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New Experimental Organic Hydro Technique!

chris1985

Member
Greetings one and all!

Horticultural Science student and general indoor gardening enthusiast here, and I come bearing the fruits of my experimental research into oxygen-assisted medium-based grows. It is a unique compromise between basic dutch pot style hydroponics and organic soil based mediums. My serious professional interest in horticulture did incidentally begin with cannabis way back in early high school, when so many of us discovered the sacred herb. I was a pretty huge computer nerd at the time and so easily discovered the then-thriving community of Overgrow.com. I quickly became an amateur gardener, doing mostly outdoor guerrilla-grows at first. Guided by the massive knowledge-base that was overgrow I quickly became proficient enough to begin experimenting.

A couple of years pass, I get out of my parents' house and begin toying with hydroponics. After a few iterations and one horrible salt-lock incident I had gotten pretty good, favoring an Irish & Webby style aeroponic tube setup. The results where fantastic but the whole process was woefully labor-intensive and expensive to boot. Also, I had discovered Christian Kung Fu's salt element table and had come to simply add ratios of the pure elements needed (nitrogen, potassium, phosphorus, magnesium, so on and so fourth) in a stabalized salt form in the correct ratio by mass per litre of liquid added fresh to my resivoir. This got me a highly controlled environment with high-performance repeatable results, but it was difficult to experiment with different breeds of cannabis or whole different plants. On top of that, I felt that I was missing out on the benefits of organics and all associated micro-life. So, I began to work backwards.

The last bit of time I got with the Overgrow community before it was wiped away forever was spent figuring out what exactly caused the benefits of hydroponics over medium-based growing. Aside from a more precision control of the nutrients that the plant recieves (not so much a benefit in itself really, but to do this successfully you have to know what the fuck you are doing, which is directly related to growing awesome bud) all hydroponic rigs provide oxygen to the root zone in one way or another. High oxygen levels at the roots allows for more rapid nutrient uptake, etc, which leads to higher growth rates. I would eventually single this trait out as the only significant advantage that hydroponics has over medium growing at all. Then, midway through 2006 the Canadian Mounted Police Force, spurred on by the American CIA, siezed overgrow.com's physical assets and arrested most of its propriators for growing cannabis. As the cannabis knowlege giant died I was just discovering advanced micro-life. I experimented with organic mediums, finding out just how important Mycorrhizae fungus was to plant health and vigor. After a few iterations I would come across my most recent success:

Sadly, my personal and proffesional situation has made it a requirement for me to continue my research on plants which are legal to cultivate to maturity in the United States. I have worked primarily with tomato plants as they grow quite similarly to cannabis, reacting the same way to supercropping and ScrOG techniques which I had grown fond of over the years. Happily, the now-legal nature of my work means that I can publish information more freely. I have documented my newest organic hydro/medium hybrid technique in painstaking detail here:

http://my.gardenguides.com/members/.../27/Our_Innovative_Indoor_Tomato_Garden_Diary

This is a link to my first entry, click on the blog tab to see the whole thing, most recently updated about two weeks ago. I have had tremendous success growing tomatoes with this technique, although later on we faced problems with blossom-end-rot (BER) which is strictly a tomato issue related to insufficient calcium levels in the fruit. This is usually caused by low calcium or low magnisium (facilitates calcium uptake) in the soil. I had neither such problem and have heard from the tomato gurus on the GardenWeb forums that extreemly high growth rates can cause BER as calcium cannot be moved through the plant tissues quickly enough. My own expirience points towards this as in the past week they have been getting over this problem. I believe that my bubble-tub technique has yeilded growth rates similar to those possible with hydroponics at a fraction of the cost and complexity. By using forced-oxygen injection I have achived very rapid nutrient uptake, but all with the safetey net of a very active Mychorrizae fungus and pro-biotic cingle celled organisms. My primarily organic nutrient regime makes my micro-life thrive, and the huge oxygen levels ensures that only aerobacteria thrive, with pesky anaerobactirial pathogens being killed off by the default conditions. PH buffering and drout protection is build right into the soil. However, due to the valve system in the tubs and the arragement of the water bath the system is still fully capable of a starve-feed-and-flush hydroponic nutrient regime that has such dramatic positive effects on cannabis potency during flower. Even better, because each plant has its own container, there is no common nutrient bath. You may grow many different breeds of plants, with much longer or shorter flowering periods than eachother even, without having to compriamise on starve timing or nutrient content. In short, I believe my technique is the ultimate grow method.

I have only had the chance to prove it out on a pair of tomato plants, and my current situation does not afford me the opportunity to safely try it on cannabis. In short; I am making a plea to the Cannagraphic community. I will share my expirience and full instruction, answering any and all questions about the technique, if someone would care to try it out on cannabis and be so kind as to post the results. I promise low matinence yet high-performance yields. Don't take my word for it, have a browse through that blog, my records are meticulous. See the results for yourself, I even had a control tomato plant that was sprouted at the same time as the others but planted in conventional dirt. The rate at which the control plant is outgrown by the bubble-tub plants beggars belief. I have outlined the process in detail on the blog but not given a super-complete construction guide. ANYONE interested in giving this technique a try can count on me for full tech support and advice on how to knock the system together. It is VERY EASY. All matirials can be aquired from Lowe's, ACE hardware and any local garden center. No special or exotic ingredients required, just a basic medium, some lava rocks and organic nutes. The specifics are outlined in the above posted link. Have a look, please respond if you are interested.

-DM

thanks for that how long have you been studying this????
 
WE'VE Been experimenting in one way or another to reach this point for about 5 years. Thats out of 7 total years grow experience. It started with organically-spiked coco grows and grew into what is now the OBBT.

We spent a lot of time on the old Overgrow forums trying to reverse-engineer different hydro techniques. We where trying to figure out what elements made hydro so much better than medium-based grows. After figuring that more oxygen in the root zone is the only real advantage of hydro we started on the OBBT.

On top of that DM quit engineering school to become a Horticultural Scientist. He goes to one of the top agricultural colleges in the world. Last I spoke to him at length he was specializing in soil chemistry so as to better understand and refine our grow technique.

Of course that was a year ago. He could have changed his mind and I'm just talking rubbish!:nanana:
 

SilverSurfer_OG

Living Organic Soil...
ICMag Donor
Veteran
Yeah thanks for the considered advice. I checked em this morning before lights out and the Buddah looks happy as larry while the other isnt growing and bit more yellow. Time to rip er out. I just hope she can stretch over to fill in the considerable gap.

Cheers!
 
Divider= fabric!!! It will allow fluids/microbe network to move, keep medium in place and NOT allow the roots to spread.

Fabric dividing walls with a coco mat under it. Now- what fabric, and how to build such things. I almost envision a framework above the tray with the fabric running down and attaching to the bottom. Like little pens. Than fiilling in the rock, mat, and medium inside it.

Anyone want to help "how to it"?

Owww- wanted to mention real quick one thing. I am clearly seeing a distinction here. There is organic hydroponics (what I am doing)- which uses tradional hydro methods incorporating pre-digested available organic nutrients to plants. Microbes are often involved in these systems, but they are not being used as the main feed provider. THEN there is BIOponics, which is using the mircoherd to breakdown, control the grow environment, and ultimately to feed the plant.

The only 2 bioponic systems I seem to have ever heard of is this one and the bio bucket. Very similar in nature actually, the primary difference being the presence of medium in one and not the other.

When I first heard of bioponics a couple years ago I was very intrigued. Couldn't believe what I heard about: 100% organic, no res changes, no ph adjusting, no medium. Large yeilds, high quality, and the most minimal upkeep I had ever heard of. Blew me away- so incredibly effecient on so many levels.

A google search lead me to Big Tokes Bio Bucket 101. A MUST read if you want to get how these things really work, and what makes em so great, as well as a perspective in effecientcy I share.

I tried to figure out how to pre-veg, since that system generally vegs in place. I ran into the same root problem we are talking about here when contemplating a ebb and flow tray always running with net pots hanging from a sheet of styrofoam as the veg for a bio bucket system.

Then when it came time to build current room I was into a biobucket system, but only have 8' of height, and they go tall quick in those buckets. And building the damn thing is like a plumbing project the likes of which I have never even come close to attempting. Plus the heat factor from the water chiller sounded like one more step towards too dicey.

BUT this bath system has to potential to actually be easy to set up (relative) and offers all the same benefits and a few more.

So one last big step: can we get a fabric that will allow plenty of fluid movement/block roots to divide a 4x4 into a 5x5 grid?
 

mrwags

********* Female Seeds
ICMag Donor
Veteran
WE'VE Been experimenting in one way or another to reach this point for about 5 years. Thats out of 7 total years grow experience. It started with organically-spiked coco grows and grew into what is now the OBBT.

We spent a lot of time on the old Overgrow forums trying to reverse-engineer different hydro techniques. We where trying to figure out what elements made hydro so much better than medium-based grows. After figuring that more oxygen in the root zone is the only real advantage of hydro we started on the OBBT.

On top of that DM quit engineering school to become a Horticultural Scientist. He goes to one of the top agricultural colleges in the world. Last I spoke to him at length he was specializing in soil chemistry so as to better understand and refine our grow technique.

Of course that was a year ago. He could have changed his mind and I'm just talking rubbish!:nanana:

Now Lady I think you have your own thread to play in don't ya?

Play nice or don't play at all please. It's obvious you 2 don't like each other but as stated you have your toys and DM has his so you stay on your side of the playground and he can stay on his. OK?


In other words I don't like to edit peoples threads and or posts but must keep the peace as well.


Same post 2 thread now you 2 play nice and leave each others threads alone.

Mr.Wags
 

SilverSurfer_OG

Living Organic Soil...
ICMag Donor
Veteran
Hey Citizen i was thinking about your idea as i watered and sprayed my plants today. I figured you would need some kind of fabric or mesh. Something that wont rot and can be streched tight enough to make solid barrier... :chin:

Great minds think alike. ;)
 

ripman

Member
Hey there, thanks for the impressive thread, it really has cool ideas!
It got me thinking so much, I'd like it to be my next system. What I would like to ask here, is how you would score the solutions I would like to use...

Basically, I was thinking to make a vertical grow with 2 reflectorless 250w CMH in a 2'*3'*7' closet.
The setup would be like this:
- 2'*3'*0,5' plastic box with cover. Used as an enclosure to make water run in it.
- six 12" circular vases, 1 foot high. Here I was considering to use smartpots, what do you think about them? Would they work for this technique or they may let air disperse instead of going through soil?
- 3 feet neoprene airstone inside each smartpot, with a 6 plugs 210 gallon per hour air pump... is this too powerful or the more the better?
- to fill the plastic box and keep water always level with beginning of soil, I'd use one or two smartvalves from autopots
- I was considering as well a water pumps at the bottom of the box to be used with a timer to periodically empty the water and let the hydro roots breathe even more (for periods like 10-15 minutes... what would you think about it? Could it be useful or would it make no difference, even harm the growth?

So what would you say about a system like this? If you say it could work super, I'm going to build it, so I can document one real cool grow! ;)
 
So reading my mind! I just thought of using the same stuff not more then 4 hours ago. They say thats the way the universe works- new ideas in many places at once.

I think that stuff has potential and its cheap. I looked at it before for another use. What we would need is as small piece to test out. I want to see how fast water passes through it. If I am to recirc this thing, it has to allow water movement or I will get a localized over flow over the top of the perlite layer. Might not turn into a full on flood, but I could see it not allowing water to move quick enough. At the same time, the more the water builds, the greater the force for it to try and balance level.

A test is in order.

As for design and attachment: good old handy dandy 3/4" pvc, elbows and tees comes to the rescue again. Pain to put together, but cheap and light. Staple the fabirc strips around the pvc, let hang down to the botton- secure in place with waterproof foil tape. I don't need it to hold forever, just long enough so that each plant can get their root system going. Likewise, i don't need a perfect seal, I just need it good to keep the roots in for awhile.

The question I have now: does the fabric need to go to the bottom of the tray, and be filled in with rock, mat, medium OR would it be better to have the water level free of blockage by the fabric, and put in the rocks and the mat- then have the fabric connect to the mat. I am thinking a simple U shaped metal drip line holder could go right through the fabric and the mat hold it down. Or some sort of attachment like that.

Next!!!!
 

SilverSurfer_OG

Living Organic Soil...
ICMag Donor
Veteran
I think you could get it to work if you keep the roots seperate permenantly. But its all what if until you give it a bash. I think it may be important just to have hydro roots apart... i would think they are stronger and able to get through and choke its neighbour more easily.

Maybe a grid of plastic barriers with small holes but then how small would the holes have to be to keep roots at bay? You could have that at the base and solid plastic walls glued on top to seperate the soil/perlite.

I think its a better and simpler idea to just keep it one plant per box and have say 10 big plants. Less of a security risk also. Maybe in smaller spaces it would be easier to have one big box with many plants.

I do like the idea of a res that is pumped around. A design more like the biobuckets with a feeder line for all buckets from main res.

But for all the time it takes to water and feed weekly i dont think its worth the hassle setting up unless you going real big. :2cents:
 

OrganicMeds

Member
I think this is a great way to grow & will be very rewarding when you have it all worked out!

I'm building 2 bucket's, which will run clones of Purple Pakistani Chitral from ACE :)

I grow organically anyway (mostly Worm castings & tea's) so this should be an easy jump....

What air stones are the best for this kind of system in everyone's experiences?
 
The how to keep em seperate while in one big pool is quite a challenge. I think it is doable though.

Look at NFT and large aeroponic systems- all plants in one tube/reservoir with their roots all mixing. BUT they start seperated enough that by the time they meet they are all fairly up and running. We don't need to keep em sealed in, just enough for them to get established. Once they touch the nutrient they are going to blow up like they are in DWC, or like the explosion that happens when they are in aero and they touch the nutrient.

Know what I mean?

I plan on starting from clone for my mother tray, but in flowering application they will already be coming out of a 5" coco/perlite from an ebb and flow tray nice and established. That should help too.

When I first looked at DM's design and realized it had to be modified to take to a larger application (and we are not talking huge here, just more then 10) the first thing I thought of was "this thing needs to recirculate in order to keep it regulated evenly at all times". I know the nutrient will move around without recirc- but the O2 might not be so even. Plus by moving it and having a res the water level of the tray is always the same. I am thinking it probably does not have to be moved all that much- slow. And it might only need to be cycled .

Alas i do need to build one to put this all to the test, for now it's all conjecture. I do find though that really thinking a system through and bouncing ideas off folks before doing anything is helpful to getting a practical model faster.

Weed fabric from Home Depot is in the lead. Anyone want to venture clever ways for securing this to either coco mat or the bottom of a tray? Clever suspension tricks?

I upgraded my PVC scaffold idea for hanging the fabric from. Now I am thinking I can simply run a grid of wire and suspend the fabric from it with little clips. It just holds cloth which is surrounded by medium, so it really doesn't have to be too structurally secure. Attach the wire to edges of the tray just like a trellis. Bingo- done.

Right now I am leaning toward rocks, then mat, then fabric walls attatched to the mat, then medium. Letting the flood level and below be free of barriers seems like it will keep the fabric from potentially interfering with the flow of water/O2 and elinimate flood risk.

I can see it being a pain in the ass to get it done the first time, securing all these fabric flaps. But the rest is all so easy. And you might not have to change your medium for several runs or even longer. So you may not do it all that often really In the mean time it saves you from so much other maintenance that its well worth it in the long run.
 

rrog

Active member
Veteran
Citizen. You've been very cool with working on this re-circ idea. You remember my little grow. 24" x 30" x 9" deep tote with three 1 gallon "net pots" resting in holes in the res lit. All sealed with gaskets. Then I was dripping Chem.

Reading your post and PM, are you suggesting that I could convert that bottom res to the total aquatic layer. That's where the rocks (Hydroton) would be as well as the bubblers. The three 1 gallon pots are sitting within an inch of that maintained waterline? And the bottom res would have roots from all three plants dangling in it?
 

rrog

Active member
Veteran
What air stones are the best for this kind of system in everyone's experiences?

This is what has me most vexed. I hear DM mentioning that the roots stayed away from the air stones, but I also picture a giant wad of root with 2 airstones embedded. It would be interesting if a 1" air bubbling layer was all the way on the bottom of a 5 gal pail. That 1" depth had air pumping in to an air mat. I assume there's such a thing. So the bottom 1" section is a serious bubbler. No roots to channel the air in limited directions. It's a complete 1" deep x 10" wide circle of air bubbles.

This air bubble layer is separated from the rocks/Hydroton layer above with Landscape Fabric. The total water depth is maybe 5".

This would seem to allow the air better access to the whole underside of the system, not just two areas around the two bubblers.

The landscape fabric could be friction fit in place with a piece of round stainless steel spring steel. Like a crochet ring thing. So it's really tight to the sides of the pail = no roots sneaking in to the 1" air bubble layer. Maybe a couple of supports under the fabric to maintain that 1".

I dunno, just thinking of maybe a better way to freely bubble upwards.
 
the earth box is exactly what this is just without the air stones. I might just go by alot of earth boxes and try to figure how many i can setup under 1k. All i would have to do is just add the air stones to them and i have a obbt setup.
 
My thinking might also be to have a large tray, with the flood level in it as I have already described. Nothing in tray, just a 4" flood. Fill the tray with Rubbermaid containers with lots of holes in them(the 18 gallon one that lots of people do soil in- or something roughly a foot by a foot, but tall). I guess even 5 gallon buckets would work. Place rock, air pump, coco mat, medium in the containers. Place all the containers in the constantly running tray.

Now we have a recircing tray with a bunch of individual bath tubs in it with their own air stones. No root mingling. All sharing one moving solution. Want to pack them in tight to keep it all together. It will evap more water then one would like, and it will warm up. It might be good to displace as much empty space in the tray as possible- fill any holes so the water stays in the buckets rather then out and exposed. Considerations to be evaluated.

EDIT EDIT EDIT: place containers in tray and fill all remaining space in tray with 4-6"s of Hydroton. This will displace space, and create an extra 2"s of cover over the pool, preventing evap loss.

The perfect container: I used to see these 4 gallon tall square buckets used in the food industry. They would be perfect. Don't know how to get them .. . yet.

That is fairly simple, and could work.

RROG: I am looking at the 12" air stones in the tray channels if one large system with fabric walls (I am officially moving away from that idea already). Cheap, easily replaced, and plenty o bubbles. The circular ones seem cool, but I wonder how much they cost, and if they are actually any better. Might be for a bucket vs. a tub container.

If I am looking at containers instead, I would like to split one air line with a T to make it go to two containers, each with a 6" stone in it. Otherwise I am looking at having to power 25 air lines w/ pumps, instead this way I will only have 13. And with the power of the largest EcoPlus air pump I should be able to run a good number of lines, and control flows.

I don't think the root mat fabric would be good to try and run air through. Not porous enough, but thats the point. Coco mat yes, fabric no. The fabric though is good foor making vertical walls.

I am thinking you could do it two ways:

1) Use your rez for the recirc (you would probably only put a couple gallons in total anyhow, just enough to flood and then maybe a gallon or two in the res) make 1 large three plant tray divided by fabric walls. Feed it with a small pump from underneath, use 1/2 hose. Have it reach a T fitting on the side of the planter box wall, divide into 2 inlets that filter down through the medium in the corners, keeping the inlet about the flood line.
Be sure to properly filter the return drain to catch debris.

2) Exact same set up, except several containers within the same sized container you would use for #1. Have a fill hose come into the top of the tray above the flood depth. It will never overflow siphon should your pump turn off with this set up. This time though, add three smaller containers (which still need to be like 10-12" height wise for grow space, so maybe 14-16" total), each with the whole set up in it. Try to fill the whole tray, leave as little gaps as possible. Fill what gaps remain with 4-6"s of Hydroton (growrocks).

I am leaning heavily for #2 right now. Seems simplest, and best.

I SOLVED THE MULTIPLE PLANT PROBLEM!!!!!!!
 
Last edited:
rrog:

I think you are seriously over-thinking the bubblers. A simple trapazoidal 12 inch air stone was pleanty good enough for an eight gallon OBBT that ran a tomato plant for 5 months. Something similar would be overkill for a 5 gallon setup.

You have to remember the quantity of air we are dealing with. Even very small air pumps are rated for more than 50 gallons of water. Even a very big OBBT would only have about 3 gallons worth of bath. If you've got a decent air pump it should be rated for more than a thousand gallons. Basically we are using brute force to get enough air into the tubs. Restrictions, dense root balls and other problems that you seem to think are huge in reality are negligible because of this. Just get a good simple air-stone and if in doubt get an over-sized air pump. That will be all you ever need to run many OBBTs.

Citizen024:

Holy shit man! In the course of less than two weeks you have mentally transformed the OBBT from a humble single-plant organic gardening system to something with the potential to be a huge game-changer in the world of en-masse cannabis cultivation. The multiple small containers in a single massive flood table (Idea # 2) just sounds extraordinary! I can't wait to see some documentation on the process once you finally begin construction. I never imagined that the OBBTs would have been taken this far when I first started this thread. Can't thank you guys enough!

Good luck and happy gardening!
 

rrog

Active member
Veteran
EDIT EDIT EDIT: place containers in tray and fill all remaining space in tray with 4-6"s of Hydroton. This will displace space, and create an extra 2"s of cover over the pool, preventing evap loss.

2) Exact same set up, except several containers within the same sized container you would use for #1. Have a fill hose come into the top of the tray above the flood depth. It will never overflow siphon should your pump turn off with this set up. This time though, add three smaller containers (which still need to be like 10-12" height wise for grow space, so maybe 14-16" total), each with the whole set up in it. Try to fill the whole tray, leave as little gaps as possible. Fill what gaps remain with 4-6"s of Hydroton (growrocks).

Great thoughts running around here. I'm grateful to be here at this time and place.

I'm wondering if my growing three plants would actually benefit from a re-circ system. If I had three 5-gallon pails in a full out OBBT system, then I'm only supplying water. Not so precious a commodity that I can't afford to run it to waste.

If I wanted to automate the system so that I could leave it alone for a few days, I would have to supply water a few times a day I suppose, and collect the waste from overflow.

Am I now under-thinking this? Could I build a system that is this straightforward?
 

rrog

Active member
Veteran
rrog:

I think you are seriously over-thinking the bubblers. A simple trapazoidal 12 inch air stone was pleanty good enough for an eight gallon OBBT that ran a tomato plant for 5 months. Something similar would be overkill for a 5 gallon setup.

Basically we are using brute force to get enough air into the tubs. Restrictions, dense root balls and other problems that you seem to think are huge in reality are negligible because of this. Just get a good simple air-stone and if in doubt get an over-sized air pump. That will be all you ever need to run many OBBTs.

Thanks for letting a newb entertain a couple of thoughts.

It's not the quantity of air that I'm exploring. As you say, you don't need much, and I understand that. What I'm looking at is the even-ness of the air distribution. I think I'm envisioning a much more dense root ball that would inhibit even airflow up the system to the organic layer. I have this mental image of air bubbles rising in a very narrow channel, limiting exposure to air somewhere else.

I have to keep in mind that the majority of the root ball is moist but still exposed to air. The O2 in the air is a lot higher concentration than the O2 in the water will ever be. The primary source of O2 is the air in this system, no?
 

rrog

Active member
Veteran
Regarding 5 gallon pails, I'd like to get a few black ones. I haven't researched this yet, but I assume teas, etc are percolated in black pails also? So aside from the three black pails for three plants, should I get a few more for brewing teas?

Also, I'm looking at overflow fittings, etc. Is 1/2" pipe OK?
 

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