Organics and Ph.

[Sam Slambam]

I'd like to just say something to anyone out there reading this thread like I have been..... ( which is to say, beginning to end, and back again a few times), .......

I am still a greenhorn, with only 3 indoor harvest under his belt. Started off in MSM and honestly had some decent results but never anything remotely like I see the likes of people pulling off in these threads here in the organics section. Last time around I used straight FFOF cut with 30% perlite and biobizz nutes. Similar results, loads of hermies towards the end, ( at least on my seemingly touchy mountain jams), mediocre smell and size...

I thought about it as critically as I could in the hopes of finding a common flaw in my methods.

Seemed to me it was that I was always PH balancing the feed water. With hydro uppers and downers and I never added any lime at all. I think all kinds of things were going wrong and blocking uptakes and killing off the microherd. Like most new growers I always assumed it was b/c they weren't getting enough ferts.


Well I now believe it was because I was doing more damage by adding Up and Down to achieve a perfect 6.5 than I was any good.

I say this because I am now in a mix very similar to the LC#1 but in place of the Coir or Peat I used a bag and a half of FFOF. I've been monitoring the PH but not adjusting it. I just need to ween myself off the teet that is PH adjusted feed water I suppose because I can honestly say that I've never had such fantastic results. My girls look healthy and green and strong. I was almost ready to throw in the towel too!


Im only about two weeks into Veg so perhaps I should quit while Im ahead here and not risk jinxing it. However, IF things stay the course I think I'm in for the best chop I've ever had.


And I owe it to all you people out there, I mean that as humbly as possible.


Thanks to everybody who keeps this thread great and keeps the ball rolling in a positive direction.

 

[sunnydog]

Glad to hear it SD, did you use any compost teas along the way?

Hello Suby.
Nope.
I pretty much mixed up a combo of LC’s Soiless Mix #1 and RECIPE #1 for new soil, and the 3lbs mix for used soil .
I added a bit of co-co to the soil.
A bit of guano (seabird and bat), just 'cause I think there are beneficial organisms in it, and a bit of langbienite.
Wet down with Lk and molasses water @1TBS.per gal to start off.
1and 2 gal pots.
Thats it.
SD

 

[Suby]

I`ve been adding coco to my mix and I love it, it make N more available in the mix so watch out for that, I`ve noticed better rooting of my pots since upping the coco.

Organic compost teas should be your next step, they`ve made as much of a differenece as my soil mix IMO and they are very easy to make.

I`m glad everyone is making up their own minds based on personal experinece

 

[sunnydog]

I`ve been adding coco to my mix and I love it, it make N more available in the mix so watch out for that, I`ve noticed better rooting of my pots since upping the coco.

Organic compost teas should be your next step, they`ve made as much of a differenece as my soil mix IMO and they are very easy to make.

I`m glad everyone is making up their own minds based on personal experinece

I've done teas before, just in my current set-up ( 2000w ,60-100 vertical 1 +2 gal. pots in a gro-tent, my MASTERPIECE) hand watering is almost impossible, so I'm REAL HAPPY this is working so well.I really need "less is more!"
I def. agree on the better roots through co-co.
SD

 

[OldBastard]

The coold thing with organics is once you've established which ingredient raise and which lower ph you can tailor your feedings to have a better balanced ph.

B1 and me agree on this that the use of hydro nutes is why most growers are concerned with ph.
I also believe container plants are more suceptible to ph swings as opposed to outdoor gardening and what's more even organic gardeners overfeed, the real key is the balance.

Know your water quality, know your soil, dolomite is your friend, make a rich quality soil mix, use teas regularly, and smoke and booze until your hearts content while other fuckers add nitirc acid to an otherwise organic grow and scratch their heads measuring runoff.



Rky- what can I say I'm patient

S

" while other fuckers add nitirc acid to an otherwise organic grow and scratch their heads measuring runoff."

He he!

nothing like making your soil into high explosives!
That was funny!

 

[magiccannabus]

Good thread! My stupid piece of shit Rapitest pH probe actually ruined an entire crop for me. The probe corrodes over time and I'd never heard about this problem before, so I was constantly messing with the mix to get it to a point where the pH was stable. I had tried not testing, and once I started testing things didn't improve.

What DID work for me was education. I now know so much vastly more than I did back then, and my soil mix reflects it. I don't test pH anymore. I just know my ingredients really well, and I understand their impacts on soil pH. Now I just put it together, mix it well, and relax with the knowledge that my mix is going to be fine....

 

[magiccannabus]

I`ve been adding coco to my mix and I love it, it make N more available in the mix so watch out for that, I`ve noticed better rooting of my pots since upping the coco.

I've made 1/3 of my mix out of coco coir and I really love how hard it is to over-water, and how much they seem to really love it. I will never willingly grow without it again.....

 

[WriteToEnlight]

Organic pH issues

I hear a lot of people asking or talking about the pH of their organic soil mix or organic nute solution and how they might correct or adjust it. pH in organics is not an issue like it is in synthetic growing.
The best place to settle the pH issues in organics is within the grow medium. A medium rich in humates (humus) is the place to start. Humates work to "buffer" the pH of organic mediums and the nutes you pour (or mix) into it.
Humates come from compost, worm castings and bottled humus. If you use a peat based medum, use dolomite lime to raise the pH of the acidic peat. Dolomite should be used in any soil or soiless medium to provide magnesium and calcium. But since we are talking about pH here, I'll mention dolomite lime's pH correction benefits.
A medium of coir has a pH near neutral (or 7.0). But humates are still neded to allow uptake of organic nutrients that are outside a near neutral pH range.
With an active medium rich in humates you can pour in nutes like Pure Blend Pro, Earth Juice and guano teas with pH anywhere from 4 to 9 without worry. The humus will allow the nutes to be taken up through the roots, even at such an extreme pH reading.
So throw those pH meters away folks and enjoy the ease and safety of organic gardening.

Burn1

It sounds like humas is the way to go then considering the ph buffering factors. I'm curious, What would you suggest to go about starting plants in humas or incorporating them into the garden. I think dolomite will be essential as well, where would you suggest getting the humas and dolomite from a competitively priced and safe company?

 

[maryjohn]

newb to the site...

newb to the site...

seems like giving one's philosophy on pH is a rite of passage here, so here goes:

You can touch your soil, see your soil, listen to your soil, and smell your soil, but how many of you taste your soil? Well, if you test for pH, that is essentially what you are doing. Acidic soil is sour, while basic soil is sweet. The pH test is merely a way of translating the taste of you soil into an exact visual representation. If I gave you three glasses of water, one with baking soda, one with 2 tsp acetic acid, and one with 2 tsp citric acid, you would be able to line them up according to pH every time, according to the way they taste.

So, is it important? Well gee, would you ever do all your gardening with your eyes shut? or numb your fingers so you can't feel the soil? So why would you not check your pH from time to time? If you taste your soil and then do stupid stuff to it, don't blame the tasting instrument. It's your fault you tried to use pH down on an organic grow, not the pH meter's.

In my vegetable garden, I test frequently for pH and N-P-K. I am an organic gardener, but that doesn't mean I don't take a snapshot of my soil balance. I do this especially in the spring before sowing, and also in the fall before i decide what amendments to apply.

The equivalent in organic container gardening is to get good readings every time you repot, so you know how to amend you growing medium.

I'm not advocating the micromanagement of pH, but i am saying it is foolish to eschew information of any kind, since it all contributes to developing a holistic "sense of garden".

 

[VerdantGreen]

ok, ill weigh in on this one as well - i dont like to leave it to pHate

i think the huge differences of opinion on the importance of monitoring pH are a product of the variable pH of tapwater in different areas. i would imagine that anyone who has successfully thrown away their pH meter lives in an area where the natural water pH is between 6 and 7.2 or so, either that or the seaweed etc they add to their water brings it to within that level.

my water ph is 7.8 and that, whilst it wouldnt kill my plants, simply will not optimise the nutrient availability to my plants. so i test pH and add a little citric acid to bring it down to about 6 after ive already added any other liquid feed to the water.
then the dolomite in the soil will correct it back towards 7 over the next couple of hours and the ph of the soil will pass through the optimum availability pH for most minerals needed.

im sure all those who are lucky enough to have water already at a good pH will think thats a bit of a faff, but im happy to take the extra 2 minutes to do that and i believe it will, in my particular situation, help my grow.

i would add that monitoring your pH is no substitute for having a decent balanced live organic soil mix with dolomite added in the first place

i posted a chart showing nutrient availability to plants in relation to pH if anyone is interested
http://icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=122924

sincerely
V.

 

[pinecone]

i would imagine that anyone who has successfully thrown away their pH meter lives in an area where the natural water pH is between 6 and 7.2 or so, either that or the seaweed etc they add to their water brings it to within that level.

my water ph is 7.8 and that, whilst it wouldnt kill my plants, simply will not optimise the nutrient availability to my plants. so i test pH and add a little citric acid to bring it down to about 6 after ive already added any other liquid feed to the water.

My water is more basic than yours and I haven't found any benefit to PHing down with citric acid running str8 FFOF and BioBizz nutes (which aren't very acidic)

Pine

 

[VerdantGreen]

My water is more basic than yours and I haven't found any benefit to PHing down with citric acid running str8 FFOF and BioBizz nutes (which aren't very acidic)

Pine

i use biobizz bloom at about half strength sometimes and i find that it brings the pH of my water down quite a bit, to about 6.5 (im sure i read somewhere that bloom is just seaweed and molasses!)

so if you are using them at half to full strength they are probably improving your pH considerably.

V.

 

[pinecone]

i use biobizz bloom at about half strength sometimes and i find that it brings the pH of my water down quite a bit, to about 6.5 (im sure i read somewhere that bloom is just seaweed and molasses!)

so if you are using them at half to full strength they are probably improving your pH considerably.

Your observation doesn't square at all with my recollections - so I checked. I mixed in a little over 2ml of BioBloom with a gallon of water that PHed at 7.9 and the PH dropped to 7.4. 2ml per gallon is about as heavy as I ever feed. I mixed up another gallon with about 1.5ml of BioBloom and got to a PH of 7.6. My PH pen calibrates fine at one point 7.01 so I think it is fairly accurate in the range we are talking about.

Now we are talking very small amounts of BioBloom here so there is some opportunity for measurement error, but I any way you shake it even with full dosages of nutrients (for me a full dose of Bloom is 0.5ml per quart) I'm not getting anywhere near the soil-safe PH levels as indicated in the chart you posted. As my plants do great despite this, and have done no better when I PHed down to the mid-6s, I'm left to the conclusion that PH doesn't matter for the type of grow that I have.

Pine

 

[BurnOne]

It sounds like humas is the way to go then considering the ph buffering factors. I'm curious, What would you suggest to go about starting plants in humas or incorporating them into the garden. I think dolomite will be essential as well, where would you suggest getting the humas and dolomite from a competitively priced and safe company?

Humus comes from compost and worm castings. You can make your own.
Burn1

 

[VerdantGreen]

Your observation doesn't square at all with my recollections - so I checked. I mixed in a little over 2ml of BioBloom with a gallon of water that PHed at 7.9 and the PH dropped to 7.4. 2ml per gallon is about as heavy as I ever feed. I mixed up another gallon with about 1.5ml of BioBloom and got to a PH of 7.6. My PH pen calibrates fine at one point 7.01 so I think it is fairly accurate in the range we are talking about.

Now we are talking very small amounts of BioBloom here so there is some opportunity for measurement error, but I any way you shake it even with full dosages of nutrients (for me a full dose of Bloom is 0.5ml per quart) I'm not getting anywhere near the soil-safe PH levels as indicated in the chart you posted. As my plants do great despite this, and have done no better when I PHed down to the mid-6s, I'm left to the conclusion that PH doesn't matter for the type of grow that I have.

Pine

hi pinecone, i missed this response - glad your method is working for you!

my bottle of biobloom says 2-5ml per litre so thats 8-17 or so per gallon, which means that you are using it extremely diluted - and that would have less effect on pH as you have observed.


we dont get ffof in uk but i think i read that it is quite acidic (thats one reason why they recommend adding dolomite), either that or your humic acid is doing a good job for you!

my water pH has been 8.2 last few times i measured so, because i am buffering my soil mix with dolomite, i like to lower the pH before watering.

our differences perhaps show how important personal experiance is - find a method that works well for you and then keep observing and thinking how we can improve it. every situation is different.

here is a pic of my canopy at 60 days (4 plant mod scrog under 250watt HPS)
im very pleased with the results - wouldnt it be great if we could easily isolate the things that really make our weed grow well from the things we do that make little difference! there are so many variables that it's hard to decide. i guess thats where experience and experimentation come in.

best

V.

 

[BurmeseDragon]

I never read that humic acid buffers ph? I think it is expensive and a pain to put everything into a hydro rez, that is outdoors.

 

[Tactical Farmer]

my water pH has been 8.2 last few times i measured so, because i am buffering my soil mix with dolomite, i like to lower the pH before watering.

Tap at 8.2 & you also add dolomite ? That a tough situation, just in case ya dont know lime will only make PH higher.

Misconception maybe that lime puts ya near 7 - I say HELL NO it makes high PH tap water way worse.

A good RO water system will help ALOT with high PH tap..

Thats my 4 cents.

Great looking plants though whatever the case may be..

 

[VerdantGreen]

thanks TF i amend my water down to around 6 with citric acid before i water.

dolomite lime will buffer down to 7 (see the dolomite sticky)
but it wont lower the pH of alkali water - hence the amendment.

thanks, yeah the plants did well

 

[elfstone]

Anyone use coffee grounds to lower soil pH?

 

[Valt]

My soil is ph 6.5 according to package and tap water is over 8. Should i lowering my water ph to 6-6.5 with citric acid before giving it to my plants?

For now i have using Advanced Hydrophonics of Holland Ph-down and its phosphoric acid and if i understood correctly this will killing micro-organics from soil?