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Oils ain't Oils…PNO v HNO

ozzieAI

Well-known member
Veteran
It has always confused me why some people (like myself) have excellent success using neem oil, either as a foliar spray or as a soil drench to deal with pests, and others don't. So there seems to be two types of neem oil: Pure cold pressed Neem Oil (PNO) and Hydrophobic Neem Oil (HNO). The former is 100% oil and the later 70% oil + 30% inert 'stuff'. The HNO has been through an alcohol extraction process to remove the azadirachtin (aza) from the cold pressed oil. The aza is the main active ingredient used to fight insects.

Now that the aza has been removed from the HNO leaving only trace elements behind, it can still be sold as neem oil. Whilst HNO can still be effective as a bug spray it relies more on the oil covering and suffocating the insects rather than the properties of the aza. So why do they remove the aza in the first place? Mainly to improve it's storage capabilities, 100% neem oil does have a shelf life, and to make it easier to use. There are even a couple of products out there where they add aza back into the HNO????

Personally I have found that the systemic properties of PNO basically work as an organic insect repellent for my plants. Bugs that used to frequent my plants for a feed like grasshoppers and caterpillars are now rare sights. I have watched Common Grass Yellow butterflies (CGYB) that usually love my flowering plants fly up to my girls and then fly away again. I have observed this not only on my plants but those of grow buddies who also use PNO as a soil drench. In the past there used to be numerous CGYB hanging around my plants laying eggs. These eggs hatch caterpillars that then used to crawl into my buds and start eating away, leaving me with dead and dying buds. The caterpillars also cause mould to infect my plants through the rotting dead buds or their crap.

Indoors using PNO systemically has helped me eradicate fungus gnats, spider mites and root aphids from my grow tent. The usual dose I use is 5ml/litre once a week or so and have used up to 12ml/litre to deal with a persistent RA problem. The PNO needs to be emulsified properly to be effectively dispersed into the water. It leaves no real residue on the soil or the roots when watered into the soil, but makes the leaves shiny almost waxy when sprayed. I only water by hand and don't think a PNO mix is suitable for reticulation systems. PNO when mixed with water it should be used pretty much straight away as it loses its effectiveness quite quickly.

Here are links that I have found helpful when coming to understand how neem oil/aza works.

http://www.ublcorp.com/files/Biological_Insecticides.pdf

http://www.neemfoundation.org/neem-articles/neem-in-organic-farming/agricultural-usepotential.html

http://www.discoverneem.com/neem-oil-insecticide.html

Here is a list of how aza affects insects:
  • Disrupting or inhibiting the development of eggs, larvae or pupae.
  • Blocking the molting of larvae or nymphs
  • Disrupting mating and sexual communication
  • Repelling larvae and adults
  • Deterring females from laying eggs
  • Sterilizing adults
  • Poisoning larvae and adults
  • Deterring feeding
  • Blocking the ability to "swallow" (that is, reducing the motility of the gut)
  • Sending metamorphosis awry at various stages
  • Inhibiting the formation of chitin
 

Snype

Active member
Veteran
It has always confused me why some people (like myself) have excellent success using neem oil, either as a foliar spray or as a soil drench to deal with pests, and others don't.
[/LIST]

It's the same with harsh pesticides also. When growers around the world have mites, and they take them lightly and don't take the time to learn their breeding cycle and don't eradicate them in a timely manner or they use light treatments of Neem/pesticide, the mites can build up a resistance to those products and become a super mite.
 

ozzieAI

Well-known member
Veteran
All leaf-eating insects are wiped out as are all insects actually coming into
contact with Neem. This huge array of insecticidal properties of Neem is thought to
be due to it’s adversely effecting the insects hormone system. If that is so then no
insect will be able to become immune, because it’s hormone system is essential for
every bodily function. Most significant, insects develop resistance in each
subsequent generation, and as insects dosed with Neem cannot breed, thus there
are no subsequent generations in which resistance can develop.
(Ref. Australia DPI)

here is a blurb from one of the links posted above that highlights one of the benefits of using neem is no resistance is developed to neem oil...
 

Snype

Active member
Veteran
here is a blurb from one of the links posted above that highlights one of the benefits of using neem is no resistance is developed to neem oil...

Thank you for that! I personally used Neem Oil to get rid of my past spider mite populations and it worked well for me. I'm on the east coast of the USA though. When I talk to growers on the west coast, a lot of them tell me that a lot of spider mites are resistant to Neem Oil. Now I can't tell you if they are correct or not but I am going to go through a bunch of scientific studies to see what they all say about this. We can't base anything off of one specific study and have to do more research to see if there are any studies that exist where spider mite resistance has occurred. If anyone else finds any studies on this topic, please feel free to post it with the reference.
 

ozzieAI

Well-known member
Veteran
thanks for you contribution snype:

When I talk to growers on the west coast, a lot of them tell me that a lot of spider mites are resistant to Neem Oil
if your west coast growers are using hydrophobic neem oil then they will probably not get rid of the SM as they are relying on the oil to smother the mites and not the action of the aza...

http://www.hort.uconn.edu/ipm/homegrnd/htms/neem.htm
As mentioned previously, azadirachtin has a number of different modes of action. It is less likely that insects or pathogens will develop resistance to neem products compared to materials with a single mode of action.
 

Snype

Active member
Veteran
thanks for you contribution snype:


if your west coast growers are using hydrophobic neem oil then they will probably not get rid of the SM as they are relying on the oil to smother the mites and not the action of the aza...

http://www.hort.uconn.edu/ipm/homegrnd/htms/neem.htm

Nice! I use 100% Neem Oil. Maybe you are right. Maybe they are using the other Neem Oil. Keep spreading the word and hopefully the other cannabis growers will throw their poisons away!
 

ozzieAI

Well-known member
Veteran
you hit the nail on the head here: Keep spreading the word and hopefully the other cannabis growers will throw their poisons away!

personally i feel that growing medicine with the use of poisons is counter productive at best...
 

Granger2

Active member
Veteran
Ozzie,
What is the brand of Neem you use? Available in the US? Where? What concentration for a root drench?
 

ozzieAI

Well-known member
Veteran
hey granger, the pure neem oil i use is found here downunder but there are similar products available in the us...dyna gro has a pure neem oil available. i use 5ml/litre that is emulsified to disperse completely in water.

cheers
 

Granger2

Active member
Veteran
Ozzie,
Again, what is the brand you use? Maybe it's available in the US. I don't want pure Neem Oil. I want one with an emulsifier. Thanks. -granger
 

ozzieAI

Well-known member
Veteran
Not at my computer atm.
batphone.com.au
look under wetting agents/adjuvents, from memory
 

Gelado`

Active member
Veteran
If you want an emulsifier I'd use pure castile soap (e.g., Dr Bronner's). Plagron (Dutch company that sells prepackaged pure neem oil for pot growers) says to shake it up in warm water to emulsify it before use.

As for the HNO with Az added back to it that I use: the reason it's sold is because it is much more potent than standard neem oil and has much less odor too. ;) The emulsifier is blended in--you just add a ml or two to a liter and shake it up. Nice product for knocking critters out, but pricey compared to pure neem oil without the growth benefits.
 
L

lemongrove

Thanks for the excellent advice on using Neem Oil. I've battled fungus gnats and could never get the best of them. I hoping this will do the trick.
 
J

johnhinkleyjr

what about azatrol or azamaz? this is the pure extracted toxcin?
 

ozzieAI

Well-known member
Veteran
from what i understand these are the products made via the alcohol extraction process of the pure neem oil...
 
J

johnhinkleyjr

i know but do you see them as effective as they are not neem without the main ingredient rather they are the main active ingredient
 

spence360

Member
I as of now don't necessarily use neem as a soil drench, but I use it as part of buildasoil's IPM spray recipe:
http://buildasoil.com/blogs/news/15904484-ipm-tips-for-preparing-your-spray-solution
http://buildasoil.com/products/complete-ipm-kit

In the soil I use neem/karanja cake 50/50
neem cake in soil is a good organic source of Nitrogen and a good microbial food
It also won't harm earthworms to my knowledge.

I get my neem oil from them, it is pure, cold pressed and imported from India
http://buildasoil.com/products/neem-oil-organic-from-india

not meaning to advertise, just sharing some natural/organic IPM info
I need to be able to PM someone and so am posting around the forums to up my post count
 

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