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Organics and Ph.
- Thread starter swampdank
- Start date
i see this is a hot subject. so, i guess im not missing anything. i have always gardened organically and never paid much attention to ph. hell i never even really measure anything. kind of eyeball ammendments and feel the soil to see if its soft and nice.
usually people go back and forth with this subjectand it gets confusing.
this is why i titled the thread "organics and ph" not pot growing and ph or do you measure ph. i have had the best tasting cucumbers 18 inches long and sweet as can be. same with tomatoes, melons, peppers, greens, etc. not to mention bud. but if there is something i am missing i need to know.
some folks get really defensive on the subject, as with other things. but, this thread was meant to clear things up. i needed clarification, as did other members fom other forums.
thanks to everybody who made an actual contribution to this thread and making a statement for growers for years to come. thats what its all about.
on that note, hope everybody had a stony 4/20. i did.
usually people go back and forth with this subjectand it gets confusing.
this is why i titled the thread "organics and ph" not pot growing and ph or do you measure ph. i have had the best tasting cucumbers 18 inches long and sweet as can be. same with tomatoes, melons, peppers, greens, etc. not to mention bud. but if there is something i am missing i need to know.
some folks get really defensive on the subject, as with other things. but, this thread was meant to clear things up. i needed clarification, as did other members fom other forums.
thanks to everybody who made an actual contribution to this thread and making a statement for growers for years to come. thats what its all about.
on that note, hope everybody had a stony 4/20. i did.
I don't know man, "faith growers" comes to mind. You only care to think that what your doing seems to be right because you followed directions & plenty of folks will back you up every Sunday. Folks dig your herb. Wtf we're doing is a key factor. The bottom line is, you're not sure without a meter & one day you'll come to grips with reality & look for improvement. You'll look to a pH meter with a couple of reference points- mark this, it's a fact. Until you go there you're not doing as well as you could. I won't say I told you so but I did. love,
tom
I don't know. I'm a mountain biker and to me, approaching growing like that is like a person who monitors heart rate, then charts and graphs it when they get home... buys all the latest whizz-bang nutritional supplements and calculates their diet like they're in the Olympics. I've been there, done that... and I won't knock it, but it ain't my style of mountain biking anymore.
I'm a soul rider. We ride until we puke and our eyes pop out of our heads. But I ride for fun. I ride to commune with Nature. I ride to spend time with my bros. These days, training and eating like I'm a pro athlete would only take away from the enjoyment rather than add to it.
I'm the same way with playing my music... music theory is interesting, but at the end of the day, I play for fun and for feeling.
My gardening is the same way. If it's worth it to you to become a scientist and treat your garden like a laboratory to gain 10% in yield or 2% in potency, that's wonderful. I'll ride the coattails of your experimentation and thank you kindly for what I learn from it... But for me, the buds I grow using old-school agricultural wisdom and a whole lotta Love... they suit my purposes just fine. If I fretted and fussed over pH meters and ppms and teaspoons and lumens... it wouldn't be any fun anymore. It would take the soul right out of it for me.
I'm not trying to create Frankenplants. I'm just gardening, getting my hands dirty.
Dig
I'm a soul rider. We ride until we puke and our eyes pop out of our heads. But I ride for fun. I ride to commune with Nature. I ride to spend time with my bros. These days, training and eating like I'm a pro athlete would only take away from the enjoyment rather than add to it.
I'm the same way with playing my music... music theory is interesting, but at the end of the day, I play for fun and for feeling.
My gardening is the same way. If it's worth it to you to become a scientist and treat your garden like a laboratory to gain 10% in yield or 2% in potency, that's wonderful. I'll ride the coattails of your experimentation and thank you kindly for what I learn from it... But for me, the buds I grow using old-school agricultural wisdom and a whole lotta Love... they suit my purposes just fine. If I fretted and fussed over pH meters and ppms and teaspoons and lumens... it wouldn't be any fun anymore. It would take the soul right out of it for me.
I'm not trying to create Frankenplants. I'm just gardening, getting my hands dirty.
Dig
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Dignan said:
If you had truly been there & done that, I can't believe you'd lay that down Dignan. One day we'll all see room for improvement through more control, & there's nothing un-natural about that. Do you think if the ancient taoists had pH meters they'd shun them? Shit no, they'd have used them plenty to locate exact pools to meditate at the bottom of, lol. You can go there if you like, but please accept it for what it is, & it ain't got nothing to do with being closer to nature amigo. You're killing off beneficial life in the soil for no good reason that I can see, a whole lotta death.
I'd be willing to bet that the vast majority of folks that have "been there" & tossed their meters away were working with less than $100 meters (read cheap ass pens & laughable probes) & they got the hell out of the fire before they burned the house down with their bogus ass readings that they were over-correcting for. Yeah, I've been there too. You can bring Elain, or Amigo in here & I'll recognize their wrap, it doesn't matter. The bottom line is this: Cannabis grows best when your paying attention & giving it what it wants @ the proper pH, period. If you don't wanna do it, fine, but please don't think anybody with half a brain will swallow the load of "it doesn't matter" etc "just add lime & castings", that's bs man, & it always will be.
Best Regards,
Tom
I'd be willing to bet that the vast majority of folks that have "been there" & tossed their meters away were working with less than $100 meters (read cheap ass pens & laughable probes) & they got the hell out of the fire before they burned the house down with their bogus ass readings that they were over-correcting for. Yeah, I've been there too. You can bring Elain, or Amigo in here & I'll recognize their wrap, it doesn't matter. The bottom line is this: Cannabis grows best when your paying attention & giving it what it wants @ the proper pH, period. If you don't wanna do it, fine, but please don't think anybody with half a brain will swallow the load of "it doesn't matter" etc "just add lime & castings", that's bs man, & it always will be.
Best Regards,
Tom
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I went to Google.com and typed in the following search terms ph microherd problemsTomHill said:
The overwhelming links from that search on the first 2 pages were to cannabis growing forums like this one, PlanetGanga, et al. I decided to watch my dog scratch his balls rather than continue through the other links.
And it was about what I suspected - Stoner Joe talking to Cash-Crop Ken about how important PH is because [fill in the blank] and all the gyrations that they make in checking oh so many things with their nifty PH meters. It was pretty moving all in all.
I stopped reading for a bit and had a good hard cry.
That's all I need to see. Kewl topic though - kinda like listening to a score of Baptist ministers arguing about how many angels can sit on the head of a pin. Interesting discussion but it too grows tiresome.
Link me to a peer-review study on the impact of slight PH variances in plant growth/health and I'm ready to read and evaluate. Otherwise it's little more than reviewing Stoner Joe's upcoming book - The Stuff I Knowed About the Stuff I Growed which should be appearing at grow stores across North America.
Hopefully Stoner Joe will include a special chapter on the 'stretch issue' that arises when using kelp meal - that's always a real hoot too!
Wee!
CC
rckymtnthuglife
Member
I have 5 pH meters in my home right now...talk about embarrassing. They were the cause of more fucked up crops than I'd care to admit.
I found LC's mix.
I don't buy weed no more.
I found LC's mix.
I don't buy weed no more.
I did.TomHill said:
Thanks for confirming what others have been trying to say (Suby, et al). One thing about posting links is that it's definitely helpful.
It's equally helpful for the one making those links to read, study and review the data contained in the links that they're using to buttress their argument/position.
Thanks again for the new search terms! At least you got me off of the insipid opinions of High Time readers/growers. That was certainly helpful.
Cheers!
BTW - could I interest you in a really neat stitched-leather carrying case for your PH meter? I seriously think that there's a business brewing here!
CC
rckymtnthuglife
Member
To measure how pH affects soil microbes, Chaney and University of Maryland
colleagues Shengchun Wang and Scott Angle adjusted two smelter-contaminated, high-metals soils to a range of pH levels, grew T. caerulescens in them for six months, and then analyzed soil microbe populations and activity. Then they adjusted the soils back to normal pH levels and incubated them for six months, to see if previously observed reductions in microbes persisted under normal soil management.
The scientists found that if the soil pH was adjusted no lower than that needed to maximize annual cadmium removal—a pH of about 5.8 to 6—there was no lasting adverse effect on soil microbes. And in both test soils, T. caerulescens tended to protect the soil microbes, compared to unplanted soils at the same pH levels.
I did your search too this is the first article I came upon. I had never even though about it Tom...Thanks for the info!
Rcky
colleagues Shengchun Wang and Scott Angle adjusted two smelter-contaminated, high-metals soils to a range of pH levels, grew T. caerulescens in them for six months, and then analyzed soil microbe populations and activity. Then they adjusted the soils back to normal pH levels and incubated them for six months, to see if previously observed reductions in microbes persisted under normal soil management.
The scientists found that if the soil pH was adjusted no lower than that needed to maximize annual cadmium removal—a pH of about 5.8 to 6—there was no lasting adverse effect on soil microbes. And in both test soils, T. caerulescens tended to protect the soil microbes, compared to unplanted soils at the same pH levels.
I did your search too this is the first article I came upon. I had never even though about it Tom...Thanks for the info!
Rcky
Keep looking guys (or try growing it) & you WILL find that there is a tolerable range that is MUCH narrower than this pH 4-9 that -according to some around here- is "no problem". Lol, if they'd retract that to be a little more friggen realistic- say- 5.8-7.5, I wouldn't be here hastling you guys, but there has been no retraction, only poor advice that requires a leap of faith & has the capacity to bring certain death. Bums me out man. You know what, there are several plant foods out there that have the capacity to run around pH 4, use them & kill soil & plants man, simple as that, the shit does matter big time & just because some are getting away with it don't mean it's alright, or not harmful, or decent advice.
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Benefits of PH Monitoring in Organic Grows
Benefits of PH Monitoring in Organic Grows
One thing that is being overlooked in this discussion about the 'need' to flip-out the ol' PH meter in organic growing and farming and that is that this could actually prove to be the 'final solution' to end world hunger once and for all.
Seriously - think about it for a minute. If organic farmers spent the amount of time, per plant, as a grower filled with 'knowledge' garnered from books written by the likes of George/Jorge Cervantes, High Time Magazine articles, and of course 'in the field information' from a 'really good grower' dispensing advice on how to improve yields at web sites, etc. then the price of all food commodities would sky-rocket meaning that the culling of the human herd would be in full swing.
A lot of agriculture land could be put into reserve because there just wouldn't be all that many consumers left with the ability to pay $250.00 for a pound of strawberries. Imagine what the cost of raspberries would run? Wee!
And then there could be a burgeoning business of monitoring the PH of the urine from the animals used to produce protein. As in "Hey, Pa! Bessie is pissin' a 7.3! What's we agonna do?"
That should push the price of a T-Bone steak up to about $295.00 per lb. - unaged.
And then of course there would obviously be the need to monitor the fecal paste dropped in and around poultry coops/sheds to see how Leghorn Foghorn is doing each and every day. Chicken McNuggets will see a price increase resulting a single 'McNugget' costing $15.00 or so.
And people think that dealing with diabetes and blood-sugar levels are a bitch?
CC
Benefits of PH Monitoring in Organic Grows
One thing that is being overlooked in this discussion about the 'need' to flip-out the ol' PH meter in organic growing and farming and that is that this could actually prove to be the 'final solution' to end world hunger once and for all.
Seriously - think about it for a minute. If organic farmers spent the amount of time, per plant, as a grower filled with 'knowledge' garnered from books written by the likes of George/Jorge Cervantes, High Time Magazine articles, and of course 'in the field information' from a 'really good grower' dispensing advice on how to improve yields at web sites, etc. then the price of all food commodities would sky-rocket meaning that the culling of the human herd would be in full swing.
A lot of agriculture land could be put into reserve because there just wouldn't be all that many consumers left with the ability to pay $250.00 for a pound of strawberries. Imagine what the cost of raspberries would run? Wee!
And then there could be a burgeoning business of monitoring the PH of the urine from the animals used to produce protein. As in "Hey, Pa! Bessie is pissin' a 7.3! What's we agonna do?"
That should push the price of a T-Bone steak up to about $295.00 per lb. - unaged.
And then of course there would obviously be the need to monitor the fecal paste dropped in and around poultry coops/sheds to see how Leghorn Foghorn is doing each and every day. Chicken McNuggets will see a price increase resulting a single 'McNugget' costing $15.00 or so.
And people think that dealing with diabetes and blood-sugar levels are a bitch?
CC
I don't mind the philosophy, & I would never mind you telling folks what has worked for you. But start saying "toss this" & "you don't need that" for no other reason that I can see other than you've not learned to properly take advantage of the tools, well, then the jig is up man, starts to stink a bit much. If anybody here thinks that pH doesn't matter, or they cannot improve their grow by monitoring pH, then they are without exception in denial, & full of shit.With love,
Tom
I've never seen a PH meter sold at a farm store. For that matter I've never seen one at the several wholesale nursery warehouses which sell absolutely anything you can imagine and if they don't have it they will source if for you.
Where I have seen PH meters are in 'grow stores' where it's a quick sale and toss in a bottle of "PH Up" and a bottle of "PH Down" and you've got Stoner Joe's $400.00 and he's full of fear about a 'nutrient lock-out' and so his run on the treadmill begins. It runs from his garden site to the grow store and back again.
When I take a sample of soil into an agricultural testing facility (private and the one over at the state university) they take my sample and in a few days i have an analysis of the microbes in our soil as well as other data. I've never, ever had a lab or a farm extension agent ask me about our water's PH - never.
And our 'farm' is finally organically certified by one of the strictest certification agencies in the country - Oregon Tilth. Hopefully those beating the boards about PH metering will understand that out there in the real world of organic farming there are a number of things to concerned about and water is certainly one of those concerns. Like in having enough to pull off a harvest as an example - basic stuff like that.
YMMV
CC
Where I have seen PH meters are in 'grow stores' where it's a quick sale and toss in a bottle of "PH Up" and a bottle of "PH Down" and you've got Stoner Joe's $400.00 and he's full of fear about a 'nutrient lock-out' and so his run on the treadmill begins. It runs from his garden site to the grow store and back again.
When I take a sample of soil into an agricultural testing facility (private and the one over at the state university) they take my sample and in a few days i have an analysis of the microbes in our soil as well as other data. I've never, ever had a lab or a farm extension agent ask me about our water's PH - never.
And our 'farm' is finally organically certified by one of the strictest certification agencies in the country - Oregon Tilth. Hopefully those beating the boards about PH metering will understand that out there in the real world of organic farming there are a number of things to concerned about and water is certainly one of those concerns. Like in having enough to pull off a harvest as an example - basic stuff like that.
YMMV
CC
rckymtnthuglife
Member
TomHill said:
My guess is MOST of us who don't use pH meters and grow organically will have a SOIL pH between 5.8-7.5.
This doesn't mean we can't fertilize once a week with something with a pH of 4.4 or something like that, because the soil will adjust the pH itself. A properly mix soil that is.
I always wet and allow plain water to soak into my soil, I'll dump a quart of tea with an unknown pH on each plant...then continue to water with r/o or rain water till I see the slightest amount of runoff.
Works for me!
