Nutrient Lockout or Broad Mite damage?? + video

[GreenGuySF]

Hi Everyone,

Am I dealing with potential Mg/Ca lockout, is this damage from broad mites, or something else completely, what do you guys think???



Over the past weekend I saw interveinal chlorosis start happening.
I thought it was Ca/Mg toxicity so I flushed then watered with the same feed level I've been using before that worked well
Day or 2 later the problem looks even worse so I took pics

I watched this video about broads, the guy says their damage can appear as several other things.
No real new info if you've read up already but a good basic introduction to the species
http://www.greenhousegrower.com/video/489

 

[MynameStitch]

hi can u tell us more about your grow?

SOIL:


How long has this problem been going on?
What STRAIN are you growing?
What was the establishing technique? (seed or clone?)
What is the age of your plants?
How long have they been in the soil mixture they are in now?
Were they in the same mixture when they were seedlings/smaller plant? If not, what mixture were they in before?
How Tall are the plants?
What PHASE (seedling, vegetative or flower) are the plants in?
What Technique are you using? (SOG, SCROG etc)
What size pots are you using? (Include how many subjects to pot)
What substrate/medium are you using? What brand of soil mixture are you using?(percentage of perlite, vermiculite...etc?)
What brand Nutrient's are you using?
How much of each nutrient are you using with how much water? *Knowing the brand is very helpful*
How often are you feeding?
If flowering, when did you switch over to using Bloom nutrients?
What order are you mixing your nutrients? (example: veg nutes 1st, bloom 2nd ect)
What is the TDS/EC/PPM of your nutrients used?
What is the pH of the "RUN-OFF"?
How often are you testing pH/ppm/EC/TDS?
What method of pH test was administered? Using Strips? pH pen?
How often are you watering?
When was your last feeding and how often are you feeding?
What size bulb are you using?
How old is your bulbs?
What is the distance to the canopy?
What is your RH Factor? (Relative Humidity)
What is the canopy temperature?
What is the Day/Night Temp? (Include fluctuation range)
What is the current Air Flow? (cfm etc.)
Tell us about your ventilation, intake exhaust and when its running and not running ?
Is the fan blowing directly at plants?
Is the grow substrate constantly wet or moist?
Is your water HARD or SOFT?
What water are you using? Reverse Osmosis (RO)? Tap? Bottled? Well water? Distilled? Mineral Water?
If using tap water, what is the ppm/EC/TDS of the water right out of the tap?(Only if you have a tds pen)
If using RO,Distilled,mineral water, what is the ppm/EC/TDS without any additives?(Only if you have a tds pen)
Are you using water from a water softener?
Has plant been recently pruned, cloned or pinched?
Have any pest chemicals been used? If so what and when?
Are plant's infected with pest's?


HYDROPONICS/Aero Ponics/Coco/Soiless/

How long has this problem been going on?
Are you growing in a PVC grow tent? (example: Hydrohut or any other non brand tents)
What system are you running? (DWC? Ebb flow? Aero? Water Farm? Flood Tables? and so on...)
What STRAIN are you growing?
What was the establishing technique? (Were the seed or clone?)
What is the age of your plants?
How long have they been in there mixture they are in now?(coco,soiless etc..)
How tall are the plants?
What PHASE are the plants in? (seedling, vegetative or flower) are the plants in?
What Technique are you using?
What substrate/medium are you using?(Hydroton, RockWool etc.)
What is the Water temperature?
What color are your roots? White? Brown? Are your roots slimy?
What Nutrient's are you using?(If growing soiless)
How much of each nutrient are you using with how much water? *Knowing the brand is very helpful*
How often are you feeding? (If using soiless)
How often are you giving nutrients? (If using soiless)
If flowering, when did you switch over to using Bloom nutrients?
What order are you mixing your nutrients? (example: veg nutes 1st, bloom 2nd ect)
What is the TDS/EC/PPM you are using
What is the pH of the "Tank"?
How often are you testing your pH/PPM/EC/TDS?
Are you sure your calibration is correct on your equipment?
When was your last watering?
What is your water temps?
When was your last feeding change? (ie. grow-bloom-micro-additional)
How often do you clean your system: example: Flush out water replace with clean water and nutrients?
What size bulb are you using?
How old is the bulbs you are using?
What is the distance to the canopy?
What is your RH Factor(Relative Humidity)?
What is the canopy temperature?
What is the Day/Night Temp? (Include flucutaion range)
What is the current Air Flow? (cfm etc.)
Tell us about your ventilation, intake exhaust and when its running and not running ?
Is the fan blowing directly at plants?
Is your water HARD or SOFT?
What water are you using? Reverse Osmosis (RO)? Tap? Bottled? Well water? Distilled? Mineral Water?
If using tap water, what is the ppm/EC/TDS of the water right out of the tap?
If using RO,Distilled,mineral water, what is the ppm/EC/TDS without any additives?
Are you using water from a water softener?
Has plant been recently pruned, cloned off of or pinched
Have any pest chemicals been used? If so, What and When?
Are plant's infected with pest's

 

[eric2028]

imo those leaves don't have broadmite damage. from my experience damage is usually on new grow.

 

[GreenGuySF]

Thanks!! Here are my survey answers.
Let me know if you need any additional information.
Since first posting this, the bad interveinal chlorosis has spread to more leaves.
Should I do another flush again and feed with even weaker nute mix?
I'm surprised because this exact formula worked fine for me last time.
Anyway is the info:

How long has this problem been going on?
----4-5 days ago I started seeing interveinal chlorosis happening, pics were from yesterday

Are you growing in a PVC grow tent? (example: Hydrohut or any other non brand tents)
----Not in a grow tent.

What system are you running? (DWC? Ebb flow? Aero? Water Farm? Flood Tables? and so on...)
----I use drip, but in this small phase I hand-water

What STRAIN are you growing?
----Grand Tahoe OG from Harborside in Oakland, CA earlier in the year

What was the establishing technique? (Were the seed or clone?)
----I bought a cutting created a mom then took cuttings of it for my last 2 rounds.

What is the age of your plants?
----Current cycle age is around 1 month rooting

How long have they been in there mixture they are in now?(coco,soiless etc..)
----Around 1 month. The mix is 100% coco

How tall are the plants?
----Plants are 12-18" at this point.

What PHASE are the plants in? (seedling, vegetative or flower) are the plants in?
----Vegetative.

What Technique are you using?
----I am not sure what technique refers to here.

What substrate/medium are you using?(Hydroton, RockWool etc.)
----100% canna coco

What is the Water temperature?
----Room temperature

What color are your roots? White? Brown? Are your roots slimy?
----White/Off white, slightly smaller than 100% healthy roots

What Nutrient's are you using?(If growing soiless)
---House & Garded Coco A/B, CalMag, Liquid Karma, MultiZen, Root Excelurator, Drip clear, aspirin

How much of each nutrient are you using with how much water? *Knowing the brand is very helpful*
-Per gal of water:
-10ml A/B
-7ml Cal/Mag
-4ml Lquid Karma & Multi Zen
-.5ml Drip Clear
-1 325mg pill aspirin

How often are you feeding? (If using soiless)
---Usually every day or so whenever the pot feels "light"

How often are you giving nutrients? (If using soiless)
---Nutrients given in every watering

If flowering, when did you switch over to using Bloom nutrients?
----Not flowering.

What order are you mixing your nutrients? (example: veg nutes 1st, bloom 2nd ect)
----A/B, then other additives.

What is the TDS/EC/PPM you are using
----EC 1.8-2.2

What is the pH of the "Tank"?
----pH not measured or changed.

How often are you testing your pH/PPM/EC/TDS?
----Calibrated once a few years ago.

Are you sure your calibration is correct on your equipment?
----It gives the same reading for mixes as ever, so I think it's ok.

When was your last watering?
----Earlier today

What is your water temps?
----Room temps

When was your last feeding change? (ie. grow-bloom-micro-additional)
----Feed is mostly consistent as ever. Liq. Karma & Multi Zen not added everytime, only every 2-3 feeds.

How often do you clean your system: example: Flush out water replace with clean water and nutrients?
---Few days before I posted this I flushed everything good then rewatered with the same nute strength has worked for me before.

What size bulb are you using?
---750W

How old is the bulbs you are using?
---Bulbs unfortunately are couple years old.

What is the distance to the canopy?
----more than 3 feet away

What is your RH Factor(Relative Humidity)?
----Usually around 45-50% lately, occassionally up to 60-70%

What is the canopy temperature?
----82 degrees

What is the Day/Night Temp? (Include flucutaion range)
---Day is low 80s, gets down to around 75 at night sometimes 71-72

What is the current Air Flow? (cfm etc.)
----ONly airflow is from circ fans, 4 large ones.

Tell us about your ventilation, intake exhaust and when its running and not running ?
----Ventilation is never on, the room is cooled with mini split and the hoods are exhaused with a 6" fan

Is the fan blowing directly at plants?
---Circ fan yes

Is your water HARD or SOFT?
---Water is 0 EC, close to water treatment plant & almost no particulates in it

What water are you using? Reverse Osmosis (RO)? Tap? Bottled? Well water? Distilled? Mineral Water?
---Tap water

If using tap water, what is the ppm/EC/TDS of the water right out of the tap?
----from tap EC0

If using RO,Distilled,mineral water, what is the ppm/EC/TDS without any additives?
----N/a

Are you using water from a water softener?
----No

Has plant been recently pruned, cloned off of or pinched
---I topped them a few weeks back, have pruned bottom branches on some recently.

Have any pest chemicals been used? If so, What and When?
---Not on this round, unless you consider Mighty Wash a chemical - that was used when rooting in cubes.

Are plant's infected with pest's
----I had broad mites last round, can't find them but starting to see potential damage, hence the title of this post.
So basically the answer is "most likely yes".

 

[MynameStitch]

I would not be feeding that everyday, your lants need some time to have just plain water and a good flush removes excessive salt build up the plant does not use. You had a lockout which was locking out magnesium, when you get too much of a certain nutrient you lock out micronutrients, magnesium is the issue here, it's being locked out. what is your ppms of your tap water...... alsowhat is the pH of your tap water before adding nutes.?

I need to know this because with you feeding everyday your pH and ppm from your run off is going to be most likely high because excessive buildup..... what is the ppm and pH of the run off?
if your tap water has high pH your going to have to switch becaue your in coco need lower pH around 5.5 to 6.3..... also hard water exsessive will case lockout of nutes..... you most likely having lockout from exsessive soil. reason why they looked worse after flush is because you washed out a lot of nutes from the flush, what little it could absorb cant because of a flush now..... but first how much did you flush//..... a good flush is important to make sure there are no more buildup......

 

[gh0stm0de]

you need to back off the nutes good news is thats easy to do, it's not mites, be very thankful. i'm not kidding take a minute and say thank god this was an easy solution and not going to cost exxtra $$ etc..

 

[GeorgeSmiley]

Couple things first glance

First off aspirin is an acid and it drops the ph so if youre not measuring ph that could be something to look at. Also, dont know if it makes a difference but that seems like a shit ton of cal mag. At 10ml A/B that's somewhere around 120ppm of calcium starting off. And you're adding 7ml/gal, cal/mag which is another 60ppm. I've always read to shoot for 80-100 ppm calcium, you're nearly double that. As the dose of A/B rises the amount of supplemental cal/mag needed drops.

I use 5ml cal/mag+ or 3ml for calimagic in my zero ppm water, I prefer calimagic after having 3rd bottle of cal/mag gone bad/cloudy.

Hope you get it sorted out

GS

 

[gh0stm0de]

on the second picture, do you notice the beginning of burn creeping in there at the leaf tips? look to this in the future as a good indicator as to whether or not you may be giving too much nutes.

 

[GreenGuySF]

Couple things first glance

First off aspirin is an acid and it drops the ph so if youre not measuring ph that could be something to look at. Also, dont know if it makes a difference but that seems like a shit ton of cal mag. At 10ml A/B that's somewhere around 120ppm of calcium starting off. And you're adding 7ml/gal, cal/mag which is another 60ppm. I've always read to shoot for 80-100 ppm calcium, you're nearly double that. As the dose of A/B rises the amount of supplemental cal/mag needed drops.

I use 5ml cal/mag+ or 3ml for calimagic in my zero ppm water, I prefer calimagic after having 3rd bottle of cal/mag gone bad/cloudy.

Hope you get it sorted out

GS

George, thanks for your reply! I have a few questions:

1. Can you recommend a decent pH meter? I have one, but if fluctuates wildly, I ran out of the calibration fluid.
It was really cheap I think $20 so probably not worthy for serious use

2. How did you derive the ppm values? I know 1mg/L=1ppm, but after that I'm lost how to determine what my ppm's consist of, from the labels on the bottles.

I dropped my nutes to the following per gal and new growth looks good. I also stopped adding aspirin since I can't reliably test pH.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]-7.5ml A/B[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] -5ml Cal/Mag[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] -4ml Lquid Karma & Multi Zen[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] -.5ml Drip Clear[/FONT]

the leaves are real pale however, so I just sprayed foliar nitrozime to hopefully green things up.

Also: thanks for that explanation of the relationship of A+B plus calmag. Makes perfect sense. For some reason I always thought it had to be same ratios, meaning if more A+B then more calmag to keep ratios the same.

If you can recommend any stickie threads or good URLs to read up on hydroponic nutrition & ppms, etc that would be awesome!

Have a great day

 

[GreenGuySF]

you need to back off the nutes good news is thats easy to do, it's not mites, be very thankful. i'm not kidding take a minute and say thank god this was an easy solution and not going to cost exxtra $$ etc..

Ghost - trust me I know! I had them my last round, so I'm deathly paranoid they're still around, because everyone says they're impossible to get rid of
I read that their damage can appear to be a myriad of different things, that's why I posted this to try and get clear.
Although that article I read that in was talking about greenhouse plants in general, not just cannabis.

Thanks!

 

[GreenGuySF]

what is your ppms of your tap water......
alsowhat is the pH of your tap water before adding nutes.?
what is the ppm and pH of the run off?

Stitch, I'm close to the water plant and have zero ppm tap water.
I don't know the pH - never tested or had to - but another poster mentioned aspirin which was most likley acidifying, so if anything pH was too low not too high.
I flushed down to 800ppm right when I posted this.
Now the new growth seems good, meaning, not showing toxicity issues, but it is also very pale.

I asked just a couple posts up, but can you recommend a decent pH meter for not too much bread?
I'm thinking I'll need one around now.
THANKS!

 

[GreenGuySF]

reason why they looked worse after flush is because you washed out a lot of nutes from the flush, what little it could absorb cant because of a flush now..... but first how much did you flush//..... a good flush is important to make sure there are no more buildup......

You kind of lost me on this paragraph, if you can explain a bit more I'd appreciate it.
I was under the impression a flush could never hurt things.
THANKS!

 

[gh0stm0de]

yes man heres a good solid hanna meter I don't use it now but have, http://www.plantlightinghydroponics.com/hanna-grochek-phep4-phtemperature-tester-p-435.html

the same site has a milwaukee for 25 less, i use an oakton and highly recommend oakton ph1 or ph2 (ph2 factors water temp into ph reading, I liked that but mine stopped working for reasons unknown and my old oakton ph1 is rocking just fine)

if you can afford it pay the 50+ for a waterproof pen - accidentally dropping a non proof pen in water will usually destroy it.

if you wanna save bucks go snag a 20-25 bootleg unit off ebay i've kept em alive for yrs but truth told i highly recommend the waterproof oakton, hanna, or milwaukee