Organics and Ph.

[swampdank]

new soil with added ammendments. i whipped up a batch of soil about a month and a half ago. i used the sunshine #1 with seabird and bat poo, blood meal, bone meal, and a little composrt added. i have not used any other adjustments or food yet.

it seems to be working pretty well. the plants dont seem to be lacking anything and i think i might have finally nailed a soil mix that needs no ph adjusting or additives after transplant. maybe a compost tea once or twice.

have a look....







if all goes well in this garden. i will have drawn a final conclusion on the ph deal. i hope that my conclusion is to toss the meter idea as that will mean that my garden is very user friendly. fingers crossed.


p.s. the leaf curl in the above pictures is a unique natural trait in the f13/ bb sativa strain. i freaked the first time i witnessed it but after some research, i found it to be natural and uncontrollable.

 

[Suby]

Those pics don't show up for me SD?

It's all about understanding what makes ph work up or down and then you can tailor something that fits with your water and soil mix

S

 

[ixnay007]

Those pics don't show up for me SD?

It's all about understanding what makes ph work up or down and then you can tailor something that fits with your water and soil mix

S

Don't click on his gallery, I did, and icmag went down for a minute (not kidding), I think the image server has problems...

In fact, my gallery only has blank spaces with the title underneath

 

[swampdank]

i think the server is acting up. i spoke with a few other members and they are expiriencing the same problems. hope fully they will get it fixed. i really wanted to post these pics. im sure they will iron out the wrinkles. the pics were fine last night, this morning, all hell broke loose.

 

[swampdank]

ahh. they fixed it. nice.

i was hoping i didnt lose all my pics. shit, now i need updated pics because they have grown just that much since those last photos were taken.

 

[JackTheGrower]

I quit using my meter.

It always said it was about 6.8 anyway.. so I quit checking.

Jack

 

[JackTheGrower]

Ixnay is the user I was responding to lol


Don`t adjust with 3 weeks to go, not worth it IMO.
Use dolomite next time to raise ph, it`s VERY easy to brew an acidic organic tea, it`s much more a chalenge to raise ph after the fact.
The idea is to provide dolomite for a steady source of calcium and magnesium as well as slowly raising the ph which gets dipped down with ferts.


Organic Apple Cider Vinegar you can purchase at any health food or even grocery store, people with digestion or acid reflux problems can use it to help and it`s a great salad dressing to boot lol.

S

Stoner moment:

What would we get if we puree a few apples and add it to our next tea as we apply the tea ( not brew with it that is ).

Jack

 

[Suby]

Apple juice is a great fungal favorite, it should work out fine

 

[Suby]

Our friend Microbeman made a nice comment about Ph in organics on his thread and keep in mind he does this shit for a living

 

[hempybucquet]

PH and sex

PH and sex

I have been growing with Coast of maine potting soil.

Growing as a Dr Bud Greengenes 20oz pop bottle SOG I have grown out 14 seedlings now without any problems other then initial noobish over watering. No spots, no indications that PH is off or that there are any lockout issues.



The problem has been males.. Of the 14 seeds sprouted, only 3 are female, and two were hermies. The rest were all happy and healthy boys. I just received a PM that suggested that the reason for the poor sex ratio was a low PH. My water comes out of the tap @ 5.8, and after adding Fish emulsion, molasseses, and Schultz, tests at 6-6.2. So my question is....

Is the PH really the culprit for my high male ratio? And with so many healthy plants showing no signs of PH issues after several months of growing this way should I now start worrying about PH upping my water?

My girls 30 days into flower

 

[ixnay007]

No, you could try upping the nitrogen content in your soil.. but if your plants are happy, there's no point changing PH.

 

[Kif-Rif]

Soil Biology and pH by Jeff Lowenfels

The success of the AeroGarden, the first plug-and-grow aeroponic kitchen appliance, is testament to the fact that ordinary people do not understand the concept of pH and don't want to deal with it in their growing situations. Make it so you can practice hydroponics without this chemistry barrier and they will come, apparently.

Frankly, the concept of pH also confuses soil gardeners. Heck, the definition of pH was inadvertently reversed in my book "Teaming With Microbes: A Gardener's Guide to the Soil Food Web." (Yes, some readers noticed; I received two "you made a mistake" notes. But that's not as many as I thought I'd receive.) Fortunately, the mistake was corrected in time for the second printing.

In any case, soil gardeners have been told certain plants require acidic conditions- for example, rhododendrons and azaleas- or else they won't grow. The solution advocated by most experienced gardeners is not dissimilar from what a hydroponics grower would do: adjust the pH with chemicals, such as agricultural lime, to make the soil more alkaline. To make alkaline soil more acid, we are told to add sulfur. Because they are chemical changes, these solutions work for a short time. But to me pH is a biological matter.

A bit of quick pH review is in order (if only to make amends for the mistake in my book). You may remember that pH is a measure of the acidity or alkalinity of a solution on a scale of 1 to 14; 1 being most acidic and 14 being most alkaline. A more technical description is that pH is the measurement of the concentration of hydrogen ions, H+. If you have lots of H+, the pH is low, or acidic. If you have few of them, the pH is high, or alkaline.

If you are adding fertilizers and using chemicals, you are stuck in the chemical realm. Organic gardeners, soil food webbies in particular, realize that pH has more to do with biology than it does with chemistry. That's because of the way plant roots take up nutrients. Root hair surfaces are covered with positive electrical hydrogen cations. Think of these charges as ping-pong balls. If soil particles are small enough, their surfaces are covered by these ping-pong ball charges, both positive (cation) charges and negative (anion) charges. These cations are not limited to hydrogen; they also include calcium, potassium, sodium, magnesium, iron, and ammonium. All are important plant nutrients.

When a root encounters a clay or organic particle, it can exchange one of its hydrogen cation for another positive one from the particle. It can choose from calcium, potassium, sodium, magnesium, iron, ammonium and hydrogen, as these are all cations carried by clay and silt and are all, as luck would have it, major plant nutrients.

This is known, incidentally, as cation exchange capacity, or CEC. Sand and silt have low CECs, because they comprised of particles that are too large to hold electrical charges. This is why humus and clay are needed to make soil good. They are extremely small particles and can carry cations.

So, back to pH. Every time a plant root exchanges a hydrogen ion for a nutrient ion, it increases the concentration of hydrogen ions in solution. Thus, the pH goes down and things should become more acidic.

Ah, but things usually balance out because the positive cations on the root surface also attract negative charges. Here, hydroxy ions (OH-) are the exchange ping-pong balls, and addition of hydroxy ions lowers the concentration of hydrogen ions in the solution, and pH goes up.

I know this still sounds like chemistry and not biology. However, each plant has an optimum pH requirement. What soil growers need to know (and hydroponics growers don't) is that the type of bacteria and fungi attracted to a plant's rhizosphere by the plant's exudates has a lot to do with setting this optimal pH. Bacteria produce a slim that raises the pH, and fungi produce acids that lower the pH. Since the plant is in control of the biology it attracts, in a natural system, it is the plant that determines the pH, and not some chemistry teacher.

So, while you may forget the chemistry of pH, at least remember there is a biological side. Do no harm to it, and you shouldn't have to worry much about pH when you grow plants in soil. Moreover, the nutrient exchanges that occur above also have a lot to do with what kind of bacteria and fungi are attracted to the root zone as some like higher pH and others lower pH.

 

[hempybucquet]

Thank you for the replies! So I guess I will chalk up the high male ratio to bad luck and look forward to adding the clones rooting from my females to the flowering chamber.

In the meantime the few ladies I have keep filling in, and get closer to my first indoor harvest.

 

[Suby]

I know this still sounds like chemistry and not biology. However, each plant has an optimum pH requirement. What soil growers need to know (and hydroponics growers don't) is that the type of bacteria and fungi attracted to a plant's rhizosphere by the plant's exudates has a lot to do with setting this optimal pH. Bacteria produce a slim that raises the pH, and fungi produce acids that lower the pH. Since the plant is in control of the biology it attracts, in a natural system, it is the plant that determines the pH, and not some chemistry teacher.

So, while you may forget the chemistry of pH, at least remember there is a biological side. Do no harm to it, and you shouldn't have to worry much about pH when you grow plants in soil. Moreover, the nutrient exchanges that occur above also have a lot to do with what kind of bacteria and fungi are attracted to the root zone as some like higher pH and others lower pH.

Great post, I think this quote essentially fills in a huge gap in the "organic soil doesn't need ph adjusting" debate.
It's cool to think that root exudase can shift the microlife to what it needs.
I need to offline and get my nose back in the books

 

[texas grass]

Soil Biology and pH by Jeff Lowenfels

The success of the AeroGarden, the first plug-and-grow aeroponic kitchen appliance, is testament to the fact that ordinary people do not understand the concept of pH and don't want to deal with it in their growing situations. Make it so you can practice hydroponics without this chemistry barrier and they will come, apparently.

Frankly, the concept of pH also confuses soil gardeners. Heck, the definition of pH was inadvertently reversed in my book "Teaming With Microbes: A Gardener's Guide to the Soil Food Web." (Yes, some readers noticed; I received two "you made a mistake" notes. But that's not as many as I thought I'd receive.) Fortunately, the mistake was corrected in time for the second printing.

In any case, soil gardeners have been told certain plants require acidic conditions- for example, rhododendrons and azaleas- or else they won't grow. The solution advocated by most experienced gardeners is not dissimilar from what a hydroponics grower would do: adjust the pH with chemicals, such as agricultural lime, to make the soil more alkaline. To make alkaline soil more acid, we are told to add sulfur. Because they are chemical changes, these solutions work for a short time. But to me pH is a biological matter.

A bit of quick pH review is in order (if only to make amends for the mistake in my book). You may remember that pH is a measure of the acidity or alkalinity of a solution on a scale of 1 to 14; 1 being most acidic and 14 being most alkaline. A more technical description is that pH is the measurement of the concentration of hydrogen ions, H+. If you have lots of H+, the pH is low, or acidic. If you have few of them, the pH is high, or alkaline.

If you are adding fertilizers and using chemicals, you are stuck in the chemical realm. Organic gardeners, soil food webbies in particular, realize that pH has more to do with biology than it does with chemistry. That's because of the way plant roots take up nutrients. Root hair surfaces are covered with positive electrical hydrogen cations. Think of these charges as ping-pong balls. If soil particles are small enough, their surfaces are covered by these ping-pong ball charges, both positive (cation) charges and negative (anion) charges. These cations are not limited to hydrogen; they also include calcium, potassium, sodium, magnesium, iron, and ammonium. All are important plant nutrients.

When a root encounters a clay or organic particle, it can exchange one of its hydrogen cation for another positive one from the particle. It can choose from calcium, potassium, sodium, magnesium, iron, ammonium and hydrogen, as these are all cations carried by clay and silt and are all, as luck would have it, major plant nutrients.

This is known, incidentally, as cation exchange capacity, or CEC. Sand and silt have low CECs, because they comprised of particles that are too large to hold electrical charges. This is why humus and clay are needed to make soil good. They are extremely small particles and can carry cations.

So, back to pH. Every time a plant root exchanges a hydrogen ion for a nutrient ion, it increases the concentration of hydrogen ions in solution. Thus, the pH goes down and things should become more acidic.

Ah, but things usually balance out because the positive cations on the root surface also attract negative charges. Here, hydroxy ions (OH-) are the exchange ping-pong balls, and addition of hydroxy ions lowers the concentration of hydrogen ions in the solution, and pH goes up.

I know this still sounds like chemistry and not biology. However, each plant has an optimum pH requirement. What soil growers need to know (and hydroponics growers don't) is that the type of bacteria and fungi attracted to a plant's rhizosphere by the plant's exudates has a lot to do with setting this optimal pH. Bacteria produce a slim that raises the pH, and fungi produce acids that lower the pH. Since the plant is in control of the biology it attracts, in a natural system, it is the plant that determines the pH, and not some chemistry teacher.

So, while you may forget the chemistry of pH, at least remember there is a biological side. Do no harm to it, and you shouldn't have to worry much about pH when you grow plants in soil. Moreover, the nutrient exchanges that occur above also have a lot to do with what kind of bacteria and fungi are attracted to the root zone as some like higher pH and others lower pH.

i have his book teaming with microbes, its an excellent book and talks about all this stuff, great read and as suby said more info on why true organics doesnt need ph

 

[menial]

I use Earthjuice, it's certified organic but has a ph of (very low) takes at least 10 mls of ph up - potassium hydroxide per gallon of light-medium grow strength vege nutes.

 

[hdn155]

I have some clones in 20oz bottles of ffof mixed with 1/3 perlite.. i seem to be having a slight ph issue. the tips of the plants seem to be curling to either side. I did not add any dolomite lime when i transplanted as i did not have any at the time. I got a box today and i wanted to know if top dressing the soil would be good enough to buffer the ph??
I have just been feeding with ff big bloom for now. Today i got some EC's and some Guanos. i plan to start brewing tea's from here on out.

 

[Peat]

This is a great thread.
I've read this thing front & back. Over & over.
Incredible input by lots of good folks covering lots of different methods...
There seems to be more than one way to skin a cat. :kitty:



What kind of F'ed up saying is that?

How 'bout,
The man that already knows it all, can't learn anything new.
(That's directed toward me, BTW.)

============================================
A bit more than a few years ago, I bought a $100 (or so) Hanna meter.
It never stopped fluctuating wildly. And certainly was never consistant.
I eventually just returned it.

Later on, I spent a few bucks on a couple of these:



I think Dignan's may be a step better. His chart gives you the .25 levels, where as mine only gives .5 levels. But, I figure .5 ought to be close enough.

... if you decide that OCD monitoring of pH levels isn't your thing and you just want to establish a baseline and then test periodically to be sure your water source is still within the original range... then don't waste your money on a $100 digital meter... just buy a $8.00 pack of Alkalive test strips and call it good (unless you love owning cool gadgets, then knock yourself out).
Dig

========================================================

A little background info:

I switched to LC Mix #2 and PBP about 3 years ago.
I got a few good ones under my belt and (more or less) developed a method and baseline / expectation.

Then, a couple of years ago, I switched to fish ferts.
After a couple of runs, I couldn't tell a difference. (And was now free of the hydro store!)
I use it a bit heavier than BurnOne prescribes in his Beginner’s thread.

RECIPE #5Fish and Seaweed (This is sooo easy)

For veg growth…
1 capful 5-1-1 Fish Emulsion
1 capful Neptune's Harvest 0-0-1 Seaweed or Maxicrop liquid
1 gallon H2O

For early flowering…
1 tbs. Neptune’s Harvest 2-3-1 Fish/Seaweed
1 gallon H2O

For mid to late flowering…
1 tbs. Neptune’s Harvest 2-4-1 Fish
1 gallon H2O

(BTW, 1 capful = 5ml)

Not always, but as a rule of thumb:
In early veg, I use 5-1-1 @ 5ml + 0-0-1 @ 5ml per gallon of water, every watering (every 5 days, or so).
In late veg and early flower, I use 5-1-1 @ 10 ml/gal + 0-0-1 @ 5ml/gal.
After 2 or 3 wks into flowering, I switch to 15ml 2-3-1
The last 2-3 wks of flowering gets plain water.

======================================================================
Everything has been smooth sailing for about 2 yrs +/-.
Until, just lately...Burning issues...





Tap, Nute mix, & Drainage pH = 6.5
Drainage that sits overnight in collection container = 7.5+ (...off the chart...I'm guessin' 8.0)
I just recently tested some apple cider vinegar = 4.5- (...off the chart...in the other direction...I'm guessin' 4.0)
I trust my papers. :wink:

Maybe my problems are in the soil?
I got a little behind and maybe didn't mix the ingredients as thoroughly as I should have. I didn't add any water to moisten the mix. And I used it immediately.

In hindsight, I think the ingredients need the moisture and time (2 wks +/- ) to become a fully integrated soil.

But I dunno...

 

[sunnydog]

Due to PITA issues, I gave up ph-ing my water.
All are thriving.
My life is easier.
Me and my plants are happier.
I no longer believe ph requires correction, other than in possibly the most extreme circumstances.

I am convinced.
Thank You!

 

[Suby]

Glad to hear it SD, did you use any compost teas along the way?