No Pampered Poodles

[Bass Akwards]

A few notes for new growers who might be tempted to spin their wheels trying to make everything "perfect" for their "babies".

In the first place, they are plants, not babies.

Secondly, perfection can be counterproductive if you want to maximize potency, so don't try too hard to achieve it.

One particular line of BS has been plastered all over net for years: "the plants genetic potential".

If you do somehow manage to make everything in the growing environment "perfect", for any particular strain, you might get a bigger plant, with larger yield, but it won't be any "stronger", or taste any "better". The highest "potential" can only be achieved through stress, that is, growing in a less than "perfect" situation.

The plain truth of the matter is that almost Any non-hemp/non-Ruderius cannabis plant will get you stoned if it's not allowed to fruit. In fact, most seeded reefer is just fine to smoke. Don't get suckered in to trying to grow an exotic "poodle" of a strain that has to be "dialed in". That just means that it has to be coddled and pampered and is rarely worth the time or trouble.

Here's a piece of scientific research, decades old, that explains exactly what it takes to make Any strain stronger.

Economic Botany, Vol. 27 , No. 2 (Apr., 1973) pp. 193-203

The link is a pay site, but the short description of the research tells most of the story.

http://www.springerlink.com/content/2112n1474q342243/

Abstract
Data from 101 naturalized stands ofCannabis in east-central Illinois indicate that production of Δ1(6)-THC, Δ1-THC, cannabinol and cannabidiol was determined, to a large extent, by environmental conditions of the site where plants are grown. It is assumed that these stands represented a relatively homogeneous genetic population. Δ1-THC was under the strongest environmental control. In general, content of these compounds was higher in marihuana from stands where plants were stressed. Two types of stress were suggested by the data: nutrient deficiency and inadequate moisture. Competition from other plants enhanced the content of the drug compounds, and this relationship strengthens the stress hypothesis. Work is underway to confirm this relationship.
Chemical analyses of marihuana samples were provided by the National Institute of Mental Health

( The only significant variable not covered in this study was the intensity of UV light. )

So ... grow what you can, enjoy it, but don't get hung up in "perfection". Some of the strongest plants are quite small, and don't look impressive.

 

[jm420]

I'll take my dialed in weed up against a stressed plant any day,a dailed in grow will out produce,out preform and out smoke the same strain in less than optimal conditions.I beleive every new grower should educate themselvrs with enviormental factors(dialed in).Dollars to doughnuts there is probably better info here from ezperianced growers that would prove the study wrong=why pay for info that you can get here for free?A good place to start for a newb is Blunt 69 "s thread on somthing every f****** noob should know.

 

[Ursus]

it jingles with some sense... interesting concept I'll give a try. It's like making a "tougher" plant. Whatever doesn't kill it makes it stronger. I'm ringing with optimism and the fellow above shouldn't be quick to judge.

 

[ibjamming]

I saw this in another thread and it seems to make sense. A lot of "legends" are based on fact. People always swear by letting 'em dry out really good and many people swear by a good long starvation period at the end of flower.

I've been doing the flush...and now I may make them beg for water too...the last two weeks of their lives.

I like to see evidence of WHY I'm doing something.

Thanks!

 

[jm420]

I agree with making a tougher plant,but I dont agree with stressing aplant as a way to do this .Maybe in veg, I scrog and that will toughen a plant up,I cant see any reason to stress a plant in flower and thats wher a dialed in enviorment is gonna make a diffrence.Treat them like a bitch in veg,like a queen in flower

 

[B.C.]

I dunno man, I've been purdy happy with "the genetic potential" and bringing that out in happy plants. There's no lack of punch anyway.

Also, I've never had ta really baby anything. Having all the proper criteria met fer them ta be happy has made it a breeze.

Slow growin mutants are the only thing I've ever coddled. No More! life's too short.

BC

 

[*mistress*]

The highest "potential" can only be achieved through stress, that is, growing in a less than "perfect" situation.

krusty:

Stress
When I first started this document it was going to be step-by-step type of
format, but I must open up more and talk about the important degrees of
growing in various methods due to people's own environments and/or
limitations.
When a plant stresses it is a electrical/chemical dysfunction in the system
as in all things, which will cause ethylene to start at the cellular level
of the plant. Other then the stress from aging most stress causes can be
corrected by the grower. I find that in most cases it is the style/system
that causes stress and with that said here are the degrees of stress that we
can focus on.

1. Root Structure. Without proper root structure the plant cannot absorb
water/nutrients properly and even thou roots have the ability to rebuild
themselves unless there conditions are allowing them to work properly
repairing will either never happen or too much energy will be taken up for
repairs and this will effect the rest of the plant, which will effect the final product.

2. Improper Lighting. This has many degrees, first off not enough light,
this can be from the light being too far away or the light simply doesn't
have enough lumens. Light cycles are also a problem.

3. Environmental. Temperatures, humidity, CO2 are the basics.

4. Disease and Predators. I find that under a stress-free environment plants
own built in immune system and growth structure will overcome any disease I
have had the unfortunate experience of dealing with and that once the plant
has established itself it will out grow any predator. I find predators to
only be a problem in the beginning, clones need to be clean, but once the
plant is growing 3 inches per day predators cannot keep up to the growth of
the plant under a stress-free environment.

5. Nutrients. This is a little trickier because there is so many products
out there and most of them do not work well with each other. Also it is how
the nutrients are given to the plants, pH levels, PPM levels, toxins and
temperature of the nutrients all need to be kept within boundaries.
There are other factors but I will try to stick to the ones I know enough
about to add to peoples current and/or future endeavors. One must realize
that all these degrees of stress work with, against each other and the true
art of growing is trying to balance everything and sometimes this means
setting precedence with one over the other.

Now I will go into more depth of each of the stress degrees, but remember
one person makes this document and it is my experience that determines the
boundaries I set for my techniques of growing. I have in the past read thru
books and articles and I admit there was correct information but I found a
lot of it to be misleading and incorrect, or at the very least incorrectly
given. For example most books, articles I have read try to show people how
to fix problems after they have happened, this is there biggest flaw. It is
more important to teach people how to grow properly with a stress-free
environment then to suggest products and/or techniques to aid the stressful
situation. I find most products to be less then honorable and most
techniques to be less then intelligent. Common sense is by far the most
important thing to remember once you have a problem existing in your system.

 

[Bass Akwards]

Well Intentioned Jibby-Talk

Well Intentioned Jibby-Talk

The Krusty reprint posted above was probably written with the best of intentions. Unfortunately, there's nothing there that gives the slightest indication that it's anything more than an amateur's personal opinion. The scientific value is virtually nil.

We reiterate, for any who might have missed the point:

"If you do somehow manage to make everything in the growing environment "perfect", for any particular strain, you might get a bigger plant, with larger yield, but it won't be any "stronger", or taste any "better". The highest "potential" can only be achieved through stress, that is, growing in a less than "perfect" situation."

Krusty says:

"When a plant stresses it is a electrical/chemical dysfunction in the system ... "

That statement is essentially meaningless. Does stress cause this "disfunction", or is just the effect? Pretzel logic.

"as in all things" ... Huh? That's simplistic jibby-talk.

"which will cause ethylene to start at the cellular level of the plant."

So what? No explanation at all of what ethylene is, much less it's function at the cellular level of the plant, or Any plant for that matter.

Newbies get enough confusing messages already. There's no need to make it worse by insisting that they seek "perfection" in their grow.

The probable reason for Mr. Krusty's perfection fetish is that he's a hydro grower, and the supposed inventor of the "Krusty Bucket" technique. Hydro is a very unforgiving method, easy to screw up, and expensive to run, even if "dialed in".

Please don't get in a huff about the cost of hydro nutes vs. the cost of purchasing weed. Soil growing is easier, by far, to learn, requires minimal equipment, is less expensive and much more forgiving of errors.

Hydro can certainly grow fast, and is less likely to support insect pests, but new growers are better off not being chained to the hydro store, and the dizzying array of "supplements", "boosters" and "hogwash" they sell.

 

[jm420]

I don't know if I would call *Mistress* an amateur,she's got a little more rep than you.BTW hydro easy as pie lucas works fine for any grower .add what you want, if you want ,when you want ,if thats your thing but straight lucas is basically a jump start into nutes and where yourself as a grower can take it to whatever level you want.Learn as you go but a little micro, little bloom ,water,air,and lights .Your good to go but come flower be as "dialed in" as you close as you can .Water or soil for that matter
Do you buy a car on the hogwash they tell you?Or do you buy the stressed out one?

 

[*mistress*]

The Krusty reprint posted above was probably written with the best of intentions. Unfortunately, there's nothing there that gives the slightest indication that it's anything more than an amateur's personal opinion. The scientific value is virtually nil.

science is experience... the clown maybe was/was not amateur. was not amatuer w/ buckets...teehee.

We reiterate, for any who might have missed the point:

"If you do somehow manage to make everything in the growing environment "perfect", for any particular strain, you might get a bigger plant, with larger yield, but it won't be any "stronger", or taste any "better". The highest "potential" can only be achieved through stress, that is, growing in a less than "perfect" situation."

"stronger" , "potential", "perfect"... the 1st & 3rd are non-scientific terms. "potential" is relativ...

the genotype of the cultivar influences the final outcome, most.... but, ther terrior also affects the fruit. that includes taste & no smaller degree, effect. fruit grown in coco may taste different than fruit grown in soil, or in lava rox... nutrient uptake during the season also affects taste & effect. environmental conditions (temps) also effect fruit.

"The highest "potential" can only be achieved through stress"
... is this scientific approach?... all other input variables eliminated? double-blind tests? side-by-side-by-control?

"only" is fairly broad term...most organisms on planet earth that survive & carry on the species have favorable diets, environmental conditions, & low "stress"... this is why animals migrate - from stressful conditions to less stressful conditions, generally.

...very few organisms actively seek "stress", or to be dis-"stress"-ed, by lack of food, the climate they are adapted to, etc... birds do not fly to colder climates for winter, actively seeking to have less food, in order to "better" the species...

Krusty says:

"When a plant stresses it is a electrical/chemical dysfunction in the system ... "

That statement is essentially meaningless. Does stress cause this "disfunction", or is just the effect? Pretzel logic.

dysfunction can be caused by stress... stress can also cause dysfunction... either/or, both should be avoided.

"which will cause ethylene to start at the cellular level of the plant."

So what? No explanation at all of what ethylene is, much less it's function at the cellular level of the plant, or Any plant for that matter.

ethylene is the gas that fruits naturally create to signal the end of the season, or, ripening... often used in food transport, to "ripen" the fruit during shipping. tomatoes can be picked "green", gassed in the shipping container, & arrive @ market, "red"...

when a plant is stressed during the end of the season, it can prematurely relase this naturally occurring gas, "potentially" decreasing desired results @ harvest... including undeveloped friuit, etc...

Newbies get enough confusing messages already. There's no need to make it worse by insisting that they seek "perfection" in their grow.

?...

so, seek im-perfection?

The probable reason for Mr. Krusty's perfection fetish is that he's a hydro grower, and the supposed inventor of the "Krusty Bucket" technique. Hydro is a very unforgiving method, easy to screw up, and expensive to run, even if "dialed in".

krusty did not invent the system... Gypsy Nirvana & Bubbleman actually posted 1st pics of the "bucket" system, @ og... they had to crawl into the room... the klown showed the then-new boards the tech. in detail...

many disagreed w/ krusty on many of the specs of the "bucket system", but few, if any, disagreed w/ the "low-stress" part of the tech... some of the techs/threds got to @ ic, after the fall...

every method can be unforgiving... but, isnt that the target for a "stress" garden, to get to "highest potential"?

set up hidro garden & keep ph unstable, feed unbalanced nutrients, have poor ventilation & lyghting & voila... should get a stressed plant that is "stronger" & "taste better", just by stressing it... just what member Bass Akwards seem to seek...

Soil growing is easier, by far, to learn, requires minimal equipment, is less expensive and much more forgiving of errors.

the topic has nothing to do w/ soil, hidro, or soilless gardening... there are plenty threds in ea forum which have stressed plants, w/ many gardeners seeking how to have non-stressed plants...

Hydro can certainly grow fast, and is less likely to support insect pests, but new growers are better off not being chained to the hydro store, and the dizzying array of "supplements", "boosters" and "hogwash" they sell.

hidro does not = stress... thred topic is not hidro, or soil, or any media... the thred seem about plants being "better", "stronger", etc... when grown in "imperfect" condtions, under "stress".... only posted another pov, that pov: that low-no stress give best result.

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=3620828&postcount=18

 

[ibjamming]

Mistress... I'm not sure, but I'm thinking that not ALL stress at ANY time is good...but there is probably a bit of truth in "some" stressors being beneficial at certain times.

We've ALL heard it's good to flush (deny nutes) at the end...better taste and supposedly stronger. We've all heard you should let the plant dry out a bit before harvest...to facilitate drying and for potency.

I agree, holding back nutes, light, water, any other stressors DURING active growth is a no no (but the defoliation folks might disagree). But in the end...I think it's true...at least to an extent. I do them already, the flush and the drying...I'll be drying a little more next time.

Plants and animals DO go through physical changes in response to stress. I guess someone with a few clones to spare will have to do a test run. Each grown under different conditions...some with, some without, stress.

 

[BigDaddyTrax]

Love threads that make you think/debate. Good info on both sides. I tend to agree that stressing out the plant to some degree will make it stronger as a whole. Now, whether that means higher THC content is debatable. So many factors to consider.

I just defoliated my outdoor plants yesterday, so lets HOPE stressing it out works! lol

 

[partly cloudy]

wow, long first post! To start I want to apologize for the long post, and my argument comes from trial and errors from an array of styles of growing.........not bashing, just posting my opinions in this debate, and some of my experiences with growing. I have learned to look at quality over quantity, and provide my patients with the very best I can, not the most I can. I feel medicine should be about ultimate quality and effects, not about producing a low quality cash crop..... I'm not big pharma!

From my experience (hydro-coco-soil-organic soil) you get the best flavors and smell from fruit that fully rippens "on the vine" and to get better flavors and smells use only organics. Ive run all kinds of setups and the last run was performed with organic soil with no nutes whatsoever.... everythings in the soil, I used only plain water, has been absolutely the best (strongest and dankest) ive ever grown. no flush (not needed in orgaincs to remove the nutrients salts from the medium and plant - there are none) its not about starving them in the end, its about removal of chemicals that make your product harsh and nasty. Chloraphyl also makes the product harsh and nasty so its a side benefit that they get starved in the end with the flush. chloraphyl is the culprit for the "my weed tastes like grass" statement. nutrient salts in your plant is the culprit for the "my weed makes me cough" statement.

The best flavors come in when the plant fades which occurs naturally in the very end, everyone tries to counter it with more nutes because they see their plant start to yellow at the bottom which adding nutes at this point makes for a harsh smoke. let it fade all the way, the plant will drop all its sunleaves when it doesnt need them anymore.

I found a write up from subcool regarding this, he calls it "infinite dank theory" I suggest everyone look into this theory. I used to think stressors would raise the "dank" in my end results and it never has, all ive ever gotten from stressing my plants was more work and stressed plants.

I'm not talking about perfecting anything, just letting your plants do what they do.... genes do make a huge difference in your end result. if you want strong smoke then get some good genes and let it grow all the way out..... even better do it organically. I mean grow all the way out! if your seed bank says its a 6-8 week strain, try growing it out to at least 10 weeks..... let all of those pistils dry out, dont harvest when you have nice white fleshy pistils or your too early and you'll be saying "my weed tastes like grass" or "will a cure bring out the flavor?" the biggest mistake even experienced growers make is harvesting too early. I know..... I used to make this mistake also. I have shared some of my harvest with a fellow grower (very experienced) and some patients around my area and all are saying its better than what they get at their dispensaries by far. and to make it even better its 100% organic. I have one patient that told me it (Bubba Kush) was too strong for her and she wouldnt smoke it, so I had to get a lighter strain for her which turned out to be UK Cheese. Still devastating but good for her, great flavor and smell.

Strains: bubba kush - absolutely devastating! UK cheese - devastating but not as couch locky.
Looking to add some TGA genes soon, and a nice Jack Herrer to round off my offerings.