potential for predictable additive traits and breeding.
The context is compared to other hazes and South east Asian I have run such a Muang Xia, Loas, Luang Prabang, TLT Viet, Viet 164 Zang, Lie Hahn, Deep river Haze, HOA Bac and Dalat.
The second for brightest top notes would be a toss up between Snowhighs selection of Dalat and Zang though I don't know how common it is in either.
I am planning to reverse the Dalat onto this cut. The Idea of the cross would be to get a full assortment of profiles within a tight pattern of citrus and eucalyptus to further select from.
The progeny should be all variations of scream queens and palate cleaners.
This cross has a potential for predictable additive traits and breeding.
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Stoneguru
Well-known member
The Silk S is the other part of the Outback Silk. It is among the highest ocimene dominant hazes recorded. Multiple times higher than the Piffs, Bandaid and A5 numbers that I have seen. Zero CBD and 2.8% total CBG
Vaporized frankincense on the burn. The effect is my absolute favorite. It sneaks up into the high vibration. Clean pure energy. Not coming from the outside, but tapping into something inside already there. That might be why it is a surprise. Then it is wave after wave of energy bouncing between crown and solar plex. No crash.
There is nothing I would change about the effect. Only add variations of profiles of possible.
If I were to describe it. This is a repeated out and back process between NL5 haze selections and Nigerian Silk.
Haze is my favorite high, but some have an edgy come on like DMT. In can induce anxiety that I don't care for personally...a hazing to go through to reach the quality high. It's as if the Nigerian adds an elation or excitement that compels to playfully jump right past it into the high.
Aside from that it loads that progeny with a whole array of signature mutations.
I am always looking for different profiles to her, but there is not much else I would change. It's my go to effect no matter what is around for over 3 years now.
Vaporized frankincense on the burn. The effect is my absolute favorite. It sneaks up into the high vibration. Clean pure energy. Not coming from the outside, but tapping into something inside already there. That might be why it is a surprise. Then it is wave after wave of energy bouncing between crown and solar plex. No crash.
There is nothing I would change about the effect. Only add variations of profiles of possible.
If I were to describe it. This is a repeated out and back process between NL5 haze selections and Nigerian Silk.
Haze is my favorite high, but some have an edgy come on like DMT. In can induce anxiety that I don't care for personally...a hazing to go through to reach the quality high. It's as if the Nigerian adds an elation or excitement that compels to playfully jump right past it into the high.
Aside from that it loads that progeny with a whole array of signature mutations.
I am always looking for different profiles to her, but there is not much else I would change. It's my go to effect no matter what is around for over 3 years now.
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Stoneguru
Well-known member
The Outback Silk #3 permeates the room with Eucalyptus. Extremely high and refined isolation terpenes on this. I pollinated it with some JJ's Nigerian F1.
JJ's Nigerian used an original 5haze male which dominates the cross. They have a profile very similar to the original 5haze. That gassy fuel. Not like modern gas, but putting a nose on a good one sure lets you know where they all came from.
The cross is a very Nevil's Haze selected by him and then worked back to 5hazeC preserves by JJ in his F1.
Profile wise is has the potential to come together and blow the roof off with Eucalyptus pine and gas leaning heavy into haze.
JJ's Nigerian used an original 5haze male which dominates the cross. They have a profile very similar to the original 5haze. That gassy fuel. Not like modern gas, but putting a nose on a good one sure lets you know where they all came from.
The cross is a very Nevil's Haze selected by him and then worked back to 5hazeC preserves by JJ in his F1.
Profile wise is has the potential to come together and blow the roof off with Eucalyptus pine and gas leaning heavy into haze.
