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New Growers, Step #1 - pH Buffer Prior To Planting With Dolomitic Lime

DiscoBiscuit

weed fiend
Veteran
So the #1 grower error is over watering?

I suggest the most frequent challenge for new growers is getting their pH buffer in the correct range. Proper pH allows roots to absorb nutrients. Improper pH reduces and even prevents nute absorption. You'll get nutrient deficiencies if the medium is too acidic. In this case, nutes build up in the soil and nutrient lock out may occur. Instead of roots absorbing nutrients in the medium, plants cannibalize their leaves in attempts to survive. Left alone, too much acid may kill cannabis plants.

For the record, too alkaline is bad too.

We're talking soil (which is dirt) aka clay sand or loam based.

-OR-

Bagged potting-soil.

This is often referred to as soil less because it contains zero to little dirt. Depending on the conditions, dirt takes decades to materialize from organic decomposition.

Soil less potting mediums are by-and-large forest products. That is; peat, humus, tree bark etc... aged and composted to moderate acidic hot-spots in the mix.

Pick up a bag of potting soil and read the label. See lime listed?

That's not citrus lime. It's mineral lime mined from the earth. It's one type of buffer that raises the pH of your medium to weed friendly. It's also what buffers the range to keep your plants (and you) happy throughout the entire grow.

There are substitutes for lime and our members are listing alternatives. The key is buffering and lime is but one agent.

Never rest assured your soil less is straight to go out of the bag. pH ranges vary per plant species and even popular weed mediums like Fox Farm Ocean Forest, (peat and ferts in a bag) or Pro Mix (no ferts) are on the acidic end of the necessary range.

Potting soil manufacturers know not to overdo buffering agents because it's hard to go back w/o adding peat or other acidic ingredients. Some plants such as azaleas like acidic soil and there we have the reason your bag of potting soil isn't dialed to weed-specific.

Lime is one of the cheapest ingredients in your arsenal of buffering agents so there's no excuse not to be prepared.

There are different kinds of lime and different textures.

Dolomitic and Calcitic lime - Cannabis growers prefer dolomite or dolomitic lime because it contains Calcium (Ca) and Magnesium (Mg). Calcitic lime will buffer but it doesn't contain Mg.

powdered vs pelletized vs hydrated lime:

By and large, powdered dolomitic is best form of lime. It mixes more consistently and doesn't contain the clay that comprises pellet form. Powdered lime is dangerous to inhale (it's caustic.) So avoid breathing the dry powder that billows whenever messed with.

Pellet lime is contained by hardened clay so that billowing isn't an issue. Farmers use this outdoors in large quantities and the clay is partly for safety as well as endurance. Clay is also harder to over lime than sandy soils so it also acts as a measurement differential, (apply a little too much and everything's still okay.)

Hydrated lime - stay away unless you're familiar with this stuff. There are varied opinions whether one can actually over lime. With this stuff there's absolutely no doubt you can easily overdo. It's no better to have caustic soil than acidic.

The pH scale ranges from 0 to 14. Less than 7.0 pH is acidic and more than 7.0 is alkaline. Cannabis in soil and soil less likes a range better than one static pH value.

Generally, 6.5 to 6.8 is a good range to shoot for. You'll learn about varied amendments that might broaden this range but I won't get into it here.

Always test your medium before adding more buffering agent(s) and never plant w/o testing to see if additional buffers are necessary.

What you need first is a small pot of your medium to take the sample. Add enough water to get a measurable amount of runoff. Measure the runoff and adjust accordingly.

Un-ferted potting soils generally use lime at the rate of 1 tablespoon per gallon of mix. They're usually ~6.0 or less from the bag.

All peat or peat heavy mixes may take as much as 2 tablespoons lime per gallon. You might test this in the 5.5 or lower pH.

I've read that Fox Farm Ocean Forest rates a ~6.3 pH on average. A good measure of lime is one cup per cubic foot, that's equivilant to ~7 gallons

Once you've determined how much buffer to add, mix well into medium before planting. Lime is slow-acting and you can mix up a batch of medium for future grows and it'll actually work better than planting immediately. Add a little water to moisten (not saturate) the mix. A month or two to "cook" before planting makes it sing.

You can also get away with planting as soon as lime is added.

So come on, IC members! Lets hear what works best for you when using buffers in your popular or less than popular circumstance. And for the organic grower who suggests pH isn't an issue, please reflect you may still be adding buffers. Buffers are a big part of mixes with dry fert ingredients.
 
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tuinman

Good post, the first time I tried doing this I mixed up the difference between soil & soilless, definitely made things difficult.
 

DiscoBiscuit

weed fiend
Veteran
Thanks for the input, tuinman.

If your soilless is aged and composted, it should produce minimal pH fluctuation. Lime is one ingredient that makes a well incorporated soil/ soil less mix more consistent.
 
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pinecone

Sativa Tamer
Veteran
So come on, IC members! Lets hear what works best for you when using lime in your popular or less than popular circumstance. And for the organic grower who suggests pH isn't an issue, please reflect you're still adding lime. Lime is a big part of that non-issue.:)

I'm evolving. I started growing years ago with FFOF with added perlite and dolomite lime and bottled organic fertilizers. About the time of my second grow I decided I was going to get really serious and "pump up" up my plants by feeding more more often and adjusting the ph down to 6 with citric acid to allow for "optimal nutrient uptake". That grow was by far my crappiest grow that I have had. Home Depot stopped carrying perlite without Miracle Grow added so I just stopped adding perlite to FFOF. Then I read that FFOF already had liming agents in it so I stopped adding lime. Growing in FFOF with no added lime, very alkaline water, organic fertilizers, and no pH metering or adjustments is not a problem in my experience. I grew successfully this way for years.

Now I have my own coco-based mix that I recycle and mostly top dress dry organic fertilizers. My mix was limed initially and top dressed with lime again when I recycled. I still don't do any pH metering or adjustments and am frankly starting to question my use of lime. The reason I think I added lime to my soil(less) mix is not for its pH buffering, but rather for the minerals. If I want source another source of minerals in my mix gypsum and crushed oyster shell might be better. I don't know.

I'm a hobbyist grower. I've never even sold as much as a gram of weed that I've grown and smoke less than 1oz a month typically. I can easily grow way more MJ than I need. I enjoy experimenting and part of me just wants to see how much of the conventional wisdom that complicates grows can be done away with. So far I've done away with adding perlite to FFOF, using containers with drainage holes, flushing, HPS bulbs for flowering, bottled fertilizers, pH metering and adjusting, and re-mixing (tilling) before re-planting. I've also discovered that I can bring things in from outside to make my indoor grow better. Although I haven't killed any plants, I don't mind doing so to find out what else I can dispense with.

I do think if you have a well constructed soil(less) mix (which may or may not include lime) and rely on organic fertilizers that pH metering and adjustment is not necessary. In a peat based mix I think you are definitely going to need some dolomite lime, but I'm not so sure about coco-based mixes.

Pine
 
T

tuinman

I do think if you have a well constructed soil(less) mix (which may or may not include lime) and rely on organic fertilizers that pH metering and adjustment is not necessary. In a peat based mix I think you are definitely going to need some dolomite lime, but I'm not so sure about coco-based mixes.
Pine

Still a good idea for coco-based mixes, not only does it give you a buffer as time goes by and various processes occur - it also provides cal/mag. I helped a friend with a coco-based grow who decided to leave it out based on the lime-for-ph-only theory and ran into mg issues throughout the grow. It was supplemented, but didn't need to be, and could've been avoided easily at the beginning.
 

pinecone

Sativa Tamer
Veteran
Still a good idea for coco-based mixes, not only does it give you a buffer as time goes by and various processes occur - it also provides cal/mag. I helped a friend with a coco-based grow who decided to leave it out based on the lime-for-ph-only theory and ran into mg issues throughout the grow. It was supplemented, but didn't need to be, and could've been avoided easily at the beginning.

I would put in some other type of rock powder, and crushed oyster shell, and/or gypsum to supply a diversity of minerals at a faster rate than DM. When I say coco-based mix I mean coco mixed with earth worm castings and perlite. Castings have a bunch of Ca and Mg.

Sometimes I go over to gardenweb and read in the container gardening forum. The gurus over there don't recommend using lime with coco, but rather gypsum as coco is naturally near neutral pH and doesn't need to be buffered the same way that peat does. Truth be told DM is sort of falling out of favor in the Organic Soil forum here as well.

All this said - you might very well be correct. I simply don't know until I've had a chance to experiment on my own.

Pine
 
T

tuinman

I would put in some other type of rock powder, and crushed oyster shell, and/or gypsum to supply a diversity of minerals at a faster rate than DM. When I say coco-based mix I mean coco mixed with earth worm castings and perlite. Castings have a bunch of Ca and Mg.
Ah, gotcha. I generally add worm castings as well - but throw in dolomite out of habit.

Sometimes I go over to gardenweb and read in the container gardening forum. The gurus over there don't recommend using lime with coco, but rather gypsum as coco is naturally near neutral pH and doesn't need to be buffered the same way that peat does. Truth be told DM is sort of falling out of favor in the Organic Soil forum here as well.
I'll have to look more into gypsum then, 50lb bags are extremely cheap. I'm assuming this is only being advocated here (organic soil forum) and gardenweb? Do you have any links, out of curiosity?

All this said - you might very well be correct. I simply don't know until I've had a chance to experiment on my own.

I'm with ya on this one.
 

DiscoBiscuit

weed fiend
Veteran
I'm evolving. I started growing years ago with FFOF with added perlite and dolomite lime and bottled organic fertilizers. About the time of my second grow I decided I was going to get really serious and "pump up" up my plants by feeding more more often and adjusting the ph down to 6 with citric acid to allow for "optimal nutrient uptake". That grow was by far my crappiest grow that I have had. Home Depot stopped carrying perlite without Miracle Grow added so I just stopped adding perlite to FFOF. Then I read that FFOF already had liming agents in it so I stopped adding lime. Growing in FFOF with no added lime, very alkaline water, organic fertilizers, and no pH metering or adjustments is not a problem in my experience. I grew successfully this way for years.

Now I have my own coco-based mix that I recycle and mostly top dress dry organic fertilizers. My mix was limed initially and top dressed with lime again when I recycled. I still don't do any pH metering or adjustments and am frankly starting to question my use of lime. The reason I think I added lime to my soil(less) mix is not for its pH buffering, but rather for the minerals. If I want source another source of minerals in my mix gypsum and crushed oyster shell might be better. I don't know.

I'm a hobbyist grower. I've never even sold as much as a gram of weed that I've grown and smoke less than 1oz a month typically. I can easily grow way more MJ than I need. I enjoy experimenting and part of me just wants to see how much of the conventional wisdom that complicates grows can be done away with. So far I've done away with adding perlite to FFOF, using containers with drainage holes, flushing, HPS bulbs for flowering, bottled fertilizers, pH metering and adjusting, and re-mixing (tilling) before re-planting. I've also discovered that I can bring things in from outside to make my indoor grow better. Although I haven't killed any plants, I don't mind doing so to find out what else I can dispense with.

I do think if you have a well constructed soil(less) mix (which may or may not include lime) and rely on organic fertilizers that pH metering and adjustment is not necessary. In a peat based mix I think you are definitely going to need some dolomite lime, but I'm not so sure about coco-based mixes.

Pine

pinecone, I like the kis approach.:)

I'd like to try a medium that incorporates it's own buffer but the only option I have here is the outdoor clay soil in my immediate area. I can go up on the mountain where soil is more incorporated with forest products. It's black, rich and very easy to work. Only thing is the pH is better suited to the wild rhododendrons. I haven't yet sampled the pH but I know rhodos prefer the acidic soil that evergreen products produce.

I could probably mix the mountain stuff with the clay in the back yard and grow pH neutral plants. Thanks for the info:)

I also like your info about the perlite. I got crazy with that stuff early on and didn't understand I was pouring water through the mix as opposed to saturating it. I got patches of dead roots that dehydrated while the remainder of roots likely resulted in less yield. As a result, I've lowered the perlite and reduced the drainage holes in my containers.

My most recent container is a Sterlite tub for scrog grows. Rather than cut drainage holes in the tub, I substituted a plug at the bottom end. Now I water with enough volume to get a bit of runoff. W/o the plug, I get a large volume of runoff and the mix isn't consistently hydrated. The plug leaves the water in the tub long enough to saturate via wick. Then I pull the plug and release any standing water at the bottom that might rot or adversely affect the roots.

I hear good things about the buffering qualities of crushed oyster shell and the minerals contained.

Thanks for pointing out that buffering is key and it ain't lime exclusively that gets us the pH range we need. I'll edit my posts to reflect this. Thanks again.
 
P

Paully_B

this is a great thread as i have been having issues with cal/mag deficiencies and possible nute lockout...this is going to help a lot when i begin the next round
 

pinecone

Sativa Tamer
Veteran
I'll have to look more into gypsum then, 50lb bags are extremely cheap. I'm assuming this is only being advocated here (organic soil forum) and gardenweb? Do you have any links, out of curiosity?

Gypsum is known to be a soil conditioner. It is often recommended for improving clay soils. I think it works very differently from DM. I believe I read somewhere that it actually lower the pH as it breaks down. I'll look for some informative links (I don't bookmark these things or anything).

Crushed oyster shell is a liming agent. It is also very cheap. I paid $10 for a 50lb bag.

Calcined DE has also been mentioned as a liming agent - https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=4306378&postcount=122

I'd like to try a medium that incorporates it's own buffer but the only option I have here is the outdoor clay soil in my immediate area. I can go up on the mountain where soil is more incorporated with forest products. It's black, rich and very easy to work. Only thing is the pH is better suited to the wild rhododendrons. I haven't yet sampled the pH but I know rhodos prefer the acidic soil that evergreen products produce.

"Thinking of using local soil...maybe?" - https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=153542

Have you seen the thread above? Reading it has definitely made me more open to the idea of outside soil (and other materials). To date I haven't used any local soil, but I have incorporated decomposing leafs and some weeds from outside as mulch material.

I could probably mix the mountain stuff with the clay in the back yard and grow pH neutral plants. Thanks for the info:)

I recently read Teaming with Microbes. One of the thing the book emphasizes is that there soils dominated by bacteria and others dominated by fungi. Soils dominated by bacteria (like your typical good garden soil) are typically preferred by annuals, while fungal soils are preferred by perennials and trees. Bacteria produces alkaline slime and will raise the soil pH. On the other hand fungi produce acids that help them break down organic matter so fungal soils tend to be acidic. We as gardeners have do have some control over whether our soil is bacterial or fungal. For instance, mulching with green material (grass clippings, fresh weeds, ect) will promote bacteria (and higher pH), while mulch with brown materials (leafs, weed chips, ect) will promote fungi (and lower pH).

My most recent container is a Sterlite tub for scrog grows. Rather than cut drainage holes in the tub, I substituted a plug at the bottom end.

I am also using a Sterlite tub - but with no holes or plug. I water a little bit everyday with the goal of keeping the medium below the mulch moist.

I hear good things about the buffering qualities of crushed oyster shell and the minerals contained.

Below is an analysis of whats in it. Thanks to CC for digging up the analysis.

The results of the analyses of your samples of oyster shell:

Phosphorous (ug/g)* 195
Potassium (ug/g) 393
Calcium (ug/g) 400,000
Magnesium (ug/g) 2190
Iron (ug/g) 2065
Zinc (ug/g) 4
Copper (ug/g) < 0.7
Manganese (ug/g) 643
Boron (ug/g) 13
Molybdenum (ug/g) 1
Lead (ug/g) 10
Chromium (ug/g) 2
Cadmium (ug/g) < 1
Nickel (ug/g) 2
Cobalt (ug/g) < 0.3
Aluminum (ug/g) 2400
Sodium (ug/g) 1920
Strontium (ug/g) 1080
Barium (ug/g) 22
Vanadium (ug/g) 5
Beryllium (ug/g) 0.3
Mercury (ug/g) 1.5
Tin (ug/g) < 3.3

* ug/g = parts per million on a dry weight basis.
 
T

tuinman

Gypsum is known to be a soil conditioner. It is often recommended for improving clay soils. I think it works very differently from DM. I believe I read somewhere that it actually lower the pH as it breaks down. I'll look for some informative links (I don't bookmark these things or anything).

Crushed oyster shell is a liming agent. It is also very cheap. I paid $10 for a 50lb bag.

Calcined DE has also been mentioned as a liming agent - https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=4306378&postcount=122

Thank you for this, very informative. I was unaware that Calcined DE also has liming capability - I thought it was a perlite replacement that had excellent water holding capability.
 

DiscoBiscuit

weed fiend
Veteran
There may be several options for you, krazeesukur. (cool name:))

If your plant is in a small pot and you plan to transplant into a larger one, you can lime the additional soil that's required to fill the larger pot. Depending on the size differential, this may be less effective than liming before planting.

If your plant is already in your big pot, you can top-dress the mix. Top-dressing isn't as effective as incorporated but it could help if your runoff is below the desired range.

Try not to compensate by adding more lime than you would have from the start. You don't want too alkaline any more than too acidic. Hope this helps.
 

pinecone

Sativa Tamer
Veteran
I've read that lime works best as a pH buffer when wet. If you decide to top dress mix it in with the top layer of soil and then mulch over it. This way it will stay moist.

Pine
 
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