Organic Growing: Discussion, Critiques, and Suggestions.

[hobosapien]

hello IC mag,

i thought i might start a thread to follow this current round i have going, to share what i have learned about growing organic, and to get some suggestions along the way... LEARNING.... you know.

i have 4 Orange Bud (DP) and 3 Mystery Mix (not yet pictured), from various seed packs i have collected over time...

all the seedlings broke soil about 10 days ago.

they are veggin 24/0 w/ 2 32w 6400*k 4ft bulbs in a thrown together 'tentish' type thing.

Fed to date: water (bubbled), and a dilute tea mix in the second week.

enjoy.













Keep it green IC.

PS- soil is FF light warrior.

 

[judas cohen]

Looks like you're off to a good start! When and what do you plan to transplant into? Good Luck!

Edit: Oh yeah, what was your tea mix and and do you use a small fan? (I veg in same set-up that you use including a small tent.)

 

[hobosapien]

surprisingly fast growth i tell yea! every six hours it is noticable....

i popped the lid on one of them (actually two), and the root development is BOOMin fuzzy whites. Thinkin bout gettin acouple more containers, and transplanting in a couple days... might drop a couple 45w CFL's on em too....

funny though, i notice two strange things among the four already.

one plant actually grew a four fingered leave, and as you all know the general pattern is 1,3,5.. it is a midget lookin thing, actually kinda cute/worrisom, seeing as OB is reported to have some hermie tendencies.... AND out of four 3 are a bit shorter with nice green stems, and one is about an inch taller and has a purple stem, w/ vert tight growth...

i hate to hazard early guesses, but all varience between now and flower aside... i am thinkin 3/1(f/m) ratio!


JC: howdy, the tea mix is something like 1/2c POM AP 5-5-5, 1c good earth worm castings, 1 -2 tbs mollases, 1 tea EJ grow, and a cap full O maxi sea weed.

actually on that note, i just fed some plants a FUNKY smellin tea a while ago...

inspired by VON, i grew some 'mold' using coffe, ground rye, groung birdseed, and some leaf material... after is was all white and fluffy i added one spoon full to the tea which has allready been bubbling for three or four days. i dont think it went anerobic, but i have never bubbled a tea that long OR added fungi/mold, so i hope it was the ingredients and not an indication of an anerobic environment (tough to achieve with a pump on 24/7 eh).

pics soon.

keep it green.

 

[Closet Funk]

Organic is the way to go period. It allows cannabis to be grown naturally the way it's supposed to be. It may take some time to get down how a plant feeds off organic amendments and what works best. So far I think worm castings, bat guano, liquid seaweed, liquid fish, and mollasses is a must for any organic grower.

 

[joe cool]

I'm still trying to understand the benefit of growing mold for soil. I can understand (and use) mycorrhizae, but what benefit from mold, and is there any studies/grows showing it's effectiveness? I'v never heard of it in any mainstream organic gardening books. Like Clost Funk said, castings, guano, seaweed, fish and molasses is a great place to start. Grow with just these for awhile to get the hang of it.

I've been reading a bit here in organics today, and I've noticed that people seem to want to throw everything in the organic arsenal at their plants. Some are worried about PPM, pH, and other stuff that never has given me an issue.

I think people are over-analyzing organics. As with any nutes, less is more, and go from there to fine tune your efforts.

It's natural, let nature take its course. The best tools are observation and experience.

 

[judas cohen]

Yeah! But...

Yeah! But...

^^^^^^What Closet Funk and Joe Cool said. I agree. But many growers are Mad Scientists/Witch Doctors and really enjoy playing around in search of "THE ULTIMATE FORMULA!!!". Kinda' like hot rodders spending $$$ to get just a little bit more from their engines.

Somewhere between throwing bagseed in a field and coming back in the fall to hopefully find a plant; and CO2, light movers, and $1000 worth of Advanced Nutrients is where most folks wind up.

The sad thing is most newbies take the second approach because they think it takes buku bucks to grow the dank. My first grow was bagseed, MiracleGrow Potting Soil, perlite, and water. (The perlite made me feel like a professional grower.) LOL

The results encouraged me to graduate to FFOF and POM 5-8-4. Then came recycling soil, meals & guanos, and teas. Now a good custom soil mix that will grow with only water and a little tea (if needed) is my goal.

JC- The mold is to promote fungi populations. Whether it helps, hurts, or does some of both, is subject to legitimate debate and depends on the quality/type/strength/amount/timing/soil mix/etc. That's what I think, but I could be wrong, so I respect other points of view. LOL

I am convinced that more cannabis plants are killed from Too Much Stuff, wrongly applied, than die from Lack Of Enough Stuff.

 

[joe cool]

right on, judas

right on, judas

I can't disagree with any of your yeah but's, I will quickly find myself in over my head if I try to argue benefits of mold. I just don't go that way with the mold thing. When I make a batch of soil I often get a little mold on top of the mix, but just mix it back into the soil and don't give it much thought as to whether it hurts or helps. I just figure it's part of the composting process of the new mix.

I like this one, JC:

"I am convinced that more cannabis plants are killed from Too Much Stuff, wrongly applied, than die from Lack Of Enough Stuff."

Exactly where I am coming from.

First timers seem to be looking for a magic bullet/recipe/super-fert. They should understand that there is no magic in this, it is really quite easy once a little experience is gained. The plant wants to grow, we just need to let it do it's thing and care for it when it needs it, and just because these super-ferts/mixes/additives are available doesn't mean they're necessary.

 

[judas cohen]

joe cool- "Exactamundo!" re: your last paragraph. (First paragraph, too.) LOL

Hobo- 1)Was that tea recipe for 5 gal of water? 2) Seedlings reaction? 3)What soil/ferts/container size do you plan on? Thanks In Advance for your answers.

 

[hobosapien]

hhey all,

been without a computer, kinda shitty, but the upside is i make the most of the posts! pics updated. by my figure they are about 3 1/2 weeks old, were transplanted 3 day ago and are looking great.

feeding: EJ grow(2tbs),EWC(1c),POM 5-5-5 (w/Mycorrihzae)(1/2c), molasses(2tbs),maxi fish/seaweed(capOeach), and i added alfalfa meal, and high N guano (@.5c EA.)

soil: 1:1 FF OF/LW + POM, guano, alfalfa, and lime to balance PH.

light: i picked up a 125w CFl from sunleaves, that thing KICKS, babdies put on an inch in 18 hrs...

the 'mold' scenario- word, i picked up the idea from Von. i believe the 'benefit', if any, would be upping the bacterial count. if your brewwing for beneficials, and you add 'mold' late, maybe 6 hrs before soil soak, whatever 'negative' bacteria are present will be out competed, leaving whatever possible beneficials to complement your already VAST array of microbial interaction.... or something.... = )











with the pics posted, i woud like to jump into some of the discussion...

Judas- sounds like we are on the the same track learning at about the same curve, glad to make your quasai aquaintance. recycling soil seems like a very effective way of keeping safe (trash pulls), being efficient, and having first hand knowledge and control over your soil condition,structure, ingredients, and microbial activity.... thats the aim, pure water the whole cycle through, what a dream to come true.

the tea mix is for about 1.5 gal of water. for seedlings i dilute it abit...
their reaction?? they practically scoffed, started showing alight green leaves, saying, FEED YOUR BITCHES pretty much... so i did, and the responded in kind (pun intended).

joe cool- thanks for stopping in man, stick around, i hope to help facilitate a BIT of learning for us all.

ClosetFunk- great to see you round these parts, i appreciate your encouragement.

keep it green IC.

 

[judas cohen]

Hobo:^^^^^^^ As per your most recent post- You're feeding over 2 1/2 cups of goodies in 1 1/2 gal of water? Yikes!!! The kids do look good though.

I've never used 125 watt cfl; but I had a verticle 65 watt 4100k CFL over 9 seedlings in one qt containers crammed into one square foot, with an inverted bowl type reflector, and they fucking loved it. I kept the tip of the light about 1" from the tips of the plants and never burned a leaf.(even when they would grow into the light over night.)

That soil mix looks good. How much 5-5-5, guano, alfalfa, and lime did you add.

What's the ph of your tapwater?

 

[gromer]

One of the first things I ever read on using organic fertilizers is that they perform better when all used in conjunction with one another give the plant as many possible sources for its beatie colony to derive nutes from and youll be stylin.I also add mycorrhyzal and beneficial bacteria from some 7 or 8 sources in force overkill you may think I say the more the merrier just gotta have enough food present for all the little buggers and youll be all set.The colony can only be as large as the food source.But any beasties that perish are just consumed by the survivors maintaining balance and strenghthinning the micro herd even more so again the more the merrier.Same with sugars one of their main food sources some say whoa dont add to much dont want em to over multiply.What?Thats exactly what you want so again I add sugars from some 6 to 7 sources in force.Overkill?Never?Anylyzing too much?Is it possible?Could I actually learn or care too much about what goes on beneath the soils surface?No I think not.And as far as the whole ph/ppm issues concerned Ive seen two schools of thought some say ahh its not important.They never check anything they never measure,they dont own a meter of any kind and they go by what I call feel.Well for a long time I was that gut saying oh I am an organic grower I dont have to worry about it.I randomly checked my waters ph with a cheap aquarium kit and would take a soil reading once a year or so with a cheap rapitest powder type test.Finally after alot of urging and spending a few bux I said to hell with it Ill give this a try.And now I ph everything[organically of course] I check readings on nute solution,soil,I measure out the ppm based on the 60% theory,I use ro water for everything instead of being cheap and lazy and using the well water I did b4.And you know what It does matter it matters big time!!Once you know whats going on nute wise skys the limit asw far as yields concerned .You wanna see the most crazy,only could be acheived using hydro,but yummy da lish organic,out of this world buds youve ever had keep an eye on the ph,measure yer nutes just to see what the hellis it Ive been feeding them.Consider the things youve added to the soil mix,what percentage was immidiatly available what was the period of release on the rest of the nute percentage get a little scientific,hell pull out the lab coat and microscope if it helps.Just dont use organics as a crutch to be lazy and say well I want the dank so crazy yields arnt possible cus ya know what with a little time,money and a whole lotta imagination youll be seeing and all organic gram pr watt garden in no time.Sorry for the rant I just wanted to put that out there.Living organics is the way to go.Why be organic and not be involved in the life below the surface thats like growing hydro without the water.Just my thoughts,hope this post helps even one person if it does Ive won.Thanxx Gromerr Pott!!

 

[Guest]

I have an organic grow just started. I posted all the stuff that I put in a soil mix I made up this weekend. It is "cooking" in a rubbermaid tub as I wait for my 36 seedlings to get 2-3 weeks old and I can transplant. I would welcome any comments/suggestions

Thanks
obli

 

[joe cool]

Plants look great, hobo and great discussion.

Just to qualify my prevous posts, I am in no way inferring that there is a right way or a wrong way, there are as many styles as there are growers. Whatever works for you, whatever you enjoy doing and is giving you what you want is the right way for you. I was just saying, maybe for the benefit of the less experienced, it can be as complex or simple as you want to make it. I don't consider my way "lazy" at all, it's just my way. I've been gardening for over 30 years and I've found what works for me...what may be obvious or second nature to me may not be so for others starting out.

I'm not here to compete with anyone or to say my way is best. I am here with an open mind and willing to learn and pass on what I know.

 

[gromer]

No I totally agree Joe thats why I said for a long time thats the way I did things too did just fine just making sure that everyone is not stuck in that my method is the greatest I can learn or experiment no further rut.Cus you can always do better there is always somthing new to try no one way is right.Not at all saying that my method is the only way thats why I dont even like telling peeps what I use or when.Gives them too much of an opprotunity to try and follow my recipe when in actuality my way is a combination and collaboration of info and methods from prolly 50 different sources.Every one of those sources thought their way was it on a stick couldnt get any better or bigger.Then I employed their methods with their buddys whom they hate method and get better sucess than either one.It was the over anylizing comment that got me.Growing could never be over anylized or one can not experiment too much.The day I cease to learn is the day they stik me in the ground myself.Till then Ill continue my research and experiments in search of the holy grail of organic marijuana yields.Anyone hit 4lbs a light with organics yet?Maybe if somone does theyll come and school me on their techniques.Im always willing to learn.Peace,Gromerr Pott!!

 

[joe cool]

I see what you're saying gromer. I am an old fart and might sound like I am stuck in my ways, but I'm also very skeptical about some of the new organic wonder additives that companies market with over-inflated claims about what it will do. This is not to say that all are bad, I just approach these things with a questioning eye, and really try to think if it makes sense. Not saying things haven't evolved and changed here...I'm just not going to immediately jump on the latest thing without something to back it up.

Most of what I put in the soil comes directly from some sort of animals rear-end, very few bottles of anything in use here. I agree that there is no "recipe" that can be given out. The best advice I see around here is to "grow it", then go from there. A cup of observation, a tablespoon or two of advice, and truckload of experience is the best recipe I can come up with.

gromer, I am interested in your trials and experiments, and I'm hoping to learn something new here, so let us what you come up with.

 

[hobosapien]

hey all,

judas: yea it may seem like a big thick drink, but i am trying not to think about the plant, let the plant take what it needs from the soil... i'll just make sure the soil is STOCKED.

gromer: how about the things i have heard reguarding the 'untestability of organic nutes'. it is a popular theory that the EC/PPM/PH doesnt read as well as with chemo ferts, because the nutes are in a more complex form.(carbon) i dont know is this is true, just what i have heard... Ps- 4lb/light @ 600w/SOG- DOABLE!(?)

Joe- thanks for stopping by bud, i'll be checking your thread soon. What was you base soil? maybe you could cut and paste your soil recipe here. it IS organic, and we WOULD be discussing...

updates soon.

keep it green all

 

[judas cohen]

Hobo; I hear ya'. Sure seems to be working good for you. Why change a winning system? ( But did you ever try to take only what you need from a cup of coffee with 6 tbl of sugar in it, or scrambled eggs with a TBL of salt?) A person will survive on that diet, but maybe do even better when less is more.

It's possible that somewhere between my sissy aproach and your "damn the torpedoes" approach lies an approach that will will make both our plants grow even better. Not arguing, just askin' if you think it's possible.

I think(but I may be wrong) that:
Feed the soil, not the plant is also feeding the microbes. Too much molasses can both upset the bacteria/fungi balance and/or do even worse things. Too much dolomite can really be a cluster ****- much worse than not enough.

It is possible to kill plants with too much organic ferts.

Goldilocks Principle- just enough, but not too much equals just right. Soil and nute testin is useful, but I can't afford it. Trial and error is the next best approach I'm aware of, but so far haven't used side by side clones or been very scientific about it.

Every action I take causes a reaction by the plant. Problem is there's usually an invisible upside & down side and I only see the end result. 7 steps forward and 3 steps back, I only see the result of 4 steps forward and think I know what I'm doing.

WTF! It just a weed with flowers that grows pretty good on its own if I just stay out of its way. LOL & LOL some more.

I'll be pretty busy for awhile and won't have time to post much. (Will lurk a bit, though.) It's been fun, enjoyed comparing opinions with you. I wish you happy growing and continued success. Take Care/Stay Safe, 'mano.

PS: Joe cool_ I agree with everything you've said in all your posts. Thanks for giving me reality on what I believe. Gives me hope that at least I'm on the right track.

Gromer- I can dig where you're coming from.

Lotsa' interestin g and (in my mind) mostly true info posted by EVERYONE in this thread. Thanks, folks!

 

[joe cool]

Ya hobo just try a side by side, maybe two plants against two, cut your ferts by a quarter for two of them and feed the other two as you normally would. You might be pleasantly surprised!

My soil recipe? not much of a recipe, really never had to write it down. I start with a five gallon pail, fill two-thirds with sunhine mix or pro-mix, fill the other third with worm castings. Three of these pails fill my holding bin. To the large bin I add a scoop (maybe 1-2 cups...it's an old margarine container) of pelletized dolomitic lime, a scoop of alga-min kelp meal, several of the large alfalfa pellets broken up, a scoop of bone meal. I then wet it down with a strong mix of alaska fish ferts 5-1-1. That's it, pretty much. Oh, and a bunch of perlite to make it nice and light, maybe 1-2 of the smaller bags, depends on the plants I'm growing, some like it very light, some a bit heavier. I'll thrown in the used dregs from tea mixes when I think of it, so stuff is being added to it as it goes.

When repotting I use one tablespoon of high-P and high-N bat guano per gallon of soil, added into the bottom half of the pot. I feed with various guano teas through the full grow. I love Budswel, but it's expensive so gets used as a treat and at critical times in flowering.

You've got the right idea about feeding the soil, but like judas says, too much of a good thing can throw things out of whack. BUT, the proof is in the puddin', and it sounds like it's working for ya, so grow them babies hard.

Here's a very recent anecdote for you guys, about comparative growth side by side. On my last repot of my blockhead clones, I forgot the myco on two of them (out of four). I knew I forgot, but wasn't sure which two. Well, overnight I found out. Two had got established with the myco and in a matter of a day they were about 25% larger than the two without. It is so obvious it practically made me laugh. These were all cuts of the same size off the same plant. Pretty much made me a true believer in the myco.

judas- hope you check in occasionally and post here and there. I like reading your stuff. I like your attitude, man.

 

[hobosapien]

yea, uh, i have some bad news. learning the hard way sucks...
(but its insightful)

my PH DROPPED big time. i checked it @ 4.5!!!! babies in disarray. you all provided the information and opinion, i was just trucking right along.....

in anycase two look able to be salvaged. and i am going to re read this whole thread, all my books pertaining to organics, and start fresh with a new approach.

JC(x2)- you two were right on, less=more. i forgot the goal was to use plain water and grow good... problem assesed, lesson learned, mistake NOT to be made again.

judas- its been a pleasure brushing shoulders here in this virtuall galley of gods and growers. i hope to see you around, and continue discussing orgainc techniques.

joe- your anecdote demonstrated your skills as a grower, PAYING attention is crucial, what product do you use to 'establish myco(rrhizae)'.

keep it green all,

and thanks bunches for the support/discussion/info which we have shared in.
might no thave any good news to share for a while, but when i do, you'll all be posted.

 

[gromer]

Ahh areally intelligent organic grow discussion with like minded folks who can all get along and make good but also hear others points.What in this great world could be better?You guys are great keep up the organic goodness!!Peace,Gromerr Pott!!!