Nutrient burn? help!

[funk_buddha]

Hey all, got a bit of a sick plant on my hands.

Just a simple 3.5L dwc in a styrofoam cooler (for meat or something i think?) and an aquarium airstone in the bottom. Seeds were started in rockwool and moved into small pots filled with perlite, 4 or 5 days apart. One was then moved directly into the dwc, while the other was hand watered for a couple days before it was moved in. The one put directly in the dwc is the sick one, the other looks fine, but not exceptional like its parents for 2 generations have. It has been about 2 weeks now in the perlite.. give or take up to a week.

General hydroponic nutrients 3-1-3 from my hydro store.
I put 2 teaspoons in 3.5L of water, and corrected the ph with 10 or 15 drops of pH down. The pH is now a little above 6.

It's a feminized seedling from an outdoor very minorly herm plant from last season.

It looks overall sickly though its growing as fast as another identical seedling in the same reservoir.

The problem is obvious, but there is also some discolouration at the top and slight reddening or purpling that isn't very clear in the pictures.

In the last couple days (after the pictures were taken) the roots have started going from perfectly white to slightly yellow. The second plant still has nice roots, but they're smaller because the first plant has been in the reservoir a week longer.

I've already dumped out the whole reservoir and replaced it with a weaker solution, maybe that will fix it up.

I also tried running water through the rockwool and perlite for a little while to remove whatever I could.















The last picture is of 2 lowryder males that were in the cooler before these ones.

 

[sproutco]

I did the math and your not really using too much ferts. Ph ok. They will recover when they gain more roots. Add some prevention for root rot. 1 teaspoon(5ml) per gallon (3.8L) 3% hydrogen peroxide from the drug store on a daily basis or double this rate if you are only going to add it 2 to 3 times a week.

 

[Guest]

Im with sproutco on the nutes. But, Im leaning more towards a ph problem. Does your ph drift almost a point in a day? Hey sproutco dont you think thats a little to much h2o2? And I dont mean the ratio I mean I was always told if you use h2o2 you should drain your water after a day or two and replace with fresh water.

 

[sproutco]

You don't need to drain your rez or anything using h2o2. It breaks down on its own once mixed.

 

[Guest]

I was not aware of that. I wonder who told me that crap then.

 

[Verite]

Imo a soiless ph over 6 is too much. Hydro ranges are 5.5 up to the high point of 6.0. Over 6.0 is not going to be that close to the sweet spot. What are you using to test ph?

 

[funk_buddha]

It continued to get worse today, while the other plant is unaffected still, and looking fairly nice i might add.
I think the problem probably started before or at the same time as i added the second seedling to the res, but maybe whatever it was has changed since then and the plant is actually in recovery? That would explain why the other one looks nice and healthy

I use an aquarium tester from a pet store, not electronic or anything. The pH hovers around 6, but is usually above. I'm kindof afraid of adding too much pH down because i dont know about it it and i really dont know how much it affects the ph, i get scared after i put about 10 drops in, usually around 15 i stop.

I've got "no-damp" already, can I use that in my res?

I think I'll add a teaspoon then start adding a half teaspoon of h2o2 to the res daily. Will it affect the ph any?

 

[sproutco]

Using 2 teaspoons 3-1-3 per 3.5 Liters gives you this: (approximate ppm's)

n 86
p 12
k 71

Normal range for p is about 30 to 50. You got 12. If your ph down is phosphoric acid that would be great. Your adding more p you need. This may not be a good thing if you already had enough p. Then, sulfuric acid might be the better choice.

Nitrogen is at 86. Your aiming for about 100 for small plants like this. So I don't think your using too much.

Potassium is low. You should have double this.

If you increase your 3-1-3 ferts to add more p and k, you will have to raise n which you don't want yet. A solution would be to add a pk product like pk 13/14, botanicare hydroplex, or the raw salt monopotassium phosphate.

I found the numbers for the hydroplex:

5ml hydroplex per 3.8 liters = p 23 and k 108

If you add 1/2 strength ...54 more k and 12 more p with the hydroplex, you would use 2.3 ml per 3.5 liters. (notice not a gallon/3.8 L).

-or-

1/4 teaspoon (1.25ml) monopotassium phosphate (KH2PO4) per gallon (3.8L) of water = 73 ppm phosphorus and 88 ppm potassium. You only need to use an 1/8 teaspoon per 3.5 liters.

Only problem doing this pk boost is you upset the potassium to calcium to magnesium ratio. You need to add about 30 ca and 15 mg to pk boost. You could add 1/8 teaspoon epsom salts and powdered gypsum to do this. An alternative would be to use 3.5 ml cal mag plus per 3.5 liters. This raises n to about 105 ppm. Remember we wanted about 100 n anyway.

If you make these additions, the nutrient solution is close to Johnson's nutrient solution at the University of California at Davis.

No damp does not control pythium or phytophthora. These are the water molds. I am under the impression that this is used on soil mixes anyway but I am not sure. The hydrogen peroxide is non selective so it controls all pathogens...both bacteria and fungus.

Hydrgen peroxide should not affect ph at all.

Use 1 teaspoon h2o2 per 3.8 liters daily. This won't harm the plant and can actually increase the amount of oxygen in your water.

 

[agro]

d'ont forget to flush with water only every week for 24 hours is the best way to prevent any nuts block up or overfertilization.Also the h2o2 you can go until 3ml/per litre,but after 3 or 4 days you have to add more h2o2 because the molecule is so unstable that loose his power.whatever you do.. wait allways 3 days to see plants reaction.Another rule..allways do double check of ph ,once i had my meter out of range and almost ruinate everthing .

keep on

 

[Verite]

Imo there isnt much life to save in those. Soiless needs better control of the ph than your aquarium stuff can deliver. If you really want to save those plants I would consider getting them into a more aqaurium ph tester friendly medium like soil.

 

[sproutco]

It's a feminized seedling from an outdoor very minorly herm plant from last season.

I missed this the first time. Expect balls. Save that nutrient recipe.

 

[Guest]

Throw sproutco's nute recipe in the trash. Get some soil as verite said there is not much of them left to save. Do this quick!

 

[funk_buddha]

wow this just got a whole lot more complicated than i expected it to..

My pH down is sulphuric acid, where might i find phosphoric acid? Is the perlite what is causing my ph to constantly increase?

I'm growing in soil at the same time anyways, this is just an experiment to see if i can do it, its the first time i've tried.

There aren't any pictures of the second plant posted. It is perfectly healthy, no problems whatsoever with it.. i'm not about to throw this out in exchange for more dirt, which i have plenty of. If anything, i'll let them die in the reservoir and start up some more until i get it right... no shortage of beans or time or interest (as an intentional result of males, not herms).

I think i'll just start replacing the res water more often, i think it had been a really long time since i changed it actually, it looked fairly gross.

I do expect balls, and i'm looking forward to it. One of the first 4 plants I grew indoors pollinated itself (tiny tiny plant, gorgeous smoke though <45 watts flouro) i got a total of 4 seeds from it. I grew one of these seeds outdoors and it got about 6 feet tall, with still only a dozen seeds i found.. now i'm growing those, its a 3rd generation herm, but all its parents have been chronic as fuck and not particularly seedy so i dont really care.

I suspect the seeds i originally bought (bagseed) were feminized because i didn't get a single male out of all of them, but it doesn't bother me because i have less than 12 plants at all times, and normally only 2 flowering.. then the seeds i get are fem and i know their lineage.

Honestly i would think that the aquarium stuff would be enough.. its designed for fish who are probably alot less tolerant of this kind of stuff than plants. Besides, i'm not planning on making any kind of investment over $15, so this is as good as i think i can get.

The next round (after these ones die... which aparently you're all convinced they will soon) i'm using rockwool, with the same basic principles. A purple skunk clone's roots are excaping from a cube as we speak.

 

[funk_buddha]

I removed the perlite from the system, I think it was for the best.

I pulled out the whole root mass from the pot and rinsed off the perlite, then cut a hole in the bottom of the pot with a place for the rockwool to sit and put the roots back through. Then I took some extra rockwool scrap and filled in the space around the cube.

I removed the sick plant from the res, i guess i have to kill it unfortunately.

The new clone is in a larger cube that was split into quarters, i ripped rockwool off around the bottom so it would sit in a hole in a margarine container lid. Then i put the lid on the hole that the other seedlings pot had been in.

How does rockwool affect the pH?

Thanks for the help so far.

 

[sproutco]

Sulfuric acid is ok.

Perlite will have a ph sometimes over 7. You might try leaching it before use with acidic water. This also removes fluoride that it contains and can be toxic to plants.

Try the recipe with the p and k boost.

As long as you accept the fact that your plants could hermie even under ideal conditions, go for it.

 

[Guest]

wow this just got a whole lot more complicated than i expected it to..

My pH down is sulphuric acid, where might i find phosphoric acid? Is the perlite what is causing my ph to constantly increase?

I'm growing in soil at the same time anyways, this is just an experiment to see if i can do it, its the first time i've tried.

There aren't any pictures of the second plant posted. It is perfectly healthy, no problems whatsoever with it.. i'm not about to throw this out in exchange for more dirt, which i have plenty of. If anything, i'll let them die in the reservoir and start up some more until i get it right... no shortage of beans or time or interest (as an intentional result of males, not herms).

I think i'll just start replacing the res water more often, i think it had been a really long time since i changed it actually, it looked fairly gross.

I do expect balls, and i'm looking forward to it. One of the first 4 plants I grew indoors pollinated itself (tiny tiny plant, gorgeous smoke though <45 watts flouro) i got a total of 4 seeds from it. I grew one of these seeds outdoors and it got about 6 feet tall, with still only a dozen seeds i found.. now i'm growing those, its a 3rd generation herm, but all its parents have been chronic as fuck and not particularly seedy so i dont really care.

I suspect the seeds i originally bought (bagseed) were feminized because i didn't get a single male out of all of them, but it doesn't bother me because i have less than 12 plants at all times, and normally only 2 flowering.. then the seeds i get are fem and i know their lineage.

Honestly i would think that the aquarium stuff would be enough.. its designed for fish who are probably alot less tolerant of this kind of stuff than plants. Besides, i'm not planning on making any kind of investment over $15, so this is as good as i think i can get.

The next round (after these ones die... which aparently you're all convinced they will soon) i'm using rockwool, with the same basic principles. A purple skunk clone's roots are excaping from a cube as we speak.

phosphoric acid is used in General hydroponics ph up/down. Its better for the plants than sulfuric acid.

 

[funk_buddha]

Alright, so i'm likely to find it at the same kind of place i found my pH down the first time?

I expect and accept that i'll get herms (and lets face it, they were probably going to get pretty stressed already from my inexperience anyways).

 

[Guest]

If the place you got your stuff carries Gereral hydroponics brand nutrients then I dont see why not. Was it a hydroponic store you got your stuff from? cause thats who carries it.

 

[Fonzie]

whatever you do.. wait allways 3 days to see plants reaction.Another rule..allways do double check of ph ,once i had my meter out of range and almost ruinate everthing .

keep on

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What he said
twice

yeah boy!

 

[funk_buddha]

I've got that schultz 10-15-10 liquid fertilizer (7 drops a litre? [soil] its basically in every store.. i'm sure you know what i'm talking about). Can i use this to supplement the nutrients of my other solution? I added 5 or 6 drops to my res (3.5 litres) we'll see what happens.

My very first attempt at soilless i had lowryders in perlite that i soaked by hand and they were fed nothing but this 10-15-10 solution and they were fine for the first 3 weeks of their lives (in fact, healthier looking than the styrofoam plants) but i had to kill them after they turned male.

The originally healthy plant has started to yellow at the top and generally seems a little queasy at all times.. i hope i can turn it around so i dont need to start another batch.

The skunk clone has grown quite a bit, but hasn't reached the water level yet.