New idea of bio buckets withot lava rock for BB, need feedback

[punkp88]

Hi there,
So im gonna try a new method of using bio buckets without the lavarock.
Im thinking they are too rough and just want to stick with hydrotron.
Maybe this has been done before?

The reason being Ive read a lot of stuff about lavarock being rough on the roots and I would like to lower the level of water an inch or too seems like people have problems/suggestions with that one

So I came across this koi pond company
and they have this cheap and easy bio filter cheap and easy to make so you could build it as big as you wanted

http://www.skippysstuff.com/biofiltr.htm

here's another link to one with pictures
http://www.jpgo.co.uk/DIY-Bio-Filter-and-Venturi-Project.pdf

Here is the media that they use they swear its better than lavarock and other media

its scrubber pads

http://www.skippysstuff.com/media.html

I want to use this bio-filter so that the return to my res passes through this filter (it can/will create a waterfall also)

I also want to custom design a small pipe with bb media inside going straight back to the pump and to the buckets

Hopefully most of the water and bad bacteria will eventually pass through the media and get cleaned.

Does the media holding the bacteria have to be inside each individual bucket??

If so I was thinking of using small chunks of the media mixed with hydrotron.

and these things in each bucket
oxygen plus bio filter
its basically a airstone wrapped in a bio filter

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=3940

I would like to start cycling all of the above things in a different room so that the bacteria can develop before my next batch comes down.

Is this possible??
Or does all media have to be in the water that youre going to use

I would love to have lots of media cycled with bacteria ready to go.

Is this possible in seperate containers of water bubbling with tons of oxygen?

I would have all new water with no chlorine/ammonia etc

Any thoughts would be great!

Thanks
P

 

[delta9nxs]

hey, punkp88, how are you?

i grew with bio-buckets for a while and used red lava rock the first 2 grows. i was running a very high volume of water through each bucket. 23 volumes per hour. i would frequently see pieces of root material in the res.

the next 2 grows i did with hydroton. same volume of flow, no root pieces. i believe the roots were "sawing off" on the rock.

the last 2 grows were with no medium. i built clamping collars to hold the plants. no root pieces.

on grows 3,4,5, and 6 i put an open plastic basket full of lava rock in the res. all six grows produced nice plants.

for about 20 years i captured live marine specimens for the pet industry and public aquariums. i built large bacteria filters using plastic pot scrubbers. put them in a container that's all drilled out, drill out a tray made from something plastic and place it or hang it from the top. have at least some of your return water go into it and pack it full of pot scrubbers. this provides tremendous surface area for bacteria in a small space plus a lot of o2.

 

[BudGood]

People have tried doing biobuckets with hydroton. It doesn't have the millions of pores that lava rock does, and consequently doesn't harbor the beneficial bacteria in the same efficient manner.

The inline pipe thing is an interesting idea, but you're asking for disaster (pump damage leading to catastrophic failure). Besides, the bacteria colonize where the water meets the air, so chances are it won't work as you plan.

I must ask this: Have you had successful harvests yet? Might wanna consider going with something that works and is proven if you haven't. Learn to walk before you run, grasshopper.

Deltas advice is sound. If you're hell bent on this idea, at least set up a biofield as he suggests.

 

[punkp88]

hey, punkp88, how are you?

i grew with bio-buckets for a while and used red lava rock the first 2 grows. i was running a very high volume of water through each bucket. 23 volumes per hour. i would frequently see pieces of root material in the res.

the next 2 grows i did with hydroton. same volume of flow, no root pieces. i believe the roots were "sawing off" on the rock.

the last 2 grows were with no medium. i built clamping collars to hold the plants. no root pieces.

on grows 3,4,5, and 6 i put an open plastic basket full of lava rock in the res. all six grows produced nice plants.

for about 20 years i captured live marine specimens for the pet industry and public aquariums. i built large bacteria filters using plastic pot scrubbers. put them in a container that's all drilled out, drill out a tray made from something plastic and place it or hang it from the top. have at least some of your return water go into it and pack it full of pot scrubbers. this provides tremendous surface area for bacteria in a small space plus a lot of o2.

thanks for the advice man

So im going to do that bucket idea of yours and ive went out and bought a load of scrubbers

Can I harbour the beneficals in another source and then bring the scrubbers into the res with the bacteria already on them?
Like a 5/10 gallon tub with a bubbler in the bottom and a fan blowing on top of the water.

The reason why i want to do this is because Im 2 weeks into bloom and Im getting a little algae.
I believe this is from some decaying matter
I want to change out the water and and reintroduce the bacteria with tons of new scrubbers.
I have one bacterial sponge i can already add to the tub to give it a jumpstart, along with maybe some other bacteria

theres not many roots in the water because theyre not growing into the rocks just out the sides and not down

Thanks again
P

 

[punkp88]

People have tried doing biobuckets with hydroton. It doesn't have the millions of pores that lava rock does, and consequently doesn't harbor the beneficial bacteria in the same efficient manner.

The inline pipe thing is an interesting idea, but you're asking for disaster (pump damage leading to catastrophic failure). Besides, the bacteria colonize where the water meets the air, so chances are it won't work as you plan.

I must ask this: Have you had successful harvests yet? Might wanna consider going with something that works and is proven if you haven't. Learn to walk before you run, grasshopper.

Deltas advice is sound. If you're hell bent on this idea, at least set up a biofield as he suggests.

Hi bud good
Cool thanks for the feedback
Yeah first time
My plants arent growing down through the lavarock just out the sides and
I think theyre ripping the roots a little and it might be causing a little algae
Yeah thanks i will skip the pipe idea and get a square basket instead and fill it full of scrubbers.

Thanks
P

 

[turbolaser4528]

hey, punkp88, how are you?

i grew with bio-buckets for a while and used red lava rock the first 2 grows. i was running a very high volume of water through each bucket. 23 volumes per hour. i would frequently see pieces of root material in the res.

the next 2 grows i did with hydroton. same volume of flow, no root pieces. i believe the roots were "sawing off" on the rock.

the last 2 grows were with no medium. i built clamping collars to hold the plants. no root pieces.

on grows 3,4,5, and 6 i put an open plastic basket full of lava rock in the res. all six grows produced nice plants.

for about 20 years i captured live marine specimens for the pet industry and public aquariums. i built large bacteria filters using plastic pot scrubbers. put them in a container that's all drilled out, drill out a tray made from something plastic and place it or hang it from the top. have at least some of your return water go into it and pack it full of pot scrubbers. this provides tremendous surface area for bacteria in a small space plus a lot of o2.

Interesting, which method do think was the best? did the bucket of lava rock in the res help much?

as far as the filter you mentioned, do you mean like this?

http://www.aquariumlife.net/projects/diy-filter/111.asp

its a DIY article for a sick bio filter, I just wonder if those plastic pot scrubbers will harbor ben. bacterium well, or as good as lava rock.

any pics or more info would be cool, since you seem to know your stuff. Where does the o2 come from in the bucket though? you say the trickle tray creates o2 but if the buckets is sealed with no ventilation where will the fresh air to make that o2 come from?

 

[Cranberry]

Hello Punkp88,

yes the lava rocks are sharp and yes you loose a few roots but never seams to hurt anything. just makes you keep the pump intake clean. I did have the same issues that you are worried about. What worked best for me was to use lava rocks but only fill baskets to water level in bucket. then I use hydrotron for the rest of the pot and around my clones. Doing this I seem to have better transplants with faster recovery to being transplanted.

I tried all hydrotron a while back but just like I was told the plant lacked the support. I was amazed to see the root ball roll side to side in the pots. Thats how I ended up with lava rocks at the bottom and hyrotron on top.

My little trick for harvesting BB is pretty simple. I use a small mess bag like from boiling onions or what ever you can find thats plastic mesh. I put about a large coffee can of lava in the bag. Hang the bag in the res for the last to weeks of my grow. Then I take that bag put it in a five gallon bucket, fill bucket with half hydro water and half well or spring water. not city water.. Add an air stone to keep the bucket aspirated. Then after system is fleas ted and greased topped with fresh water run for two days to let any chlorine dissipate I them add my bio started bag to the system and your off and running. This takes a week or better off your start up time. Good luck and keep it simple..

 

[Cranberry]

quick note:

you will find a massive root structure inside your net pots. When i first started with this system I had massive roots out side of my pots, almost always plugging my bucket drains. With time you can learn to feed the plant and not the roots. Meaning I have smaller rootballs with plants the same size and yields. Its just a learning thing. I like big fat lazy plants. Unlike my ladys I like them lean and mean fighting machines.. lol

 

[BudGood]

Hello Punkp88,

yes the lava rocks are sharp and yes you loose a few roots but never seams to hurt anything. just makes you keep the pump intake clean. I did have the same issues that you are worried about. What worked best for me was to use lava rocks but only fill baskets to water level in bucket. then I use hydrotron for the rest of the pot and around my clones. Doing this I seem to have better transplants with faster recovery to being transplanted.

I tried all hydrotron a while back but just like I was told the plant lacked the support. I was amazed to see the root ball roll side to side in the pots. Thats how I ended up with lava rocks at the bottom and hyrotron on top.

My little trick for harvesting BB is pretty simple. I use a small mess bag like from boiling onions or what ever you can find thats plastic mesh. I put about a large coffee can of lava in the bag. Hang the bag in the res for the last to weeks of my grow. Then I take that bag put it in a five gallon bucket, fill bucket with half hydro water and half well or spring water. not city water.. Add an air stone to keep the bucket aspirated. Then after system is fleas ted and greased topped with fresh water run for two days to let any chlorine dissipate I them add my bio started bag to the system and your off and running. This takes a week or better off your start up time. Good luck and keep it simple..

Great idea Cranberry!

 

[delta9nxs]

Quote from budgood
“The inline pipe thing is an interesting idea, but you're asking for disaster (pump damage leading to catastrophic failure). Besides, the bacteria colonize where the water meets the air, so chances are it won't work as you plan.

I must ask this: Have you had successful harvests yet? Might wanna consider going with something that works and is proven if you haven't. Learn to walk before you run, grasshopper.”

d9
I concur, anytime you put anything in a pipe you are seriously decreasing flow due to increased resistance. Even a straight run of pvc pipe with nothing in it has a mathematically calculable resistance that creates back pressure on your pump. Especially magnetically driven aquarium powerheads, which are not really pumps at all, but blowers.

I too get the impression that you are a relatively new grower. If so, you have picked an advanced method requiring a lot of thought and experience to manage. I consider DWC and RDWC to be steps on the way to bio-buckets.

Quote from punkp88
“So im going to do that bucket idea of yours and ive went out and bought a load of scrubbers

Can I harbour the beneficals in another source and then bring the scrubbers into the res with the bacteria already on them?

Like a 5/10 gallon tub with a bubbler in the bottom and a fan blowing on top of the water.

The reason why i want to do this is because Im 2 weeks into bloom and Im getting a little algae.
I believe this is from some decaying matter
I want to change out the water and and reintroduce the bacteria with tons of new scrubbers.
I have one bacterial sponge i can already add to the tub to give it a jumpstart, along with maybe some other bacteria”

d9
yes you can move them as long as you don't let them dry out. Algae does not come from decaying matter, it comes from having light, water, and nutrients in the same place at the same time. Lightproof everything and you stop algae. It's really not dangerous, but it competes with the plant for resources. And attracts fungus gnats.

Quote from turbolaser
“Interesting, which method do think was the best? did the bucket of lava rock in the res help much?

as far as the filter you mentioned, do you mean like this?

http://www.aquariumlife.net/projects/diy-filter/111.asp

its a DIY article for a sick bio filter, I just wonder if those plastic pot scrubbers will harbor ben. bacterium well, or as good as lava rock.

any pics or more info would be cool, since you seem to know your stuff. Where does the o2 come from in the bucket though? you say the trickle tray creates o2 but if the buckets is sealed with no ventilation where will the fresh air to make that o2 come from?

d9
all grows came out about the same weight, so I can't really say which worked best. I do know that lava rock mechanically supported the plants well. They were floppy with the hydroton, and clamping collars are a pain as you are constantly messing with them to get them right.

Yes, I believe the basket of rock in the res helped the bacteria count. How much? Who knows.

Yes, my filters were very similar to the ones in your link. I used five gallon buckets that were so packed with scrubbers that it took 2 big people to put the lid on. They must have had a tremendous bacterial field because I used them in those 80 gal 5' diameter kiddie pools you see at wally's. I put hundreds of fish and inverts in them. I powered them with 400 gph hagen 802's.

On design, imagine the last 2 photos in the link with hundreds of 3/8” holes drilled through the sidewalls. That's where the o2 comes from. The falling action of the water pulls air into the filter. I used 1/8” drip holes to create more small streams. Also, the guy says he's using a mag-drive 12. May I submit to you the idea that for a wet/dry “trickle” filter to work properly it should trickle. A mag 12 through a 5 gal bucket is a torrent. You want a good, steady, “rain”, not a tropical deluge. I don't know what flow rate we're talking about here but I wouldn't run more than about 400 gph through them. If your pump puts out much more than that you could divert some of the flow through the filter while inputing the balance directly into the res.

Also, he says to use filter floss in the top for debris. Not a bad idea but try 1” upholstery foam pads instead. Cut it out to the shape of your filter so it's a tight fit. You will have to hold it under water and squeeze all the air out to get it started right. It then becomes not only a mechanical filter but a biological one as well.

I built my first one in 1981. that year some guys in the marinelife industry from new york came to the islands to see my operation on the pretense of becoming buyers. They took a good, hard look at my filters, took pictures and made diagrams. They never did buy any specimens but about a year later I began seeing “wet/dry trickle filters” with bio-balls as medium in aquarium magazines. I checked the company out and one of the guys who came to see me was the owner. He also claimed to be the inventor. Well, I wrote a novel again, later on


____________

 

[BudGood]

Hey delta9, just wanna let you know, to do a multi quote, use the button to the right of the quick reply, keep hitting those until you've quoted everyone you want to respond to, then on the last person you quoted, hit the "Quote" button to the left of the quick reply button. Sometimes I'll delete most of the message, and just leave the part(s) I want to respond to. Makes it a lot easier for other readers to understand. Hope that helps!

 

[delta9nxs]

BudGood

BudGood

it's the "old dog new trick" syndrome. i know how to use the feature but i sometimes use open word to write and i'm in a hurry sometimes. but thank you, you are right, it would be easier for everyone. i'll work on it.

 

[turbolaser4528]

interesting, I guess this would also work with lava rock too. what about using pot scrubber in the net pots for a medium? lol nevermind prolly a bad idea

 

[punkp88]

Hello Punkp88,

yes the lava rocks are sharp and yes you loose a few roots but never seams to hurt anything. just makes you keep the pump intake clean. I did have the same issues that you are worried about. What worked best for me was to use lava rocks but only fill baskets to water level in bucket. then I use hydrotron for the rest of the pot and around my clones. Doing this I seem to have better transplants with faster recovery to being transplanted.

I tried all hydrotron a while back but just like I was told the plant lacked the support. I was amazed to see the root ball roll side to side in the pots. Thats how I ended up with lava rocks at the bottom and hyrotron on top.

My little trick for harvesting BB is pretty simple. I use a small mess bag like from boiling onions or what ever you can find thats plastic mesh. I put about a large coffee can of lava in the bag. Hang the bag in the res for the last to weeks of my grow. Then I take that bag put it in a five gallon bucket, fill bucket with half hydro water and half well or spring water. not city water.. Add an air stone to keep the bucket aspirated. Then after system is fleas ted and greased topped with fresh water run for two days to let any chlorine dissipate I them add my bio started bag to the system and your off and running. This takes a week or better off your start up time. Good luck and keep it simple..

Thanks cranberry thats just what I needed

Thanks so much d9 for your response to this thread
Ive done dwc before and saw bio buckets just before I decided to go rdwc.
Ive built the bio buckets and if it doesnt work out i can easily convert it back to a rdwc system.
Im just trying to learn more about the BB side of the bio buckets

by the way is there any sure way to tell or test that theres bb bacteria established within th medium

Thanks Guys
P

 

[punkp88]

Interesting

Interesting

quick note:

you will find a massive root structure inside your net pots. When i first started with this system I had massive roots out side of my pots, almost always plugging my bucket drains. With time you can learn to feed the plant and not the roots. Meaning I have smaller rootballs with plants the same size and yields. Its just a learning thing. I like big fat lazy plants. Unlike my ladys I like them lean and mean fighting machines.. lol

Hi Cranberry
so whats a good to way to accomplish feeding the plants instead of the roots??
do you feed the oasis cube only, or lots of foliar feeding instead
Thanks
P

 

[BudGood]

by the way is there any sure way to tell or test that theres bb bacteria established within th medium

Thanks Guys
P

I just feel the water, it'll feel "slimy" between your fingers, if that makes sense.

 

[turbolaser4528]

Quote from turbolaser
“Interesting, which method do think was the best? did the bucket of lava rock in the res help much?

as far as the filter you mentioned, do you mean like this?

http://www.aquariumlife.net/projects/diy-filter/111.asp

its a DIY article for a sick bio filter, I just wonder if those plastic pot scrubbers will harbor ben. bacterium well, or as good as lava rock.

any pics or more info would be cool, since you seem to know your stuff. Where does the o2 come from in the bucket though? you say the trickle tray creates o2 but if the buckets is sealed with no ventilation where will the fresh air to make that o2 come from?

d9
all grows came out about the same weight, so I can't really say which worked best. I do know that lava rock mechanically supported the plants well. They were floppy with the hydroton, and clamping collars are a pain as you are constantly messing with them to get them right.

Yes, I believe the basket of rock in the res helped the bacteria count. How much? Who knows.

Yes, my filters were very similar to the ones in your link. I used five gallon buckets that were so packed with scrubbers that it took 2 big people to put the lid on. They must have had a tremendous bacterial field because I used them in those 80 gal 5' diameter kiddie pools you see at wally's. I put hundreds of fish and inverts in them. I powered them with 400 gph hagen 802's.

On design, imagine the last 2 photos in the link with hundreds of 3/8” holes drilled through the sidewalls. That's where the o2 comes from. The falling action of the water pulls air into the filter. I used 1/8” drip holes to create more small streams. Also, the guy says he's using a mag-drive 12. May I submit to you the idea that for a wet/dry “trickle” filter to work properly it should trickle. A mag 12 through a 5 gal bucket is a torrent. You want a good, steady, “rain”, not a tropical deluge. I don't know what flow rate we're talking about here but I wouldn't run more than about 400 gph through them. If your pump puts out much more than that you could divert some of the flow through the filter while inputing the balance directly into the res.

Also, he says to use filter floss in the top for debris. Not a bad idea but try 1” upholstery foam pads instead. Cut it out to the shape of your filter so it's a tight fit. You will have to hold it under water and squeeze all the air out to get it started right. It then becomes not only a mechanical filter but a biological one as well.

I built my first one in 1981. that year some guys in the marinelife industry from new york came to the islands to see my operation on the pretense of becoming buyers. They took a good, hard look at my filters, took pictures and made diagrams. They never did buy any specimens but about a year later I began seeing “wet/dry trickle filters” with bio-balls as medium in aquarium magazines. I checked the company out and one of the guys who came to see me was the owner. He also claimed to be the inventor. Well, I wrote a novel again, later on


____________

damn dude thats messed up, great idea though, this filter sounds badass and very cheap, I just dont know how to incorporate it into a setup, maybe a seperate res with a pump? ahhh...