Off Gassing? Need opinions.

[richyrich]

Opinions needed on the following grow with pictures.

I moved this from another thread.

I had a nice grow going until about 4 weeks into bloom when [(I introduced a grow tent into my bloom room)edited]. I'm not pointing any fingers but I need some consensus before I make my conclusion.

The plants are not in the tent. The tent was added to the bloom room to house mothers. The mothers have some funky problems going on too when they didn't before.

I am running 1000 watters and growing in a medium of canna coco. Hand watering daily with a 25% runoff. The medium dries out quick in two gallon containers. RO water, cal mag added and flora nova bloom. I feed at an EC of 1.3 and my runoff EC has never been over 1.8. I always ph at 5.8-5.9 and i double check my ph meter with a ph drop kit to verify.

The one thing I want to emphasize is that I grow in a completely sealed room. CO2 and AC. I am suspecting that if my tent were to off gas in a sealed room then the gases off gassing would never dissipate from the room. A sealed room is even worse than a room that has ventilation going in and out.

Here is a shot of my set up.



Here is the tent I added to the bloom room and then I noticed the problems.

[I took this picture out. I don't want to put a name on the tent I am using because it's seems as if it will ruffle feathers after reading the entire sticky on off gassing.]

And here are my jacked up plants. They are washed out and fert burned. The growth of the buds is real slow.




I started reading this thread and realized that this off gassing can cause signs of over fertilization. I was under the belief that off gassing only caused magnesium like deficiencies and bleached out looking leaves (N deficiency). Until I read this thread and now I suspect my tent and off gassing. I was blaming myself for over ferting this whole time.

To be honest I don't trust any of these companies products after reading this entire thread.

I will quote the original 1st post in this thread.

"By now some at least reading this post will have at least heard of the Offgassing effect within grow tents being reported throughout the internet. This is a confirmed effect admitted to by at least one manufacturer of these tents, however it is obvious with the amount of problems occurring from various suppliers that more of these tents are affected than is being admitted to by manufacturers.

If you are growing plants in one of these tents that is affected your plants will be displaying signs that you are chasing between over fertilising and nutrient deficiencies in what is a swing of a very small margin. Currently there is two threads at least displaying the signs of the Off gassing problem. The margin from one issue to the other can be very small indeed I have seen plain tap water with the PH set result in the plants displaying a N deficiency and then when .5 ml per litre of Canna Aqua Vega is added to the hydro solution or equivalent Terra product to the the same water for soil mixes within a day the plants display signs of over fertilization and are burned. Even Superthrive at 25% strength caused the plants to burn.

The obvious sign is the washing out or yellowing of the leafs, this has been seen in other pictures to get as bad as to make the leaf look almost white before turning brown. This can occur as early as the first few sets of leafs and has been seen to start within the time the plant reaches three sets of nodes. The main stalk will often not develop fully and along with the branches can be thin and fragile. Roots are also affected both in soil mixes and hydro set-ups and also in both set-ups when cutting down plants they are found to be hollow throughout as the pith refered to in the relating text of the plant cross section below is eroded."

And a quote from I believe [(*)edit] themselves. The only reason I am bringing this up is because my [(*)edit] is made by them.

"Lately, we have had an increasing number of customers and retailers approaching us with questions and concerns about some problems they have heard of with grow boxes. Some were simple problems like the cover material becoming brittle with use or a strange smell to the boxes when they are new (due to outgasing); other problems ranged from weird, complex to some that were a bit frightening like plants yellowing and dying within the grow boxes. Everybody wanted to know if these things could happen with an * as well. The answer is "No."
How can we be so sure? Let me explain.
Our * were on the market for over 3 years before the first imitations appeared. In that time we have not received one single complaint. And, we can assure everyone, that all these problems will definitely not occur with any of our products which are of the highest quality."

Now when I read what is in bold struck me quick because when I opened my [(*)edit] it had a very distinct synthetic type smell when I first opened the box and packaging. So, if they state that these types of smells are due to off gassing as they state in the bold above then is my [(*)edit] off gassing and causing these problems.

And then is my possible problem of off gassing exacerbated by the fact that I bloom in a completely sealed room with no way for possible off gassing to escape creating a higher level of harmful gasses in my room?

Opinions please! And I would like to know if you grow in a sealed room or not with your opinion. I have a feeling that folks who grow in a sealed room will suffer worse affects than the person who grows with full ventilation, therefore, not allowing gasses to build up in a sealed environment.

Forgot to add. Growing SFV OG Kush; using RO water; adding 200 ppms of cal mag; a tad of diamond nectar; flora nova bloom up to a total mix of 650 ppms; run off usually comes out at about 800, +/- 50. Run off has never been over 900 ppms. Ppms using .5 conversion. Pictures above are at 50 days bloom.

 

[Skipload]

I want to say........ not off gassing.

 

[richyrich]

Thanks for the opinion.

Do you grow in a sealed environment with a grow tent?

 

[Kindman69]

I replied to you in the 'off-gassing' thread with a pic of what mine look like. I'm in a sealed co2 enriched environment.

Let me know what you think. I have been blaming myself for the past three grows

 

[Hella Fella]

Theres lotsa funny stuff in\being released from synthetic meterials!

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bisphenol_A

http://www.boston.com/lifestyle/green/greenblog/2009/03/bpa_questions_answered_1.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03/13/AR2009031303507.html

for instance!

We been drinking fluids and feeding our babies and exposing them to this for YEARS now, no studies were done, we didnt realize till 15 years later when weird shit started happening!

Ive also heard stories about ppl having seizures from "new-car smell"


So if THAT can effect humans, i can only ASSUME theres stuff out there that effects plants as well! its only logical..

Why do you need this grow tent? build one of your own! cheaper, u learn things, and you feel accomplished in the end!

 

[richyrich]

I replied to you in the 'off-gassing' thread with a pic of what mine look like. I'm in a sealed co2 enriched environment.

Let me know what you think. I have been blaming myself for the past three grows

I just took a look at your pics. They do share a common resemblance. Anyone looking at our plants would say they are fert burned but the one common denominator is the fact that the plants were healthy until we introduced a product into their sealed environment.

I know what a true fert burn is. I did it a long time ago as a novice and learned how not to anymore. Researching all the off gassing threads show similar pics. The washed out leaves, the Mag. def. and fert burn look.

I should of went with my gut feeling. I was hesitant to put the new tent in my bloom room to house my mothers. I read that all the new tents were fixed now. I am not so sure.

I theorize at this point that they may still off gas in an amount much less than the old bad tents. This may not be noticeable because most growers ventilate their tent with air exchanges; not a CO2 sealed room. If there is the chance that these tents still off gas that little amount then it builds up over time in a sealed room to cause the same problems. I am pretty sure that I will not get many accurate responses because of the fact that most do not grow in a sealed room.

Once I added the tent it didn't just happen over night. It was nearly a week after and that is why I never suspected the tent. I went over every other variable and couldn't find anything wrong. They were perfect, in went the tent and then crap.

 

[Mr. Bongjangles]

You said the medium dries out quick and you're watering daily. You also said the runoff ec is higher than the feed, by a decent amount. That indicates to me the plant is using up a good portion of the water you give it prior to the next feeding, but is not using up the nutrients.

As such, throughout the day the EC in the medium will be steadily creeping higher and higher than what it is when you feed the plant.

1.3 to 1.8 runoff in one day is a big jump. Based on the large amount of runoff, I'd say the actual swing in the medium is quite a bit higher.

So that, imo, is how your plants are burning with the amounts you're using.

The timing you describe makes me think that the plants made a bunch more roots during the stretch period, thus increasing the transpiration and the ratio of roots to medium. Less of a buffer for these problems when the plant is drinking all the water so fast, so from say 2-3 weeks into flowering the medium was getting hot, as least per my theory.

Perhaps try using less water and feeding more often, as most everyone agrees that when handwatering coco, you should not let the medium dry out between watering. People who use small pots often end up watering multiple times per day in the end to keep up.

 

[richyrich]

Thanks for the reply bongjangles.

This is what I have been doing below. The highest my ec has ever been is 1.8. At one point I bumped up the feed for one day. I feed at 1.2-1.3 and the runoff comes out at 1.5-1.7.

Forgot to add. Growing SFV OG Kush; using RO water; adding 200 ppms of cal mag; a tad of diamond nectar; flora nova bloom up to a total mix of 650 ppms; run off usually comes out at about 800, +/- 50. Run off has never been over 900 ppms. Ppms using .5 conversion. Pictures above are at 50 days bloom.

Your opinion is a very viable situation. It is the first thing I suspected after re-reading the entire hand watered coco sticky. I did say the medium dries out quick but I have never let it dry out. I water every day because of that fact. The medium takes about 2.5 days to dry out completely if not watered. I followed the feeding of others in the sticky who just water every day to avoid the fluctuations. They use a low ec to not allow the ferts to build up as I have done with the low ec feeds. I have a lot of run off to push out any build up. The slightly higher ec reading on the run off is expected as the build up is pushed out because I do not flush in between feeds.

Ditching the constant low feed is one of my possible solutions. I may go to feed feed flush feed feed flush... . The first idea is to move the tent some where else. I may never know if it was the tent or not since I will not dare take a chance with the next crop.

 

[Kindman69]

You said the medium dries out quick and you're watering daily. You also said the runoff ec is higher than the feed, by a decent amount. That indicates to me the plant is using up a good portion of the water you give it prior to the next feeding, but is not using up the nutrients.

As such, throughout the day the EC in the medium will be steadily creeping higher and higher than what it is when you feed the plant.

1.3 to 1.8 runoff in one day is a big jump. Based on the large amount of runoff, I'd say the actual swing in the medium is quite a bit higher.

So that, imo, is how your plants are burning with the amounts you're using.

The timing you describe makes me think that the plants made a bunch more roots during the stretch period, thus increasing the transpiration and the ratio of roots to medium. Less of a buffer for these problems when the plant is drinking all the water so fast, so from say 2-3 weeks into flowering the medium was getting hot, as least per my theory.

Perhaps try using less water and feeding more often, as most everyone agrees that when handwatering coco, you should not let the medium dry out between watering. People who use small pots often end up watering multiple times per day in the end to keep up.

The point here is that once they start to be poisoned it changes the way they are taking up nutes as well as water. They are starting to die form poisoning. All bets are off at that point. In my case it took me 3 grows trying pretty much everything else first, before even considering that it may have been the spray glue along with the Mylar and every other damn thing that could possibly off-gas in a completely sealed environment.
I'm with you on the symptoms though, but once you become aware that 'off-gassing' can produce very similar symptoms, and you have tried everything else, well, then we would be fools not to take the 'off-gassing' serious. And like I said I would not stop with the tents I think this goes beyond, as it relates to sealed environments.

Kindman

 

[richyrich]

The point here is that once they start to be poisoned it changes the way they are taking up nutes as well as water. They are starting to die form poisoning. All bets are off at that point. In my case it took me 3 grows trying pretty much everything else first, before even considering that it may have been the spray glue along with the Mylar and every other damn thing that could possibly off-gas in a completely sealed environment.
I'm with you on the symptoms though, but once you become aware that 'off-gassing' can produce very similar symptoms, and you have tried everything else, well, then we would be fools not to take the 'off-gassing' serious. And like I said I would not stop with the tents I think this goes beyond, as it relates to sealed environments.

Kindman

Very well said.

 

[richyrich]

I did a lot more researching on the way I was feeding. From everything I read there should be no problems on a continuous feed program. Lots of coco growers are doing it. Only flushing at the end. I came across this below as to why my ec comes out a little higher on the runoff as I previously stated I expected would be so.

"Leachate (run off) measurement.
This technique requires you to measure the conductivity of the water draining from the plants after irrigation. This is perhaps the most practical method for indoor growers.
First you measure the conductivity of the fresh nutrient solution. After irrigating, measure the conductivity of the leachate (run off). This is the water draining from the bottom of the pot. This should measure about 3CF; 0.3E.C. or about 240ppm higher than the original nutrient solution. If the drainage water conductivity is higher than these guidelines, then you are not irrigating enough and you should increase frequency and volume of irrigation."

My run off has been right in line with this. Now back to the tent as being highly suspect.

 

[Kindman69]

Here is a pic of a soil plant that I currently re-veg. I wanted to make absolutley sure it could not be related to the feed. This is what she looked like after 2 days in the sealed space. Never mind the salad leafs lol, that is normal for a re-vegging plant.

The other 3 pics are of the latest victims, I don't have my new clones ready yet, so I have decided to try to see if they can be brought back lol. Not looking good though, although, they do have a lot of new growth.

 

[Hella Fella]

Ok, nevermind....